Starting Money/Incomes/Levies

**ulti** · May 11, 2012, 06:44 AM

Starting Incomes/Promotion Money

Weekly Incomes

Land Incomes for Nobles

The Westerlands

The Reach

Dorne

The Riverlands

The Vale of Arynn

The Crownlands

The North

The Stormlands

The Iron Islands

The Wall

Beyond the Wall

Land Income Map

Province Fleet Levy

Westeros - Total Levy 1320

The Iron Islands - Total Levy 400

The Reach - Total Levy 300

Dorne - Total Levy 150

The Crownlands - Total Levy 110

The Stormlands - Total Levy 100

The Westerlands - Total Levy 100

The Vale - Total Levy 50

The Riverlands - Total Levy 40

The North - Total Levy 30

Beyond The Wall - Total Levy 0

The Wall - Total Levy 30

Provincial Manpower Levy

The Reach - Total Levy 142,500

The Riverlands - Total Levy 115,000

The Westerlands - Total Levy 100,000

The North - Total Levy 90,000

The Stormlands - Total Levy 75,000

The Vale of Arynn - Total Levy 70,000

The Crownlands - Total Levy 57,500

Dorne - Total Levy 50,000

The Iron Isles - Total Levy 23,500

The Nights Watch - Total Levy 4000

Beyond the Wall - Total Levy 60,000

We the mods feel that these are nicely done with good numbers as per lore and a small amount of balancing, so it's up to you guys. If you no likey, firstly I'll prick you with a fork so you bleed slowly to death, then I might listen to your input

**Narf** · May 11, 2012, 07:47 AM

I want to start out with saying it is really well made. It looks like a hell of a lot of work and I love it overall. REALLY well done.

The Income did you take and look at each individual region? And then looked at the Wiki for that region as to determine their income?

I have a problem wit the Fleet and Army sizes though.
For example Many of the fleets are too big. The Royal fleet look good. I'll give you that, but The Irons Islands have too many Warships in one regard and simply too few ships in another.
400 is too many warships taking they have almost one hundred. They have too few if you take transport, Raiding ships, Longships. they have around 400-900 of those.
The Arbor fleet is much too small as it states many places they The Redwynes have:
"two hundred warships, and five times as many merchant carracks, wine cogs, trading galleys, and whalers"
So more Warships there, Less Warships to the Irons Islands, but much more smaller ships.
Many of the lords have Many too many ships as according to GRRM a major house like a Lannister will have no more than 20/30 Semi-warships..
Also The Arbor And Oldtown and Kingslanding+ surrounding rural areas have too few men, If there lives as many people in Vintown as there does in Highgarden a Levy of 5000 to the whole of Arbor is much too small. Oldtown being one of the Oldest and largest cities also have much too few levies.

There is other details. But I'll look over it again later.

Later:

Also I am Scratching my head as to why The Twins have 10,000 men.

In the series Robb Stark get men from the twins and the twins leave 400 back at the keep. Robb had 18,000 when he came after he crossed he sent 2,000 against Tywin Lannister and after that he had: 18,000 men. Which means, That he got 2,000 men from The Twins. And if there was 400 at the twins to keep it safe. Then: The twins have 2400 men. but to make it easy 2500 is cool.

**ulti** · May 11, 2012, 08:45 AM

Originally Posted by Narf

I want to start out with saying it is really well made. It looks like a hell of a lot of work and I love it overall. REALLY well done.

The Income did you take and look at each individual region? And then looked at the Wiki for that region as to determine their income?

Majonga did the incomes, he based it mainly off lore. Though the distributions between the provinces may not be accurate specifically to lore.

I have a problem wit the Fleet and Army sizes though.
For example Many of the fleets are too big. The Royal fleet look good. I'll give you that, but The Irons Islands have too many Warships in one regard and simply too few ships in another.
400 is too many warships taking they have almost one hundred. They have too few if you take transport, Raiding ships, Longships. they have around 400-900 of those.

