Naval Battles in Fall.

[Evanescent]

So I just finished my first Fall of the Samurai campaign.
The land combats are fine, I suppose, only that they're far, far too easy once you start fielding artillery...

Naval battles, however, seem to be an entirely different story. I just don't understand them.
Why are they there?

I mean, naval battles basically come down to: field ships larger than your enemy's which, of course, have more guns. Win. Next?

I seriously don't understand why there are all those different classes of ships. Gunboats, I found, are next to useless, as they just rout or blow up in the first minute of engagement. Corvettes with fewer guns... are basically slightly larger gunboats which usually blow up in the next minute of engagement. Frigates and ironclads are usually the last ones remaining afloat/in battle, with the latter beating out the former, ALWAYS.

So far, I have not found a use for smaller vessels in naval battles in FotS. I've tried attacking a lone frigate with something in the vincinity of 7 gunboats, and lost; those things seem to have a penchant for blowing up if a shot lands in the water near them, or just routing due to their low morale...


Enough with the ranting. My question: is there a use for smaller vessels in Fall of the Samurai? or is a naval battle even worth it to manually fight? In my short experience, it has always been "sail to the enemy and shoot at them while getting shot at until one side explodes or routs." And there is absolutely zero tactical thinking involved... Perhaps I'm missing something here. I hope.

[CptAustus]

You must be doing naval battles wrong. Most people stack their ships in the flanks, send them to the AI's flanks, its ships will be singled out and when it moves the rest of the fleet, move in the other "wing".

[Slaists]

Against the AI, it's easy to win with smaller ships (when attacking the AI). Park your corvettes in a shooting position (half-moon) outside the AI's range and send front-shooters (that's where gunboats come in handy) towards the AI. Once they're just within range (or close to it), the AI will pursue. Hit "astern" (move backwards while facing the enemy) and the gunboats will retreat towards your main line while shooting at the AI's ship(s). This works like mob 'pulling/kiting' in other games. Once any AI's ship comes into the crossfire by your main line, they're (usually) history after a salvo or two.

Pulling works even better when you have one Kotetsu in your fleet. It's range is 1000, so it can pull from within your main shooting line...

p.s. and the main advantage of corvettes (besides being cheaper and faster to build) is that they are more maneuverable (easier to turn them to face the enemy).

On the campaign map, you can use gunboats as "vision buoys" (thats how I like to think of them). I just place a small number of them here and there at key strategic crossing points to keep an eye on enemy movements to prevent them from sneaking an invasion fleet into the soft underbelly of my mainland.

Gotta be careful about this in peacetime though. Neutral future enemies can bypass your gunboats and declare war AFTER they have sneaked an army close to your underbelly

This holds especially true for MPCs

On the tactical battlefield, gunboats are really only good for hunting down larger ships as they flee, and then boarding them. Then again, gunboats *really* excell at this, so, when I start off, I almost always keep a gunboat with my first two fleets for this purpose.

Another use for gunboats (against the AI) is to stick single units of those in trading and military ports inviting AI fleets to "attack". Once on the battle-map, the AI fleet will be facing your gunboat hiding among coastal batteries. Even if the gunboat goes down in the process, the AI fleet will be severely damaged. Usually, AI ships just explode and sink though.

Make sure to research explosive shot - it's really worth it as a single volley can set fire to a ship and force the enemy crew to abandon ship instantaneously.

Hope that helps.

I'd say, armor piercing is even more important: greater accuracy, greater punch, greater distance...

[VoxDissident]

I'd say, armor piercing is even more important: greater accuracy, greater punch, greater distance...

Agreed. I do think armor piercing is really, really nice, especially for the distance. I try to always get the first two shell techs, with advanced armor piercing being optional depending on how much time I have. However, I can bear to go without armor piercing for longer than I can bear to go without explosive shot, especially once the AI starts fielding copper plated ships with explosive shot.

The first time I ever had a ship with explosive shot unleash one broadside and instantly end the battle, I was pretty impressed - moreso because this is practically a common occurence.

