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Thread: More benefits for Orthodox Christianity?

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  1. #1

    Default More benefits for Orthodox Christianity?

    Catholicism has a lot of pros and cons: on the pro side, you get crusades (with very powerful crusader mercenaries) and knightly orders (Hospitallers, Santiago, Templars, Teutonics). Also, Catholic cathedrals are slightly superior to Orthodox cathedrals and Jamas, since they provide a public health bonus.

    On the con side, the Pope holds the threat of excommunication over your head.

    Islam has somewhat weaker pros and cons than Catholicism, but seems balanced overall. On the pro side, you get jihads (with useful mercenaries, but much less powerful than crusaders) and hashashim. All Muslim factions also get racetracks. Bimaristans really only expensively make up for the fact that Jamas don't give the public health bonuses of Catholic Cathedrals, though.

    The only con I can think of for Islam is that they don't get mobile princesses. Princesses aren't a great advantage, so no big deal.

    Orthodoxy gets... what? It doesn't seem to have any pros or cons. Orthodox factions can build Ikoner's Studios, but, like Muslim bimaristans, it really only makes up for the lack of Orthodox Cathedral public health bonuses. There's also an Amplify Religion effect, but I'm not sure what that's worth.

    It seems like Orthodoxy is pretty much weaker than Islam, unless you have really great Orthodox princesses.

    I'd just like to see it boosted a little. I'm wondering what ideas you have.

    I'd prefer not to have them get something like an "Orthodox crusade," or the like. I don't really want to see Orthodoxy made more like Catholicism or Islam. Rather, I'd like to see something that makes them as powerful as the other religions, but in its own unique way.

    Any ideas? Hieromonk ancillaries from Orthodox abbeys and cathedrals that boost local generals' piety and chivalry or dread? I just wish I had better ideas for how they could be improved.

  2. #2
    SonofaBooyah's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: More benefits for Orthodox Christianity?

    I suppose the fact you can't have crusades called against you is quite a big pro? And Jihad's aren't as bad as the Crusades cause there's less Islamic factions, and weaker Jihad units. Also, there's no issue with the Pope constantly excommunicating you.
    But I do agree that the Orthodox factions don't really have any specialities. To be expected though, the game is mainly focused on the struggle between Christianity and Islam (and fighting themselves), Orthodox Christianity definetely seems to be of less importance.

  3. #3

    Default Re: More benefits for Orthodox Christianity?

    Quote Originally Posted by bradavies View Post
    I suppose the fact you can't have crusades called against you is quite a big pro?
    Constantinople and Vilnius are quite popular crusade targets. Both in-game and in real life.

  4. #4
    SonofaBooyah's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: More benefits for Orthodox Christianity?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sursion View Post
    Constantinople and Vilnius are quite popular crusade targets. Both in-game and in real life.
    Never had a crusade against Constantinople before, only Jihads.

  5. #5

    Default Re: More benefits for Orthodox Christianity?

    Quote Originally Posted by bradavies View Post
    Never had a crusade against Constantinople before, only Jihads.
    If you play the Crusades campaign of Kingdoms, a crusade will be forced upon you (crazy rogue Venetians).

    In vanilla however, it's much rarer. Not to say it doesn't happen. I've had a crusade called on me after I managed to anger the Papal States (pretty sure the Hungarians called it).

  6. #6
    SonofaBooyah's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: More benefits for Orthodox Christianity?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sursion View Post
    If you play the Crusades campaign of Kingdoms, a crusade will be forced upon you (crazy rogue Venetians).

    In vanilla however, it's much rarer. Not to say it doesn't happen. I've had a crusade called on me after I managed to anger the Papal States (pretty sure the Hungarians called it).
    Oh right, didn't think you meant kingdoms. If you go to war with Papacy then maybe you would get some crusades I suppose.