This was done for balancing reasons. Most of this is done to lore, however if you notice the Iron Isles rank bottom (by far) in both Income and Manpower. To offset this, their ship levy is extremely high, much higher than anyone else. Also take into account that in this there is only one type of ship - warship. There are no trading galleys, raiding ships etc. Thus, according to lore, a ship of the Iron Fleet could take on any other type of ship in the books, however due to all ships being the same, to keep to lore there must be more of the Iron Fleet. Also in lore, whilst the Iron Fleet makes up the main fleet, the Greyjoys can call on all their banners to supply many, many more ships. Thus 400.

The Arbor fleet is much too small as it states many places they

The Redwynes have:
"two hundred warships, and five times as many merchant carracks, wine cogs, trading galleys, and whalers"
So more Warships there, Less Warships to the Irons Islands, but much more smaller ships.

Again, balancing reasons. The Arbor is part of the reach, with high income + manpower. As such their ship levy is lower. Plus we're not giving any one region 200 warships, this is just ridiculous, I'm sorry. If you notice, I already made a new category for the Arbor - you have 75 ships, very high considering the rest of the places.

Many of the lords have Many too many ships as according to GRRM a major house like a Lannister will have no more than 20/30 Semi-warships..

Balancing reasons again etc etc. Things have to be adjusted - the ranking of power is similar to the book but I have to have leniency here.

Also The Arbor And Oldtown and Kingslanding+ surrounding rural areas have too few men, If there lives as many people in Vintown as there does in Highgarden a Levy of 5000 to the whole of Arbor is much too small. Oldtown being one of the Oldest and largest cities also have much too few levies.

Everything you see has been based on overall manpower for the 8 regions. Once we have a figure, we fit the provinces to fit that quota. To be honest, it doesn't really matter in the end, because no one province is going to hold out against any other. It's all part of the system. We're not going to spend hours and hours researching the manpower of each place, it's simply not feasible with the info and not worth it. Most of the battles we will be seeing will be the houses against each other, not small regions against each other. Thus why we based it on the main regions.

Also I am Scratching my head as to why The Twins have 10,000 men.

In the series Robb Stark get men from the twins and the twins leave 400 back at the keep. Robb had 18,000 when he came after he crossed he sent 2,000 against Tywin Lannister and after that he had: 18,000 men. Which means, That he got 2,000 men from The Twins. And if there was 400 at the twins to keep it safe. Then: The twins have 2400 men. but to make it easy 2500 is cool.

See above.

**Adamat** · May 11, 2012, 08:26 AM

I think it's very good.

**Narf** · May 11, 2012, 08:53 AM

No offence then, if this is both made for balance and made for the larger Houses, then what point is there in playing a minor house? I think it is worth researching each region, to give a more flavoured and correct overall world of westeros. This is. really good if we only played with the Major houses. But in our game we need to take away balance and properly make a secondary ship type as it is such a big part of the lore.

I can't support this yet.

But. I admire the work in it. And It is a good base to work from. Balance just don't belong here.

**ulti** · May 11, 2012, 09:01 AM

Narf, do you realise how many regions there are, and how little information there is? I for one do not have hours upon end to research every region, maybe some do. If you, or someone else wants to do so and provide a list of which region should get what whilst keeping within the bounds we have set, fine, do so. But until then, this is the solution.

And to be honest Narf, one class of ship would work fine, any more and things are going to get massively confused. We only have one unit type in battles, and they are much more prominent than sea battles. Please think about what you're asking - for the Arbor to have 200 ships alone, to have high manpower AND to have high income. I'm sorry, but that is not going to happen. No one, even if lore says they do, is going to have high everything, like you wish for the Arbor.

And you know it's not just made for balance, Lore has gone into this - we revised the levies three times due to Lore, the incomes for each area are based on lore. But this is a game, and we have to balance it somewhat otherwise people who are powerful are just going to get more and more powerful, with no way in for those who aren't powerful. Exactly what I feel happened in GSTK.

**Narf** · May 11, 2012, 09:14 AM

I am against balance.

The secondary ships type could be a simple thing like, 5 to take one Warship. This would make it easier for smaller houses to afford ships as-well.