[Ecthelion]

You should try ramming. It works wonders. One hit and the enemy goes down, no matter what.

[VoxDissident]

I seriously don't understand why there are all those different classes of ships. Gunboats, I found, are next to useless, as they just rout or blow up in the first minute of engagement. Corvettes with fewer guns... are basically slightly larger gunboats which usually blow up in the next minute of engagement. Frigates and ironclads are usually the last ones remaining afloat/in battle, with the latter beating out the former, ALWAYS.

So far, I have not found a use for smaller vessels in naval battles in FotS. I've tried attacking a lone frigate with something in the vincinity of 7 gunboats, and lost; those things seem to have a penchant for blowing up if a shot lands in the water near them, or just routing due to their low morale...


Enough with the ranting. My question: is there a use for smaller vessels in Fall of the Samurai? or is a naval battle even worth it to manually fight? In my short experience, it has always been "sail to the enemy and shoot at them while getting shot at until one side explodes or routs." And there is absolutely zero tactical thinking involved... Perhaps I'm missing something here. I hope.

Gunboats have very limited use. There's a reason why they cost ~300 a pop and have incredibly low maintenance.

On the campaign map, you can use gunboats as "vision buoys" (thats how I like to think of them). I just place a small number of them here and there at key strategic crossing points to keep an eye on enemy movements to prevent them from sneaking an invasion fleet into the soft underbelly of my mainland.

On the tactical battlefield, gunboats are really only good for hunting down larger ships as they flee, and then boarding them. Then again, gunboats *really* excell at this, so, when I start off, I almost always keep a gunboat with my first two fleets for this purpose.

To be frank, naval battles *before* the age of steam were largely characterized by "Line of battle" warfare, where you essentially had ships of the line squaring off in a large line and firing at each other. Like you said, "very little tactical thinking", beyond bringing a bigger line of bigger ships with more guns.

When the Age of Steam dawned, you suddenly started seeing ironclads and ramming tactics, which hadn't been seen since before the age of gunpowder (and it was really popular with Triremes during the Greek / Roman days). You also got torpedos and naval mines (which sadly aren't in this game), both of which served to really break up naval formations and force ships to fight what you might character as a "cluster".

For the most part, try to encircle the enemy fleet with a concave, so that you have a wider arc encircling them as they are force to bend outward to fire at you. This way, they are less capable of focusing on one ship at a time on your fleet, while you are more capable of firing and focusing on one ship in the enemy fleet.

Make sure to research explosive shot - it's really worth it as a single volley can set fire to a ship and force the enemy crew to abandon ship instantaneously.

Hope that helps.

[fws2468]

Gunboats have very limited use. There's a reason why they cost ~300 a pop and have incredibly low maintenance.

Yes, but even that limited use is incredibly important. I used them to expose the fow on waterways near the edge of the map to detect invasion fleets that try to sneakily land armies behind my lines. Then I send my main fleet to intercept the enemy navy. It's an absolutely crucial early warning system. Gunboats are also good for distracting enemy fleets that might otherwise be attacking your port or bombarding your army. And if you lose them, they're cheap to replace.

[Alexandru]

Sometimes i find myself using manual aiming(especially when outnumbered/outgunned), i drop anchor just a bit out of enemy's fire range and start shooting.

Even if most projectiles dont get that far to hit home, the ones that do can really punish their hull, take out some cannons and sailor, once even happened that a cannon ball hit water and then punctured the underwater part of the hull, sending them to Davy's locker.

Of course it's a pain and it takes for ever, but you get a routing enemy and absolutelh no losses on your side.

And, yes, go for armour piercing for it's greater range, be aware that explosive shot has an even smaller range than round shot. So manual aiming from a safe distance won't go well with explosive shot.

[Slaists]

Sometimes i find myself using manual aiming(especially when outnumbered/outgunned), i drop anchor just a bit out of enemy's fire range and start shooting.

