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  1. #1
    Gaius Drakan's Avatar Biarchus
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    Default If you can read this sentence, I can prove to you that God exists

    "If you can read this sentence, I can prove to you that God exists"

    The above is the title of an e-mail that I recieved 10 minutes ago, and after reading it, I thought that it may actually be an interesting thing to discuss on TWC.

    Here it is:-
    Quote Originally Posted by Perry Marshall
    "If you can read this sentence, I can prove to you that God exists"

    Chris,

    See this email I just sent you, that you're reading
    right now? This email is proof of the existence of God.

    Yeah, I know, that sounds crazy. But I'm not asking you
    to believe anything just yet, until you see the evidence for
    yourself. All I ask is that you refrain from disbelieving
    while I show you my proof. It only takes a minute to convey,
    but it speaks to one of the most important questions of all
    time.

    So how is this email proof of the existence of God?:

    This email you're reading contains letters, words and
    sentences. It contains a message that means something.
    As long as you can read English, you can understand what
    I'm saying.

    You can do all kinds of things with this email. You
    can read it on your computer screen. You can print it out on
    your printer. You can read it out loud to a friend who's in
    the same room as you are. You can call your friend and read it
    to her over the telephone. You can save it as a Microsoft
    WORD document. You can forward it to someone via email, or you
    can post it on a website.

    Regardless of how you copy it or where you send it,
    the information remains the same. My email contains a message.
    It contains information in the form of language. The message
    is independent of the medium it is sent in.

    Messages are not matter, even though they can be carried
    by matter (like printing this email on a piece of paper).

    Messages are not energy even though they can be carried
    by energy (like the sound of my voice.)

    Messages are immaterial. Information is itself a very
    unique kind of entity. It can be stored and transmitted and
    copied in many forms, but the meaning still stays the same.

    Messages can be in English, French or Chinese.
    Or Morse Code. Or mating calls of birds. Or the Internet.
    Or radio or television. Or computer programs or architect
    blueprints or stone carvings. Every cell in your body
    contains a message encoded in DNA, representing a complete
    plan for you.

    OK, so what does this have to do with God?

    It's very simple. Messages, languages, and coded
    information ONLY come from a mind. A mind that
    agrees on an alphabet and a meaning of words and
    sentences. A mind that expresses both desire and
    intent.

    Whether I use the simplest possible explanation,
    such as the one I'm giving you here, or if we analyze
    language with advanced mathematics and engineering
    communication theory, I can say this with total
    confidence:

    "Messages, languages and coded information never,
    ever come from anything else besides a mind.
    No one has ever produced a single example of a message
    that did not come from a mind."

    Nature can create fascinating patterns - snowflakes,
    sand dunes, crystals, stalagmites and stalagtites. Tornados
    and turbulence and cloud formations.

    But non-living things cannot create language. They
    *cannot* create codes. Rocks cannot think and they
    cannot talk. And they cannot create information.

    It is believed by some that life on planet earth arose
    naturally from the "primordial soup," the early ocean which
    produced enzymes and eventually RNA, DNA, and primitive cells.

    But there is still a problem with this theory: It fails to
    answer the question, 'Where did the information come from?'

    DNA is not merely a molecule. Nor is it simply a "pattern."
    Yes, it contains chemicals and proteins, but those chemicals
    are arranged to form an intricate language, in the exact same way
    that English and Chinese and HTML are languages.

    DNA has a four-letter alphabet, and structures very similar
    to words, sentences and paragraphs. With very precise
    instructions.

    To the person who says that life arose naturally,
    you need only ask: "Where did the information come from?
    Show me just ONE example of a language that didn't come
    from a mind."

    As simple as this question is, I've personally presented it
    to many hundreds of people who say that life arose without the
    assistance of God. But to a person, none of them have ever been
    able to explain where the information came from. This riddle is
    "So simple any child can understand, yet so complex,
    no atheist can solve."

    You can hear or read my full presentation on this topic at
    http://www.cosmicfingerprints.com/ifyoucanreadthis.htm

    For a high-school level, layman's version, go here:
    http://www.cosmicfingerprints.com/information.htm

    Matter and energy have to come from somewhere. Everyone
    can agree on that. But information has to come from somewhere,
    too! Information is separate entity, fully on par with matter and
    energy. And information can only come from a mind. If books
    and poems and TV shows come from human intelligence, then all
    living things inevitably came from a superintelligence.

    Every word you hear, every sentence you speak, every
    dog that barks, every song you sing, every email you read,
    every packet of information that zings across the Internet,
    is proof of the existence of God. Because information
    and language always originate in a mind.