The things that make the different Houses Special is what makes it feel like Westeros.

With the rules above without listening to, criticism, Is a game for the Major Houses. And all the unique things about the world have been dumped down.

Originally Posted by Narf

Oh god oh god. Do NOT balance the game. Do not make Rules to play by make rules that make it easier to play.

Balance in a Setting as Westeros is : Bad

Like it is in RP HOW do you balance Avada Kadavra? You don't it just kills. And That is how it should be. DO not put limits on trading routes DO NOT balance troop numbers. But give what sounds realistic for each of the regions. As with Income. Give what sounds realistic for each region, Not some set number for each region that sounds Fair. It makes taking new places uninteresting. As it will be the EXACT SAME as the ones you have. It will ruin all strategy there is in only being able to take income from two places.

Like if any of you have played civilization. Would it be FUN if all the hexes had the same grassland? No. there is different hexes with more or less valuable resources, and hexes that give special soldiers. Rare places that makes for good defending positions. Ect Ect, Ect, I will object STRONGLY If the regions are even the slightest alike. Because in a world like this where the regions are as different as they are that would be a crime. Flat out mutilation of the genre.

This post got 6 reps. It speaks favour that people wish for diversity and balance through the unbalance.

I am rather sad that my words are taken as if I was attacking you or your work. I'm not, It is great, you too, but I'd prefer a more diverse world.

And you know it's not just made for balance, Lore has gone into this - we revised the levies three times due to Lore, the incomes for each area are based on lore. But this is a game, and we have to balance it somewhat otherwise people who are powerful are just going to get more and more powerful, with no way in for those who aren't powerful. Exactly what I feel happened in GSTK.

No because In this game there is a thing that balances it strongly. A Person can only have two regions active. The King 3. Making the snowball effect from GSTK unlikely.

**ulti** · May 11, 2012, 09:19 AM

Narf, I have tried to accomadate this stuff - you have 75 ships for the Arbor, more than any other individual province in the entire game. How is this ignoring the houses' unique traits? Similarly, the Iron Islands are known for being THE dominant power on the seas, thus their massive ship levy.

Numbers of individual provinces can change I suppose, but I am loath to make any house, Major or Minor too powerful in all aspects. The Westerlands have their gold, the Reach has their men etc. Petition the mods as you are doing if you want one thing changed, but I'm only going to make one aspect for each province powerful, not two or three.

I know you're against balance, but there must be some. Trust me.

**~~Dance2~~** · May 11, 2012, 09:39 AM

I think people need to realize that balance for this type of RPG is necessary. I'm sorry to say, but GRRM made the Arbor a minor house FOR A REASON. If not, he would have made it like the Iron Islands.

All this is, is Narf trying to gain superiority over other players. It's as simple as that. I support balance, as do the 4 moderators of this RPG. They have already made it clear they will not unblanace it.

**Narf** · May 11, 2012, 09:47 AM

The Iron Fleet is not the Dominent Power of the Sea. The Redwyne is. This is a thing MANY people don't realise. And that is because the Iron Fleet have a Larger Presence, they have a larger reputation because the Redwyne fleet is only used in Wars, It was the Redwyne fleet that defeated the Iron fleet and allowed invasion of the Iron Islands.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

The longships make the bulk of the ironborn strength, and they exist in plenty despite the more peaceable turn of the last centuries because the ironborn place enormous pride and stock in owning ships — after all, they say every captain is a king aboard his ship — and doubtless because the vessels are used for trade and fishing and other such activities instead of (or in addition to) reaving. But the real backbone of the ironborn fleet? The Iron Fleet, which is made up of hybrid galleys, probably clinker-built not so large as the war galleys of the Redwyne fleet but some are as big as the ones in the Royal Fleet.

So going from being able to take on the Iron fleet in a battle to having no chance whatsoever is a BIG.... Major change.

And I am seeing this SOME places.

I understand your logic, but you must also see how it destroy what could have made it feel like westeros.