Even if most projectiles dont get that far to hit home, the ones that do can really punish their hull, take out some cannons and sailor, once even happened that a cannon ball hit water and then punctured the underwater part of the hull, sending them to Davy's locker.

Of course it's a pain and it takes for ever, but you get a routing enemy and absolutelh no losses on your side.

And, yes, go for armour piercing for it's greater range, be aware that explosive shot has an even smaller range than round shot. So manual aiming from a safe distance won't go well with explosive shot.

What i've noticed is that with manual "1st person view" aiming the shots disperse more than with the concentrated broadside (or even auto-fire). So, for that technique of remote firing, it's best to use manual concentrated broadsides (not the manual aiming "1st person view"). Even if the shots hit the water some yards in front of the target, they do continue their trajectory UNDER THE WATER and hit the ship below its water line (just observe the target closely). So, yeah, this way it's possible to have costless victories against the AI [it feels like an exploit though].

Note that as of a patch or two ago, the defensive naval BAI behavior seems to have changed a tad. If, previously, they often just stood in their original formation and allowed the player to pick the AI off ship by ship, then now the FURTHEST AI's ship(s) tend to come to the player once the shooting starts. The original target still wants to stubbornly stay in place for some reason (maybe because of repairs going on).

[Alexandru]

Oooh, yeeaaah.. BROADSIDE!! Haha, i've been totally mesmerized by 1st person mode i forgot about anything else. Thanks for the reminder!

[Evanescent]

Thanks for the advice, all of you who offered a piece. I went and played another campaign, this time with Tosa. I'm starting to think that I don't like Fall as much as I liked S2...

I did see some posts about using the gunboats to pull the ai towards your own line; I've tried it on several occasions, but the ai ships refuse to give chase, even when I go so close that I'm actually within their range. They'd just sit there, usually in a formation like this:

↑←←←→→→↓

the arrows being the direction of the ship's bow. When the fleets are of more or less equal size, it's virtually impossible to flank them since they'll just turn an appropriate number of ships towards my flanking force, and it's just a silly shootout from thereon. Now, as for the enemy fleet bombarding or mounting amphibious assault, I hardly, if ever, care since: the damage they do is minimal; once past the first few years, I have enough fleets so that I can just create a "sea curtain" which the AI is incapable of breaking through.

I'm just finding naval battles exceedingly dull with everything and anything blowing up after exchanging fire for five seconds(okay, that's a bit of a hyperbole...) unless one of the things is an ironclad. Throw in the annoying battlefield announcer, and it's just... blah.

By the way, I have another question... I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong, but I can't board a routing ship like I used to in the vanilla game. Click on the board button, it lights up. Okay, click on the routing ship... and I can't give the command. After trying to board a multitude of ships, I gave up and am resorting to blowing everything out of the water or autoresolving. u_u

[Slaists]

Thanks for the advice, all of you who offered a piece. I went and played another campaign, this time with Tosa. I'm starting to think that I don't like Fall as much as I liked S2...

I did see some posts about using the gunboats to pull the ai towards your own line; I've tried it on several occasions, but the ai ships refuse to give chase, even when I go so close that I'm actually within their range. They'd just sit there, usually in a formation like this:

↑←←←→→→↓

Hmm, that's strange. Whenever the naval AI is on defense, I get a 100% response rate (of them chasing my gunboat) whenever I approach to within the AI's range. I usually approach to within the gunboat's range (which is shorter than the ship range). As soon as I see an AI ship giving chase, I hit 'reverse'.

Is the rest of your fleet arranged in a shooting position not far behind the gunboat? Mine are usually aligned in about 110-115% gun range distance from the AI's ships. Dunno, maybe that helps as an extra 'inducer' for the AI to pursue (towards its doom).

[Alexandru]

By the way, I have another question... I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong, but I can't board a routing ship like I used to in the vanilla game. Click on the board button, it lights up. Okay, click on the routing ship... and I can't give the command. After trying to board a multitude of ships, I gave up and am resorting to blowing everything out of the water or autoresolving. u_u

Maybe you don't havethe right type of ship to board. You'll notice it says 'this type of ship can not be boarded something somethin' message. I guess that's because of difference between hull types.