  7. #7
    Teutonic Warlord's Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: More benefits for Orthodox Christianity?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sursion View Post
    Constantinople and Vilnius are quite popular crusade targets. Both in-game and in real life.
    Because Vilnius is pagan...
    Quote Originally Posted by Sursion View Post
    If you play the Crusades campaign of Kingdoms, a crusade will be forced upon you (crazy rogue Venetians).

    In vanilla however, it's much rarer. Not to say it doesn't happen. I've had a crusade called on me after I managed to anger the Papal States (pretty sure the Hungarians called it).
    That was the Fourth Crusade, a real event. Instead of heading towards Egypt, they went after Constantinople and sacked it. They were excommunicated once they were taken off track by the Venetians (before the sacking of Constantinople). So, it shouldn't ordinarily be a crusade target, since the Venetians+excommunicated crusaders sacked it in real life.

    Also, if an Orthodox faction allies with the Pope, any Catholics who attack you risk excommunication. It is a good way to abuse the system if you are willing to play nice with the Pope. Personally, I usually stay neutral.
    Insert something witty or possibly out of context here.

  8. #8

    Default Re: More benefits for Orthodox Christianity?

    I like Orthodox factions. Like Catholic's except no annoying Pope, I can actually fight a war without getting excommunicated, and every catholic faction attacking me.

  9. #9
    CELTICEMPIRE's Avatar Libertus
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    Default Re: More benefits for Orthodox Christianity?

    I have captured and sacked Rome as the Byzantines, but have still not had a crusade called against me.

  10. #10
    DividingSolid's Avatar Tiro
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    Default Re: More benefits for Orthodox Christianity?

    I think the reason why a Crusade can't be called on Orthodox factions is that more prone to Jihads and that itself is bad enough.

  11. #11
    SonofaBooyah's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: More benefits for Orthodox Christianity?

    No, Orthodox factions don't have crusades against them because they're part chritistian, hence the name 'Orthodox Christians'. I think the orthodox part is because they openely accept other religions and ideas more readily than other christians. I'm not sure about that though, I don't really know the ins and outs of the religions.
    Either way, I've never seen Orthodox cities become crusade targets, so I'm assuming they can't be.

  12. #12
    Teutonic Warlord's Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: More benefits for Orthodox Christianity?

    Quote Originally Posted by bradavies View Post
    I think the orthodox part is because they openely accept other religions and ideas more readily than other christians. I'm not sure about that though, I don't really know the ins and outs of the religions.
    No, orthodox comes from the Greek word orthos meaning right, true, correct, etc. In English, we associate the word with sticking with certain conventions. Its original meaning/sense, however, (especially when referring to the Orthodox church) refers to those who kept faith in the original church, the Orthodox church. If you recall, the Great Schism divided Catholicism and Orthodoxy in 1054 with the Western and Eastern churches, respectively. Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orthodoxy
    Insert something witty or possibly out of context here.

  13. #13

    Default Re: More benefits for Orthodox Christianity?

    Maybe an Iconoclast/Iconophile line of traits? I don't think this is enough, but I'm just tossing out ideas.

    Iconoclast (+piety, +dread, -construction costs) (Wary of Icons, Suspects Iconolatry, Iconoclast)

    This man has embraced an uncompromisingly ascetic view of religious devotion -- tossing aside the elaborate paraphernalia of worship in favor of a purer veneration of the divine.

    (Triggers: demolishing churches, spending time near imams?)

    Iconophile (+piety, +chivalry, -squalor) (Enjoys Icons, Venerates Icons, Iconophile)

    This man regards the imagery of saints and the divine as an essential part worship, and is a patron of many beautiful icons.

    (Triggers: building churches and ikoner's studios?)

    I don't know.

  14. #14

    Default Re: More benefits for Orthodox Christianity?

    Playing as the Novgorodians. The Papal States and my relations with them would actually lower significantly throughout the campaign. (Stainless Steel 6.4)

  15. #15
    Old Geezer's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: More benefits for Orthodox Christianity?