Originally Posted by Dance

I think people need to realize that balance for this type of RPG is necessary. I'm sorry to say, but GRRM made the Arbor a minor house FOR A REASON. If not, he would have made it like the Iron Islands.

All this is, is Narf trying to gain superiority over other players. It's as simple as that. I support balance, as do the 4 moderators of this RPG. They have already made it clear they will not unblanace it.

I think that is Unfair to say. I took the Redwynes knowing nothing about them. If I had chosen to be Lord of the Twins I'd also have argued That I have gotten too many men.

**~~Dance2~~** · May 11, 2012, 09:56 AM

Double

**Narf** · May 11, 2012, 09:59 AM

Originally Posted by Dance

If you want unbalanced, then I want 500,000,000 gold dragons for Dorne, and a naval beginning force of 10,000 war ships, 25,000 destroyers, and a standing army of, you said Dorne is 10 millionright? Cool. I want 5,000,000 soldiers. Every able-bodied person is a registered reserve in my country. Okay deal?

This is why there's need of balance.

I might take a comment many of you have said before, "We can RP how we like".

Well okay, I'm RPing like this. 500 million gold dragons, and 5 million soldiers, with 10,000 warships.

Everyone cool with that?

It is cool if you can find a place that states your not just pulling these numbers out of the blue. Also I do not appreciate the way you mock me.

**~~Dance2~~** · May 11, 2012, 09:57 AM

If you want unbalanced, then I want 500,000,000 gold dragons for Dorne, and a naval beginning force of 10,000 war ships, 2,500 destroyers, and a standing army of, you said Dorne is 10 millionright? Cool. I want 5,000,000 soldiers. Every able-bodied person is a registered reserve in my country. Okay deal?

This is why there's need of balance.

I might take a comment many of you have said before, "We can RP how we like".

Well okay, I'm RPing like this. 500 million gold dragons, and 5 million soldiers, with 10,000 warships.

Everyone cool with that?

EDIT: The source of my income is the mystical gold mines discovered in the mountainous regions near the Prince's pass. I can RP how I want. Unbalanced.

**ulti** · May 11, 2012, 10:00 AM

So what am I meant to have then? If you, a single province, has the strongest fleet, whist I, 8 provinces have no cash, no men, and a fleet which can't even beat a province?

If that's how it's going to be, I'm just going to leave now as there's no point, I'm just going to get beat every single time. See the problem here? There has to be balance.

Originally Posted by Dance

If you want unbalanced, then I want 500,000,000 gold dragons for Dorne, and a naval beginning force of 10,000 war ships, 2,500 destroyers, and a standing army of, you said Dorne is 10 millionright? Cool. I want 5,000,000 soldiers. Every able-bodied person is a registered reserve in my country. Okay deal?

This is why there's need of balance.

I might take a comment many of you have said before, "We can RP how we like".

Well okay, I'm RPing like this. 500 million gold dragons, and 5 million soldiers, with 10,000 warships.

Everyone cool with that?

EDIT: The source of my income is the mystical gold mines discovered in the mountainous regions near the Prince's pass. I can RP how I want. Unbalanced.

There is absolutely no need for that. Once again, you're being argumentative and hostile. You have no right to mock someone who is simply questioning and debating a point, especially if you want to be hyperbolic and take things way out of proportion.

**Narf** · May 11, 2012, 10:11 AM

Originally Posted by ulti

So what am I meant to have then? If you, a single province, has the strongest fleet, whist I, 8 provinces have no cash, no men, and a fleet which can't even beat a province?

Not really but let us look at it in the shadow view. This is why it dosn't work. How come My flet the Strongest is suddenly nullified that is not very fun for me either.

Out of shadow view.
The thing is you CAN beat the Arbor you can't beat their War fleet. The thing they did in a war was, because they have so many ships. They lured the big war fleet away and they still had enough ships to sail to the Arbor and take the Arbor and loot it completely. You have enough ships to be actively looting the entire west coast. That is not very poor. Also the Redwyne fleet can't spread out because if they do they'll be taken out by the Iron Fleet which have strength in the hit and run. AND THAT is why you should have loads of ships.

