New Economy Thread

[The Stig]

Because I don't want to search the OOC thread for it...

New thingy (income for 91 BCE not affected):

Game Schedule

Election Schedule

Term 11: 5/8 - 5/17
Payday: May 14th

Term 12: 5/18 - 5/27
Payday: May 24th

Term 13: 5/28 - 6/6
Payday: June 3rd

Farm Harvest
*collect income from farms only, harvests also occur every payday, so count your farm harvest in with income on payday as well as Harvest times*

5/10
5/15
5/20
5/25
5/30
6/4
6/9

[Magicman2051]

I'm going to use this thread to lay out a series of changes regarding the economy and legions, with broader implications.

Legionary Maintenance/Replenishment - Both are going to be effectively abolished, the former is going to be housed under a new single payment from the treasury titled "Legionary Salary". Replenishment will be handled by a new, economy based statistic.

Capacity - The current name for that new statistic, "Yield" would work also. Capacity is effectively the total production yield, in traded goods, that a regions generates each turn.

Each region will have a Capacity based on that regions development and a random roll modifier associated with it, so there is some variance but it is unlikely to be much. In order to raise or maintain a Legion you need to use Capacity (I'll find a new name for it). Capacity will also directly impact the amount of tax a region produces, so if you use it all to replenish troops you won't get much tax.

A certain amount of Capacity is kept year by year as Net Capacity, which is controlled by the Senate, and the amount of Capacity which is kept this way can be increased by infrastructure investment etc. This can be used by the Senate to raise Legions, maintain existing Legions or they can sell it on the Market.

A player can, through the development of farms etc. generate a small amount of Capacity each turn, which they can then either sell to the Senate/other players or keep themselves. A player can also buy Capacity off of the Senate, as an investment or to raise a Legion.

How much Capacity is worth could change from turn to turn, depending on whether or not a war is being fought, if it was a good farm year etc.

How will this be applied? I'll adjust the system to account for current legionary numbers, there will be some changes to how much Denari each person has/how much you earn but this change is a ways off.

[Rhapture]

This sounds like a completely bad idea.
Also it sounds way too much like how GSTK works.

But we are not playing in Europe during the middle ages. We are playing during the Roman republic. If you want to redo some some of the game rules,(and yes how the legions are paid and replenished needs tweaking) you should it at least try to do it historically. Otherwise just wait til the game restarts, not in the middle. (and do we really need/ want another 50+ rolls per year for a mod to do? and then somehow let the senate know exactly how much we can recruit? )

Firstly Roman armies were originally only those wealthy enough to afford armor and weapons. Eventually this was not sustainable and the State paid for weapons and armor and trained the legions. Even then you still had to be a Roman Citizen. Finally Marius made it so the Italian allies could join the legions, because he needed more men to fight the German tribes. Once this happened, during republican times there were always enough men. The problem revolved around how to pay them all. It was not so bad if they soldiered for a year, yet once the legions became full time jobs, the troops were not going to a home to gather their crops and needed pay to overcome this deficiency. So Marius started handing out land from newly conquered people or using the public lands to pay the legions he recruited. The longer they served the more they were owed.

Tying recruitment to our personal farms (besides how much a senator earns from those farms) makes little sense. First, because slaves are working our farms, not citizens or allies, so recruiting a legion does not affect output of our farms. Second because food from farms in Italy has little affect to how an army is fed. Yes the commander would start by purchasing grain - from the state most likely - but food for one legion is not very much if Rome holds what over 200,000+ at this point ?
Third - typing senatorial recruitment (manpower - not financial) to some province in Numidia - when no legionary would come from there also makes no sense.
If you want some maximum number of legions or manpower - then tie it to roman citizens / allied citizen status. As of now , that should mostly be Italy to the alps, Sicily. Otherwise Rome would need to pass laws granting that status to other people. The amount of legions we have now is probably over that amount. Troops from any other province that does not have that status would be auxiliary and be in their native formations - (phalanx, light spearmen, etc)



Therefore if you want to make it so it is difficult and expensive to have standing legions (especially for individual senators) then the pay of the legions should increase the longer they are in service - and the commander of the legion should have to pass a law designating where these legions would get land after they retire. If this can't be done - then the pay for that legion should go up (also the loyalty/ or morale would be affected). I would also say original recruitment cost either stay the same or go down.