    In the beginning were words and language.

    In the Beginning was Information.

    When we consider the mystery of life - where it came
    from and how it was possible - do we not at the same time
    ask the question where it is going, and what its purpose is?

    Respectfully Submitted,

    Perry Marshall
    Any thoughts on this?

  2. #2
    Civitate
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    Default Re: If you can read this sentence, I can prove to you that God exists

    Bah, it proves nothing, and argues not for god but for complex philosophical theories.
    Under the patronage of Rhah and brother of eventhorizen.

  3. #3
    Indefinitely Banned
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    Default Re: If you can read this sentence, I can prove to you that God exists

    It's too bad Darth Wong isn't around, as he'd have a great time replying to this, I'm sure.

    I think Perry Marshal is a moron. Though not exactly, what he's essentially following along with is the idea that the most naive of the naive subscribe to. "Oh wow! Look how amazing everything is, there must be a god!"

    Which god was he trying to prove the existence of, anyway? I couldn't tell if he was arguing for the Christian god, the Flying Spaghetti Monster or for Zeus.

  4. #4
    IamthePope's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: If you can read this sentence, I can prove to you that God exists

    Quote Originally Posted by Atheist Peace
    what he's essentially following along with is the idea that the most naive of the naive subscribe to. "Oh wow! Look how amazing everything is, there must be a god!"
    Einstein shared a similar opinion. Physics to him was proof a cosmic creator. What a dummy .

    "Not to know what happened before you were born is to be a child forever. For what is the time of a man, except that it should be interwoven with that memory of ancient things of a superior age?" -Marcus Tullius Cicero

  5. #5

    Default Re: If you can read this sentence, I can prove to you that God exists

    Lol, you get odd e-mails.

    Well, I think this man needs to accept some physics axiomas.

    It's also quite a broad approach to the concept of "God".

    Why bundle everything unexplainable to one diety, let alone worship it?
    "Tempus edax rerum." Ovid, Metamorphoses
    Under the patronage of Virgil.

  6. #6
    Tostig's Avatar -
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    Default Re: If you can read this sentence, I can prove to you that God exists

    No, the message is analytically deduced from the sense data, value is given to it based on our experiences and we react to it according to our memories of our experiences.

    Hume. I would elaborate but Rationalism got it's arse kicked by Empiricism hundreds of years ago. And go read some Dawkins if you don't yet understand DNA.
    Garbarsardar has been a dapper chap.

  7. #7

    Default Re: If you can read this sentence, I can prove to you that God exists

    Quote Originally Posted by The White Knight
    Lol, you get odd e-mails.

    Well, I think this man needs to accept some physics axiomas.

    It's also quite a broad approach to the concept of "God".

    Why bundle everything unexplainable to one diety, let alone worship it?
    I get crazier emails, trust me.
    Swear filters are for sites run by immature children.

  8. #8
    Siblesz's Avatar I say it's coming......
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    Default Re: If you can read this sentence, I can prove to you that God exists

    Quote Originally Posted by Kanaric
    I get crazier emails, trust me.
    Penis enlargent pills? Mustaffa Komumba from Nigeria? Pyotor Ramonavich from the billionaire Russian pipeline company? Name any.

    Yes, this is a load of crap. It all boils down to sensory information, and sensory information is in no way correlated with the existence of a superior being. It's evolution.
    Last edited by Siblesz; June 21, 2006 at 02:47 AM.
    Hypocrisy is the foundation of sin.

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  9. #9

    Default Re: If you can read this sentence, I can prove to you that God exists

    It's incorrect. Several assumptions are made to discard the theory of evolution. Life is just a coincidance. When life, not humans but very simple bacteria or somthing like that, is accidently created it automaticly evolves. Because only specimen that survive can reproduce, only the good ones stay alive. And so it goes on. The good ones who survive reproduce, the bad ones die. Wait a very long time and you have a human. No "information" required.

  10. #10
    greek302's Avatar Centenarius
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    Default Re: If you can read this sentence, I can prove to you that God exists

    Its called evolution, get used to it, Its proven.
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  11. #11
    Civitate
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    Default Re: If you can read this sentence, I can prove to you that God exists

    Quote Originally Posted by greek302
    Its called evolution, get used to it, Its proven.
    No, it is not proven, thats why its called the Theory of evolution, but i agree, its definetly by far the most realistic sounding theory.
    Under the patronage of Rhah and brother of eventhorizen.