**~~Dance2~~** · May 11, 2012, 10:11 AM

Originally Posted by ulti

There is absolutely no need for that. Once again, you're being argumentative and hostile. You have no right to mock someone who is simply questioning and debating a point, especially if you want to be hyperbolic and take things way out of proportion.

Scenario planned:
I'm not. I'm stating people want to "RP" how they like, well I'm doing it. In 297 AL, Dorne discovered massive amounts of Goldmines in their mountains, that they had no idea were there before, now they are becoming a power hub.

After one year of mining gold, Prince Oberyn sends word to his brother, Doran, and convinces him to send to the Free Cities (especially Norvos to which his brother's wife is from), and informs them they will pay large sums of gold for paid work force (as to avoid the no slavery law in Westeros).

Prince Doran then immediately dispatches men throughout Dorne to recruit the necessary able bodied work force, and begins training them, hence tripling the army from 50,000 to 150,000.

Why can I not do this? Since 297+ is RP, they recently just discovered the Gold Mines. Who says if the Lannisters have the same amount of mountains, that nothing lies between the ones my people control? Newly discovered.

**Narf** · May 11, 2012, 10:17 AM

Because if the gold was not found in the thousands of years that pre-dates this game and is not mentioned in the wiki or books or magazines then it is not. When the buildings are up maybe we can do a minirel shearch roll that cost XX Gold dragons with a chance of finding Iron ect. ect. ect. But what you are is still mocking me. I am not pulling things out of the blue as you are.

**~~Dance2~~** · May 11, 2012, 10:24 AM

Originally Posted by Narf

Because if the gold was not found in the thousands of years that pre-dates this game and is not mentioned in the wiki or books or magazines then it is not. When the buildings are up maybe we can do a minirel shearch roll that cost XX Gold dragons with a chance of finding Iron ect. ect. ect. But what you are is still mocking me. I am not pulling things out of the blue as you are.

No, that puts a balance on it. I don't want it balanced. I want unbalanced, I want to be like everyone else and RP how I want to. That's the only fair way.

A scouting party in the mountains discovered the find of a large deposit of gold, and turned their findings into their commander, and then an investigation was done and the gold was found. All the "poor" peasant workforce was recruited to mine the gold out of the mountain, thousands were involved.

A hole in the rocks was eventually discovered after breaking a thin shale covering, and inside the walls were lined with gold that was dug out over several months using thousands of paid workforce. The reserves of the country were over 100x the amount of gold controlled then the year before (when the RP started).

No balancing, I can RP how I want is the motto?

**Narf** · May 11, 2012, 10:32 AM

Originally Posted by Dance

No, that puts a balance on it. I don't want it balanced. I want unbalanced, I want to be like everyone else and RP how I want to. That's the only fair way.

A scouting party in the mountains discovered the find of a large deposit of gold, and turned their findings into their commander, and then an investigation was done and the gold was found. All the "poor" peasant workforce was recruited to mine the gold out of the mountain, thousands were involved.

A hole in the rocks was eventually discovered after breaking a thin shale covering, and inside the walls were lined with gold that was dug out over several months using thousands of paid workforce. The reserves of the country were over 100x the amount of gold controlled then the year before (when the RP started).

No balancing, I can RP how I want is the motto?

If you are trying to be me you are doing a poor job. Inbalance is not a way to make room for people to make something out of the blue. The unique things for each region would still have to be guided by rules. But they should still be as stated originally to keep the atmosphere around it. What you are saying have nothing to do with Dorne.

As I say Dance. We need rules that makes our RP matter not rules that limit our RP. What you suggest in your post is childish and stupid and have no ground.

**ulti** · May 11, 2012, 10:21 AM

Don't turn this thread into a mockery Dance. This is for serious discussion of the rules, not harassment of those who are bringing up valid points. I'm surprised, seeing as you seem to be an expert on these things, and you keep commanding me to finish them, why you are not labouring over every detail and proving how wrong I supposedly am. You seem to enjoy that sort of stuff.

Now, unless you have something legitimate (ie not complete

) to add to the discussion, stop posting.

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