What do you think of the effectiveness of Musket/Artillery fire?

[OneEyeMick]

Tell me what you think of the effectiveness of the musket and artillery fire.

[Genosse]

Haven't played enough to say, I'll vote after a couple MP battles. Have to say riflery seems extremely potent, though I suppose it was in reality by that time.

[FilipVonZietek]

Some of the lowest shots per hit ratios in 19th century were around 50 shots.
During 1860s it varied betwean 150-250 on avarge.

[DaVinci]

Some of the lowest shots per hit ratios in 19th century were around 50 shots.
During 1860s it varied betwean 150-250 on avarge.

What exactly does this mean ... your expression is not explainable (for me at least). Can you elaborate it? ... just for the modder who asks for help in this matter.

[FilipVonZietek]

It means that

1 per 50 shots hit the target

At Rorkes drift altough most firing took place on rather shor ranges brits fired around 50 shots to kill or wound 1 zulu warrior. Also battlefield wasn't covered in as much smoke as in regular battles which allowed more acecurate fire.

During franco prussian war prussians fired on avarge 250 shots to hit single person.

During civil war it could be as low as 150 from what i ve red which is rather good for this time.



Currently in the mod 10 shots or less are needed to hit single target. Unit of 225 will proably kill more than 25 with full volley at 150 meters.

I will give you a life example from prusso danish war where 2 small units (similiar to mod sizes) engaged.
180 danes (armed with rifled msukets) charged bit small force of prussians (armed wit dreyse needle gun). Prussians opened fire at 250 meters cousing danes to halt at 150 meters and deploying into firing line. Firefight lasted 20 minutes, in the process danes lost 40% men.

Other issue is very high morale. Units should rout and rally often and quickly. Routs should represent repulses and units beeing forced back. Currently units can suffer 50% casulties before routing. Unit that last over 50% is nearly useless and destroyed anyway. That makes morale system nearly usless.



If you want i can make a small db patch for you with moded units speeds,morale and weapon acecuracy based on real data. If you play Scourge of war gettysburg, Sid Meiers gettysburg etc you will notice that those games play complealty difreant from your mod.

[Good ole Reb]

Based on just a couple of custom battles (I haven't gotten very far in campaign yet) the musketry seems to be just fine, but I felt the artillery was a bit under powered.

However, that's being influenced by the devastating effect of arty in FotS. I'll test the artillery a bit more and try to offer some more useful feedback.

[FilipVonZietek]

Musketery is nowhere near fine if the gameplay is supposed to be at least a bit realistic.

[OneEyeMick]

Thanks FilipVonZietek for the comments.

The game needs to strike a balance between gameplay and realism. Battles would take too long to complete in some instances. But be assured, by what people are saying accuracy may be reduced slightly. Morale, I am sure, will be tweaked over time as well with the help of comments like yours.
I own a replica 1861 springfield and it is very accurate. I can easily shoot a man sized target at 100 yards with it not to mention an entire rank of men. I know this doesnt take into account many, many variables that come into play on the battlefield like loss of gunpowder, improperly loading the musket, shoulder to shoulder shooting, stress of battle, and so on. but these weapons were accurate.

If comment slike yours from others start pouring in more consideration will be put into it.

[FilipVonZietek]

Weapon acecuracy isnt really that relevant when it come to battle. Napoleonic era musket were able of hiting a man at 100 meters but in battle they needed 500 shots for that. Smoke, stress etc made reliable weapon worthless. Modern guns are acecurate and what 50 000 shot per kill in vietnam, 20 000 in wwII and 10 000 in iraq and afghanistan

About the battle lenght

150 men firing at 150 meters would hit 3/150 per minute. In 25 minutes units would lose half their streanght which in terms of single engagement would be a near an obliteration.
But than morale and acecuracy scaling over range comes in. First thing is units should rout more often and more easily due to lower casulties, the otehr thing is at 100 or 75 meters rifle fire would become much more effective shortening to firefights dramaticly. Also there is artillery that supports ifnantry. So if you want a quick breaktrough you close in to 75 meters and support atack with artillery. When enemy is wavaering you deliver a bayonet charge. Such atack would take few minutes with the low casulties and proepr morale system.


Current gameplay encourages mindless frontal engagement where flanking etc is nearly useless becouse units can be oblitarated within a minute of firefight.

[OneEyeMick]

And that was a point I did make in my comment.

[Genosse]

Actually, I'm inclined to concur on the morale system - if you play the old tiller battleground ACW series, units will rout if constantly engaged, recover morale, undisrupt, so it's sort of cyclical as a commander rests engaged units in favor of reserves. I'm certainly not a complete ACW history expert, but Filip's thoughts seem credible.

[shokh]

The calculations above are not really correct.

If 150 men firing at 150 men and kill 3/minute, then this killratio will fall down because of lesser men left to fire each minute. and lesser targets who can be hit. When we only consider the first value then it would be:
150 men kill 3/min
100 men kill 2/min
50 men kill 1/min
Keep in mind that the morale is droping way slower when the killratio is going down. So when we say with the current ratio a unit is rooting at 50 men, they would stay till they reach 35 men now.
So we have 50 kills (150-100) in 20 minutes (2,5 kills/minute avarage) and another 50 (100-50) in rounded down 33 minutes (1,5 kills/minute avarage). We are now at 53 minutes, and they still not routing when both situations are following the same procedure.
Thats way too long in my opinion.