Another strange thing is some ships cannot board at all, ie the 92crewmen, 6guns corvette. Ok, fewer cannons, i get that. But why does it even have that much men if it cannot board? I'm i just supposec to bring it in firearm range so they can shot at the enemy's hull?(that's what they actually do most).

About the overly catching fire/exploding thing, i use Radious naval mod, it greatly reduces pyromaniac crews(probably the crewmen in vanilla decide to go down with the ship rather than surrender).
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...08#post9353408

[VoxDissident]

yeah. Only certain ship types can perform boarding actions.

Gunboats are exceedingly good for chasing down and boarding fleeing enemy ships.

As for the larger ships, it's kind of finicky. I've seen Kaiten class ships being unable to board other Kaiten class ships. I don't get it.

[Alexandru]

Update on first person mode versus broadside fire:

If you have your ship badly damaged, eg left side has only 1 cannon left, the leftside broadside will, normaly, fire only one projectile.

BUT!! If you go in first person mode you can make use of all the cannons, no matter if they're damaged or not.

Furthermore, you can repair your ship while still being able to fire in first person mode.

[Evanescent]

Weird... my first attempt at boarding was during a lopsided naval engagement in which I had 8 gunboats and the enemy just a lone corvette. I think it was a Kasuga-kyu. The battle itself was pretty unremarkable, with two of my gunboats exploding on the approach with that spectacular full-screen effect(it is a lovely effect, btw), but pounding the corvette into routing rather easily. I chose to continue, and followed down the fleeing enemy, and tried to board. Nothing. I couldn't even click on the ship itself, because it would just turn the cursor into an X mark. So until the enemy ship fled out of the battle zone, my little gunboat was just steaming alongside it, its crew occasionally shooting at the crew...
All the other attempts ended the same. I couldn't board the enemy ship because the game wouldn't let me give the command. Perhaps it's those paddlewheels on the side that doesn't allow boarding attempts... hmmm.

[CTD_or_Bust]

Gun boats are the only boats I've ever managed to board a routing ship with. All the other ships just seem to go round in round in circles once they hook on.

-lol didn't read-
Evanescent dude use boarding after the ship is already routing. Don't send a swarm of gunboats at a ship to get it to rout that's just silly. Use a standard corvette or whatnot THEN send a gunboat or two to board.

[Evanescent]

Evanescent dude use boarding after the ship is already routing. Don't send a swarm of gunboats at a ship to get it to rout that's just silly. Use a standard corvette or whatnot THEN send a gunboat or two to board.

The gunboats blew up on the approach to engage in a firefight--I wasn't going to board a larger ship without breaking the morale of its crew first, yes.

But the thing is that I couldn't board the ship as it was routing. No hooks were thrown. As I mentioned, I couldn't even give the command to board the ship because the cursor would just turn into a forbidding X.


Anyway, I think I'm done with Fall after just two campaigns. While all the fireworks are nice, the campaign overall is far too uninteresting for me, and the naval battles... well, I actually prefer the cardboard ships of the sengoku jidai. They're actually kind of fun to play around with... they don't blow up in the first five seconds of battle, compared with the hyperexplosive steamers of boshin war...

[W4lt3r]

Anyone tried to use a navy specced general?
Ie with Alacrity and Precision at least..

Hmh.. I wonder why there's only like 3-4 abilities in the skill tree in total that affect naval units only.
Would be nice to get a new skill tree that would focus on naval units only.

[CTD_or_Bust]

I'd prefer more talents that affect both naval and land. It seems diminutive to have to spec a general for a certain role when you can never go back and change it later. I'm insinuating less talents=better. If I wanted to play WoW I'd play WoW. If I wanted to play BW I'd play BW. I want to play Total War, not T RPG W or whatnot.