Pope/Anti-Pope and the Holy Roman Empire

[EmperorJulian]

Good evening, I wanted to bring up some points about the Papacy and the Holy Roman Empire in regards to the upcoming release of M2: Total War.

Firstly, if memory serves there were times in the history of the Papacy that outside meddling in the affairs of Rome would result in the elevation of a Pope, and one or more Anti-Popes all vying for power and legitimacy. From what I've read it would seem Papal Elections will be implimented, which I find a very interesting prospect. However, I wonder if it would be possible to create Popes RIVAL to the one that is officially elected by the college of cardinals. If memory serves Urban II, the great Crusading Pope himself (well prior to Innocent III) gave his famous speech at Claremont, rather than Rome for this very reason.

In regards to the Holy Roman Empire, again if memory serves the Prospective Emperor was elected by Seven chosen Electors from the various Duchies that constituted the HRE as a whole. Once elected this man was NOT Emperor, he would have been called King of the Romans (I believe) and would have had to make a pilgrimage to Rome in order to be crowned by the Pope himself; thus following the Example of Charlemagne in 800 AD. MTW obviously didn't deal with this issue, but I wonder if M2: Total War will. Perhaps it could be a matter of diplomacy and prestige to get the Pope to crown your faction leader as Emperor. Furthermore, I wonder how exactly the Election of the new King of the HRE would be implimented, and if it could be influenced by outside factions.

This is just food for thought but I wonder what the prevailing opinion is regarding antipopes, HRE Elections, and the Crowing Process to become Emperor. Too complex, not interesting enough, or worthwhile? I look forward to your comments.

[Sephynos]

I think the only rival to the Roman Catholic pope is the Orthodox Pope.

[Sétanta]

There isn't such thing as an Orthodox Pope (well the Coptic Church has a 'Pope' but thats not the point).

And I very much doubt that the HRE will have a special process for selecting the faction leader unless all factions have that possibilty.

[Sephynos]

There isn't such thing as an Orthodox Pope (well the Coptic Church has a 'Pope' but thats not the point).

Alright, alright I wanted to say the Pope of the Coptic Orthodox church.

[EmperorJulian]

Well all factions were certainly not elective monarchies, so I doubt we'll see anything like that since it would be excessively unrealistic. The "rival" to the Pope in the ancient world, especially after 1054 AD would have been the Patriarch of Constantinople. That's not really what I was getting at, though I suppose in one sense it is accurate. The Bishop of Rome and the Patriarch never really had a complimentary relationship to begin with. I can see not having a special process as a matter of convienance, though you'd think they could do SOMETHING to not gloss over the special considerations the HRE developed historically.

[Shadow_Imperator]

Avignon Popes anyone?

[IamthePope]

I don't believe there are too many incidents of rival papal claimants. Maybe two or three but not a common occurence worth implementing into gameplay.

[ThiudareiksGunthigg]

I don't believe there are too many incidents of rival papal claimants. Maybe two or three but not a common occurence worth implementing into gameplay.

There were no less than thirty-six Anti-Popes between 500 and 1500 AD. Compare that to the numbers of Popes in the same period and it's pretty clearly a quite regular occurance.

Somehow I doubt CA will work rival claimants to the Papacy into the game though.

[Turnus]

I don't think that CA would put this in the game, but it could work well in a mod focusing on the disputes between the Papacy and the Holy Roman Empire on a map of a smaller area of Europe (you could change two of the religions into Guelf and Ghibelline supporters respectively).

[Shadow_Imperator]

Speaking of, I know the Roman Pope excommunicated Frederick Barbarossa, hence he had his own Anti-Pope elected, classic... Also, maybe they could do something to add the schism, so a Byzantine player could either spead and forge Orthadoxy or heal the wounds with Rome... I dunno, just an idea which popped into my head..

[Dirty Harry]

Speaking of, I know the Roman Pope excommunicated Frederick Barbarossa, hence he had his own Anti-Pope elected, classic... Also, maybe they could do something to add the schism, so a Byzantine player could either spead and forge Orthadoxy or heal the wounds with Rome... I dunno, just an idea which popped into my head..

that is a really cool idea

[Shadow_Imperator]

Orthodox churches to have Patriarchs though...

[John I Tzimisces]

Orthodox churches to have Patriarchs though...

Or Catholicoi.

[EmperorJulian]

Shadow Imperiator does make one interesting point. During the final days of the Byzantine Empire efforts were made (which were extremely unpopular in Constantinople) to reunify both Churches. This was believed by many to be a prerequisite to getting adequate help from Catholic Christendom to fight off the tireless advance of the Ottoman Turks. I don't know if it would be something that COULD be implimented but unification movements were not unheard of say in the 14th and 15th centuries before Constantinople passed into the hands of Mehmed II the Conqueror.

[EmperorJulian]

I agree that CA will likely have no interest in implimenting these historical events/details, but I think they are important none the less. It probably comes down to a matter of complexity and I can only imagine what would be involved in crafting a system of Electors for the HRE that would be both interesting and responsive to outside events. As for the Papal Schisms, perhaps it would be just a matter of causing occasional rebellions in Rome lead by the rival Pope, perhaps again influed by a confluence of events. It may still be far too complex to impliment, but it would be nice none the less.

[Kscott]

First off, I commend you for your topic.

Now,
while this isn't to be implemented by CA, it would certainly be something that mods could consider trying to do. I think it would be worth entertaining the idea in the least.

[Turnus]

Now,
while this isn't to be implemented by CA, it would certainly be something that mods could consider trying to do. I think it would be worth entertaining the idea in the least.

The more I think about it, the better it seems as a mod idea. I'll certainly try and get something going once the game comes out.

[EmperorJulian]

Thanks for the compliment Chormaqan, the idea occured to when I was considering historical features that were omitted from MTW. You're right though mods probably could play around with these ideas and do something with them even if CA chooses not to. I think it would add a great deal of flavor to the Papal/HRE factions making them a bit more unique and interesting than what they already are. I guess we'll just have to wait for the game and see what the modders come up with, I'm eagerly anticipating all that myself.

[Shaggy1973]

Give the HRE the ability to choose the next in line for power, the other monarchy powers should have that ability removed so you have to accept a crappy prince as king. Easy to implement and a bit more depth to the game.

[Hansa]

Very interesting point, I think the HRE was a very special state/empirical formation and these things will probably not be implemented by CA. Indeed the HRE emperor had very varied control over different parts of the empire, and realistically I guess that as emperor of the HRE you shouldn't be able to recruit units from many parts of your empire, not even all the regions you start with, maybe reqest that the noble in Bavaria make feudal sergeants or something, of course these things will be difficult to implement and would also apply to other factions though in a lesser scale.

About papal rivals, I think there is a real possibility of the Chatolic leader in Outremer being a serious rival if the crusader kingdom would have survived for a longer time, this could be interesting to implement, but won't happen. As elites decided religion it could also be implemented that as faction leader you can convert your nation to chatolisism or orthodoxy if you are christian, at least if you are an eastern chatolic faction or an orthodox. this should lead to crusades against you or something if you are a chatolic converting to orthodoxy, and rebellions in both cases. I would love to bring a chatolic faction out of the sranglehold of the pope whithout having to invade the papacy, and risk constant rebellions.