    I am presently playing KGCM as Byzantium and find that they are super easy to expand east and west simultaneously from the start. By spamming cavalry the Hungarians are severely reduced and Bran is taken and Belgrade is under siege; the Turks have maybe Mosul and Babylon left at most. I just got attacked by the Mongols but they have apparently wandered off to fight the Turks or gone home. The central position and being able to attack whomever you want is a big advantage. It is a lot harder to get promotions though because there is no crusading or jihad. You have access before turn 20 to Greek Fire Mercs and Alan cavalry. The fireships are very powerful. The pope seems to get unhappy when I capture and exterminate or sack an Hungarian settlement. I have not yet had any trouble with getting disloyal generals which I thought might have been programmed into the game. Biggest problem is reinforcing the gains from the blitz as it spreads both directions. Biggest drawback is not having really good spear units. I am planning to recruit mecs in the west to help.

  16. #16

    Default Re: More benefits for Orthodox Christianity?

    Quote Originally Posted by Old Geezer View Post
    I am presently playing KGCM as Byzantium and find that they are super easy to expand east and west simultaneously from the start. By spamming cavalry the Hungarians are severely reduced and Bran is taken and Belgrade is under siege; the Turks have maybe Mosul and Babylon left at most. I just got attacked by the Mongols but they have apparently wandered off to fight the Turks or gone home. The central position and being able to attack whomever you want is a big advantage. It is a lot harder to get promotions though because there is no crusading or jihad. You have access before turn 20 to Greek Fire Mercs and Alan cavalry. The fireships are very powerful. The pope seems to get unhappy when I capture and exterminate or sack an Hungarian settlement. I have not yet had any trouble with getting disloyal generals which I thought might have been programmed into the game. Biggest problem is reinforcing the gains from the blitz as it spreads both directions. Biggest drawback is not having really good spear units. I am planning to recruit mecs in the west to help.
    I love Byzantium though I do think they are missing some in their roster. I have looked at some mods that completely overhaul the Byzantine roster.

    Like I have said before the glory of being an Orthodox faction is being able to attack Catholics and continue a war without getting exterminated and having a crusade or every catholic faction declaring war on you.

  17. #17
    Teutonic Warlord's Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: More benefits for Orthodox Christianity?

    Quote Originally Posted by SturmChurro View Post
    I love Byzantium though I do think they are missing some in their roster. I have looked at some mods that completely overhaul the Byzantine roster.

    Like I have said before the glory of being an Orthodox faction is being able to attack Catholics and continue a war without getting exterminated and having a crusade or every catholic faction declaring war on you.
    I am probably going to import the extra Kingdoms units into the vanilla campaign to compensate for the smaller roster, along with some other changes. I have KGCM, but I would rather mod the vanilla campaign myself right now.

    When you are Orthodox, just ally with the Pope early on and watch your Catholic enemies get excommunicated. Or you could forget about allying with him, expand into Italy, and when he sends a large stack to attack one of your settlements, crush his forces, leave him Rome, and make him your...
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    ...vassal.
    Insert something witty or possibly out of context here.

  18. #18

    Default Re: More benefits for Orthodox Christianity?

    Well the reason Orthodox doesn't get crusades is because the leader of the Orthodox church, the Empire, does not understand holy wars, and viewed them as barbaric excuses to plunder:

    For the Byzantines, it must be said at the outset, both ideas and forms of holy war - jihad and crusade - were abhorrent. They absolutely rejected both. First, the jihad. They did not understand it. What motivated the armies of Islam, as the Byzantines saw it, was the hope of booty and a barbaric love of fighting. According to Leo VI, "The Sarcarens do not campaign out of a sense of military service and discipline, but rather out of a love of gain and license or, more exactly, in order to plunder on behalf of their faith." Leo dismisses them as "barbarians and infidels" concerned only with plunder. Immense multitudes of them come from Syria and Palestine, "oblivious to the dangers of war, intent only on looting." Byzantine authors, from the seventh to the fourteenth century, repeat these accusations, as they profess their utter repugnance for the doctrine of jihad. In their polemics against Islam they vehemently criticize the jihad as little more than a license for unjustified murder and a pretext for pillaging. And, while the Byzantines, when the opportunity arose, may have indulged in their share of massacre and looting, they did not excuse it in the name of religion.