A second aspect have to be considered, gunfights compared to artillery kill ratio and melee kill/defence ratio. This three things must stay balanced to each other.

The morale system always can need some tweeks, but it is not that good in ETW when it comes to raily rooted troops. Here whe have to differ between player and BAI. A player can manage this things simple better.
Also you have to keep in mind that morale have many possbile events who affect it. Level of your general and the opposite, flanks of the unit, inspiring troops, position on the battlefield, kill/death ratio and many more. Small changes can lead to big changes ingame.

And last but not least, we have to do a compromise between historic correct facts and gameplay.
So the focus of my balancing was to find the way between to slow and to fast kill ratios, a comprimise as said to satisfying most of the users. And also in this balances i taken care that situations which may give the player unfair advantages over the BAI can not happen that much then in vanilla for example.

That is what this mod is, it should make fun. It is for sure not a real simulation.

Artillery and mounted melee combat will get the first adjustments, after that with an eye one the whole situation then tweeks can be done to the infantry if needed.
For me it feels that you have enough time in the battle to flank an use other tactics till your first front line breaks. Some reserve units help a lot here.
And you have to see how much units you have to face when the campaign is fixed and the real CAI variables are then working because of the campaign fix. You will find you have a hard time when your opponent pull out a full stack and more every turn.

[aurther]

well so far charges are useless, no one makes it to the line with any sort of strength. one of my normal union infantry decamated 2 units of calv as they tried to charge. they just mowed them down no calv reached the line.

at first I voted I thought it was fine but more I play I wish the damage was dropped a bit and the moral tweaked, I would prefer if troops routed a little easier but were able to regroup if they got back a little bit. as it stands the lowest confed troop will withstand a flank/rear calv attack. while engaged with musketfire in the front and they will fight until about dead then shatter.

I think it is more realistic if that unit would route get back behind their lines and reform with decent moral again.

[shokh]

These are two things which will for sure get an adjustment. Mounted units and the increase in accuracy by lowering range. This increase is atm too much.

[A_Major_Threat]

The standard issue Union rifle was accurate up to 370 meters (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Springfield_Model_1861). The British enfield on the other hand was the most used weapon in the confederacy and was even more accurate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pattern_1853_Enfield). This information is clearly cited from original sources.

Sorry for double post but on a side note, I agree that battles end far too quickly with 20 versus 20, but the casualty rates seem fine, the problem is the limited number of soldiers. I resolve it by playing with 50 - 60 unit armies.

Edit: merged double-post... MM

[OneEyeMick]

The old battleground series by talonsoft is good. I still play itso I know exactly what you mean. Having units rout more often and regroup will probably confuse the AI a lot and they will attack piece meal instead of fully regrouping and attacking again. Balances to gameplay will be made throughout future patches including morale and accuracy to help relism and gamplay the best we can.

[delmat]

I think both muskets&artillery are fine as they are..this is a game after all not a 19th century war simulation..no need to complicate with unecessary things as long as the battles are playable and fun and realistic as they could be (and they are)..
I know this is not a current topic, the same game, engine, era or even a similiar kind of warfare&battles, but for example that's the only thing I don't like about wonderful mods like Roma Surrectum for RTW (everything great and then battles that last an hour with 2 men stabbing and kicking each other for like 30 times until one of them dies..I know this is realistic but come on, I want to play a game and enjoy myself after a hard day, not to lose a precious hour to just one boring battle)..20, 30 to maximum 40 minutes per battle are more than enough to enjoy it, everything else is just for "hard core realistic" fans with a lot of spare time
battle system for this mod is very good in my opinion and I see no need to much tackle with it (in the meaning of possible radical readjustement of current musket&arty fire)..rather to focus on some other mod content (new units, returning the old units (sharpshooters, engineers, hampton's legion etc..) or improving stability&minimalizing CTD's and maybe slightly reducing those smoke effects or making them optional as they can really cause slow-downs in battles, despite they look very good and atmospherical
my regards to you guys and keep up the good work!

[FilipVonZietek]

If you want a fast games scale time 2:1 or 3:1 but for gods sake keep it related to real data.

Seems like you have compelatly no clue about designing proper battle mechanics design. This way you can go on changing stats forever becouse you have no base to relate too. Also i don't see how people interested in civil war era warfare want to play something that has nothing do with it, ah wait those people actually avoid total war and play good games.

[shokh]

Critic is nice and i never avoided to discuss on such things. But if you can´t keep a friendly level then it would be better to stay away. Like no one insulted you for false maths here.

At the end it comes not down what i feel better. or you or any other single person. Depending on the feedback we gather in different ways on different places we have to find the settings which covers best the feeling of most players.

[FilipVonZietek]

Normal unit should rout well before reciving 50% casulties but if you want units keep fighting where they stand untill they have 50/150 men left than sure that realsitic casulty rates wont work. With realsitic casulty rates you need realistic fragile morale.
And none sayes you can close in to for example 75 meters but it seems to hard for you to consider in your gameplay design. You made max range so deadly that closing in is fuitile.

And if thats to slow for you just ame 1 minute in game be 2-3 real minutes and voila.

Enjoy.