Pay should also go up if there is no war - no land or spoils to take- There were not really standing legions until Caesar - sure there were some - but not the 30 or so we have now.

As for replenishment - I do not recall Rome sending out legionaries to fill the ranks - They would recruit a new legion - the legions who lost men in combat would be combined - the men from the newest legion being used to fill the more veteran legions.
If not all legions can be filled, then you either had one under manned legions , or a couple over strength legions.

So to recap my ideas -

Recruitment costs (same price or go down, especially if legions can be recalled, (15,000 denarii)
- it is recommended that the commander of the army get a law passed giving land to his new legions when they retire/ stop being used.
-a legion may be retired to a province where they are given land and may be recalled by the original commander at 1/4 cost - but twice the pay
-if a legion is disbanded/retired without a land retirement law, they would form a new legion if re-recruited
Pay ( I would say 5000 base per legion and you only pay if you personally recruited the legion)
- pay goes up the longer the legion is used (10% a year)
- pay goes up if the legion does not get land when they retire (1.5 * base pay) , and -1 loyalty penalty
- pay goes up if the legion is not actively participating in a war (proconsular legions excluded - defense/military need in outer provinces) (base pay * 1.1)
Manpower Limits (not necessary but might it more historical)
-based on Roman citizens / allied citizen status
-only a law may grant citizen status to people in the provinces
-any troops levied in provinces will be auxiliary and a native type to that province
Replenishment
- only whole legions can be recruited
- under manned legions can either be used to fill up other legions(max 6600 men to a overstrength legion), kept under manned (min 3000 men) or disbanded


of course the actual numbers are just my thoughts - those and my whole argument is open to any discussion - but I would say it is a much better historical representation of what we are trying to RP

[General Brewster]

I'm going to use this thread to lay out a series of changes regarding the economy and legions, with broader implications.

Legionary Maintenance/Replenishment - Both are going to be effectively abolished, the former is going to be housed under a new single payment from the treasury titled "Legionary Salary". Replenishment will be handled by a new, economy based statistic.

Capacity - The current name for that new statistic, "Yield" would work also. Capacity is effectively the total production yield, in traded goods, that a regions generates each turn.

Each region will have a Capacity based on that regions development and a random roll modifier associated with it, so there is some variance but it is unlikely to be much. In order to raise or maintain a Legion you need to use Capacity (I'll find a new name for it). Capacity will also directly impact the amount of tax a region produces, so if you use it all to replenish troops you won't get much tax.

A certain amount of Capacity is kept year by year as Net Capacity, which is controlled by the Senate, and the amount of Capacity which is kept this way can be increased by infrastructure investment etc. This can be used by the Senate to raise Legions, maintain existing Legions or they can sell it on the Market.

A player can, through the development of farms etc. generate a small amount of Capacity each turn, which they can then either sell to the Senate/other players or keep themselves. A player can also buy Capacity off of the Senate, as an investment or to raise a Legion.

How much Capacity is worth could change from turn to turn, depending on whether or not a war is being fought, if it was a good farm year etc.

How will this be applied? I'll adjust the system to account for current legionary numbers, there will be some changes to how much Denari each person has/how much you earn but this change is a ways off.

Sorry but this really goes out of touch.. the capacity can be worked out into something awesome though.

This sounds like a completely bad idea.
Also it sounds way too much like how GSTK works.