    As far as the Crusades are concerned, it suffices to listen to Anna Komnene, who abhorred both the movement and many of its participants. Still, some Byzantines welcomed the Westerners at first. They were, after all, fellow Christians, although perhaps somewhat careless in their teachings and practices. Emperor Alexios treated them in a civil, almost cordial manner, although he was always nervous about what they might do, and he provided them with military assistance through Asia Minor. But in general, the Byzantines never seemed to understand why all those Western knights and their followers were marching through their land. Restoring Jerusalem to Christian rule was perhaps a laudable objective, but was it worth such an immense effort, fraught with so many perils and uncertainties and carried out with such burtality? Constantinople, after all, was the New Jerusalem, the true holy city. The Byzantines, always practical, were far more interested in possessing Antioch because of its important strategic position than in holding Jerusalem with all its sentimental value. Pilgrimage they understood and warfare they understood, but the conjoining of the two they did not understand. They would have been utterly appalled at the preaching of St. Bernard and his call for the extermination of the infidel, as well as his assertion that killing an enemy of Christ was not homicide, but malecide. And what would they have thought of the rule he drew up for the Templars, monks who wielded lethal weapons in battle? The Byzantines soon came to believe that the warriors from the West had nothing less in mind than the conquest of the empire, and the events of 1204 proved they were right. Ultimately, they came to hate the Latins as much or even more than the Muslims. If the Latins ever referred to their eastern expeditions as "holy war", that term, it is clear, would not have been appreciated by the Byzantines.
    As you can see, holy war will not be an option for Orthodox Christians any time soon.

  19. #19

    Default Re: More benefits for Orthodox Christianity?

    I think a bonus that Orthodox should get should be religious and cultural tolerance bonuses.

    For example, Catholic provinces with large muslim settlements might have high chance to revolt and low happiness, but that is BECAUSE of Catholic doctrines that allow the wholesale murder of non-catholics.

    Ditto for Muslims and jihad, of course you'll get revolts when you declare war on your own people.

    Since the Orthodox Patriarch would never endorse holy war and religiously justified murder, not officially anyway, and in fact historically they promoted religious tolerance and dialogue. They had large muslim and jewish districts within Constantinople and never made holy war on them.

    So thats my idea, religious tolerance bonuses.

  20. #20

    Default Re: More benefits for Orthodox Christianity?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hoki View Post
    I think a bonus that Orthodox should get should be religious and cultural tolerance bonuses.

    For example, Catholic provinces with large muslim settlements might have high chance to revolt and low happiness, but that is BECAUSE of Catholic doctrines that allow the wholesale murder of non-catholics.

    Ditto for Muslims and jihad, of course you'll get revolts when you declare war on your own people.

    Since the Orthodox Patriarch would never endorse holy war and religiously justified murder, not officially anyway, and in fact historically they promoted religious tolerance and dialogue. They had large muslim and jewish districts within Constantinople and never made holy war on them.

    So thats my idea, religious tolerance bonuses.
    Personally, I find that doubtful. I mean, maybe on occasion, Byzantines were tolerant of others -- but then again, the Moors were fairly tolerant too at times (Almoravid era), and the Holy Roman Empire/Sicily under Frederick II weren't too intolerant (although arguably that got him excommunicated). A lot of Byzantine history as I read it is like:

    "I agree that Christ had two natures, human and divine, but I think the two natures of Christ are joined in conjunction, not in hypostatic union."

    "What? Heresy! Renounce your faith in the conjunction of Christ's two natures, and affirm your faith in their hypostatic union!"

    "NEVER! I would rather die than embrace the lie of hypostatic union! CONJUCTION 4EVA!"

    "DIE, HERETIC!"

    As for the Russians, I don't know to what extent they were intolerant in the middle ages, but I know that the Romanovs were not renowned for their fair treatment of Jews, to put it mildly.

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