  12. #12
    Tostig's Avatar -
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    Default Re: If you can read this sentence, I can prove to you that God exists

    Yes, it is a theory, much like the theory I have that you people actually exist, or my theory that one thing causes another. Neither of those are proven, but I am quite happy to assume they are true. For instance:

    1. Brick hits window a thousand times.
    2. Window breaks a thousand times.

    Now, because correlation does not equal causation I have no reason to claim that I have proven that bricks hitting a window causes it to break, however this data does support a theory saying that.
    Garbarsardar has been a dapper chap.

  13. #13
    Tom Paine's Avatar Mr Common Sense
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    Default Re: If you can read this sentence, I can prove to you that God exists

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaun
    No, it is not proven, thats why its called the Theory of evolution, but i agree, its definetly by far the most realistic sounding theory.
    No, its called the Theory of Evolution like the Theory of Relativity. Theory is as close as science gets to an absolute.
    Quote Originally Posted by The E-Mail
    But non-living things cannot create language. They
    *cannot* create codes. Rocks cannot think and they
    cannot talk. And they cannot create information.
    This is the crux. However the matter of language is obviously irrelevant; not all living things have language. The matter of creation of codes is irrelevant; randomised chemical reactions, that is, the creation of life, can perfectly well produce codes such as DNA. And rocks have no brain; we do; and it works based on chemical processes, purely energy conversions.

  14. #14

    Default Re: If you can read this sentence, I can prove to you that God exists

    Quote Originally Posted by the Grim Squeaker
    No, its called the Theory of Evolution like the Theory of Relativity. Theory is as close as science gets to an absolute.
    No, a theory stops being a theory when there's a sufficient amount of data to make it a fact and absolute. Theories can be proven false, inaccurate, or true. A theory is just that...a theory. It is open to more investigation and analysis.

    The theory of Evolution is one of those theories that is more theoretical than others.

  15. #15
    vegetarian's Avatar Libertus
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    Default Re: If you can read this sentence, I can prove to you that God exists

    I read for a minute and stopped, at that point there was a reference to microsoft, are you saying that bill gates is god?

  16. #16

    Default Re: If you can read this sentence, I can prove to you that God exists

    Where does information come from? Nowhere. It does not exist at the point in time he speaks about when he claims to challenge the atheists.

    Informaiton, as he said (and I agree) is a construct of the mind. So his question begs his own premise. It's like asking where do the cars come from? Well, until someone makes them, they do not exist. Information does not exist prior to someone abstracting it.

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  17. #17

    Default Re: If you can read this sentence, I can prove to you that God exists

    Quote Originally Posted by dearmad
    Where does information come from? Nowhere. It does not exist at the point in time he speaks about when he claims to challenge the atheists.

    Informaiton, as he said (and I agree) is a construct of the mind. So his question begs his own premise. It's like asking where do the cars come from? Well, until someone makes them, they do not exist. Information does not exist prior to someone abstracting it.
    Hehe, just as his theory concerning god is information constructed by his mind.
    "Tempus edax rerum." Ovid, Metamorphoses
    Under the patronage of Virgil.

  18. #18

    Default Re: If you can read this sentence, I can prove to you that God exists

    In my opinion it's a childish attempt to convert people. Just make some false assumptions and a nice story and BOOM: god. Even if it is true, it could be any god.

  19. #19

    Default Re: If you can read this sentence, I can prove to you that God exists

    Messages are not energy even though they can be carried
    by energy (like the sound of my voice.)
    I'll give him the benefit of the doubt that he is refering to the kinetic energy of the particles in the medium instead of the sound itself. Because sound is not energy but material. It is a series longitudinal waves using particles as a medium.

    Regardless of how you copy it or where you send it,
    the information remains the same. My email contains a message.
    It contains information in the form of language. The message
    is independent of the medium it is sent in.
    Not really. If I write down a word, in one language it might mean one thing but it might mean something completely different in another. Like he said, messages are decoded by the mind. It depends on the mind which does the decoding that determines what the message reads. Therefore the messages might not remain the same when dealing with multiple observers.

    Messages, languages and coded information never,
    ever come from anything else besides a mind.
    No one has ever produced a single example of a message
    that did not come from a mind."

    Nature can create fascinating patterns - snowflakes,
    sand dunes, crystals, stalagmites and stalagtites. Tornados
    and turbulence and cloud formations.

    But non-living things cannot create language. They
    *cannot* create codes. Rocks cannot think and they
    cannot talk. And they cannot create information.
    What does he think geology is? You analyze the "messages" created by nature. Non-living things cannot interprete the message but they can in fact create the messages.

  20. #20

    Default Re: If you can read this sentence, I can prove to you that God exists

    A theory is a theory. It can be proven false or true. The only difference is that a theory is a huge step ahead of a hypothesis,

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