But we are not playing in Europe during the middle ages. We are playing during the Roman republic. If you want to redo some some of the game rules,(and yes how the legions are paid and replenished needs tweaking) you should it at least try to do it historically. Otherwise just wait til the game restarts, not in the middle. (and do we really need/ want another 50+ rolls per year for a mod to do? and then somehow let the senate know exactly how much we can recruit? )

Firstly Roman armies were originally only those wealthy enough to afford armor and weapons. Eventually this was not sustainable and the State paid for weapons and armor and trained the legions. Even then you still had to be a Roman Citizen. Finally Marius made it so the Italian allies could join the legions, because he needed more men to fight the German tribes. Once this happened, during republican times there were always enough men. The problem revolved around how to pay them all. It was not so bad if they soldiered for a year, yet once the legions became full time jobs, the troops were not going to a home to gather their crops and needed pay to overcome this deficiency. So Marius started handing out land from newly conquered people or using the public lands to pay the legions he recruited. The longer they served the more they were owed.

Tying recruitment to our personal farms (besides how much a senator earns from those farms) makes little sense. First, because slaves are working our farms, not citizens or allies, so recruiting a legion does not affect output of our farms. Second because food from farms in Italy has little affect to how an army is fed. Yes the commander would start by purchasing grain - from the state most likely - but food for one legion is not very much if Rome holds what over 200,000+ at this point ?
Third - typing senatorial recruitment (manpower - not financial) to some province in Numidia - when no legionary would come from there also makes no sense.
If you want some maximum number of legions or manpower - then tie it to roman citizens / allied citizen status. As of now , that should mostly be Italy to the alps, Sicily. Otherwise Rome would need to pass laws granting that status to other people. The amount of legions we have now is probably over that amount. Troops from any other province that does not have that status would be auxiliary and be in their native formations - (phalanx, light spearmen, etc)



Therefore if you want to make it so it is difficult and expensive to have standing legions (especially for individual senators) then the pay of the legions should increase the longer they are in service - and the commander of the legion should have to pass a law designating where these legions would get land after they retire. If this can't be done - then the pay for that legion should go up (also the loyalty/ or morale would be affected). I would also say original recruitment cost either stay the same or go down.

Pay should also go up if there is no war - no land or spoils to take- There were not really standing legions until Caesar - sure there were some - but not the 30 or so we have now.

As for replenishment - I do not recall Rome sending out legionaries to fill the ranks - They would recruit a new legion - the legions who lost men in combat would be combined - the men from the newest legion being used to fill the more veteran legions.
If not all legions can be filled, then you either had one under manned legions , or a couple over strength legions.

So to recap my ideas -

Recruitment costs (same price or go down, especially if legions can be recalled, (15,000 denarii)
- it is recommended that the commander of the army get a law passed giving land to his new legions when they retire/ stop being used.
-a legion may be retired to a province where they are given land and may be recalled by the original commander at 1/4 cost - but twice the pay
-if a legion is disbanded/retired without a land retirement law, they would form a new legion if re-recruited
Pay ( I would say 5000 base per legion and you only pay if you personally recruited the legion)
- pay goes up the longer the legion is used (10% a year)
- pay goes up if the legion does not get land when they retire (1.5 * base pay) , and -1 loyalty penalty
- pay goes up if the legion is not actively participating in a war (proconsular legions excluded - defense/military need in outer provinces) (base pay * 1.1)
Manpower Limits (not necessary but might it more historical)
-based on Roman citizens / allied citizen status
-only a law may grant citizen status to people in the provinces
-any troops levied in provinces will be auxiliary and a native type to that province
Replenishment
- only whole legions can be recruited
- under manned legions can either be used to fill up other legions(max 6600 men to a overstrength legion), kept under manned (min 3000 men) or disbanded


of course the actual numbers are just my thoughts - those and my whole argument is open to any discussion - but I would say it is a much better historical representation of what we are trying to RP

I like this more.. especially the lower costs for legions.

[Okmin]

Updated the Town Crier.