the pirat party, do they have a future or not?

[Georgi Schukov]

this will probably be more interesting to the germans here.
since the recent rise of the pirat party certainly didnt go by without catching the awareness of some europeans interested in politics i would like to read a few opinions about them.
i`ll start by arguing that they look unexperienced to me and rather naiv. they dont seem to be capable of taking responibilty in real politics. and watching them is like watching footage of the early green party in the early 80s. so they might get my vote after a learning period in wich they may have or have not proven to actualy make responsible decisions.

[Thorn777]

well kudos to their democratic drive and they have some nice points, but their basically performing very amateurish and will rather decline than grow because of that. which is good because at some point they need to get srs and not only worry about one set of things. anyway good to see its possible

[DimeBagHo]

Not about a current event. Moved from the Mudpit to the Academy. Please keep in mind that advocating changes to copyright law is OK, but advocating illegal activities like piracy is not.

[Denny Crane!]

New parties all seem to suffer that fate. I suspect it would only take a few seasoned defectors and a good political secretary to change that, but a single issue party? No. Much like UKIP, and they have an immensely talented orator to boot but success will never happen for them.

[Condottiere 40K]

Single issue on copyright will ensure they become a footnote in history, though I understand there's a manifesto outlining a more detailed proposal on it of around a hundred plus pages.

It has to evolve to deal with new challenges facing society in both the scientific and digital fields, as well as taking positions on more immediate social issues, perhaps shaping itself into a possible coalition partner for a more mainstream party without letting it being totally co-opted.

[Denny Crane!]

The name dooms them though, it screams we are a single issue party, a relatively minor issue at that given the scale of other problems.

[Condottiere 40K]

Maybe they change it to an acronym in a few years time once they set up more solid roots.

[eisenkopf]

That their approach to politics is "amateurish" is the very reason why they are so successfull. It's not their original agenda, but that they seem to be educated, well-behaving, non-radical (except copyright issues) citizens (not politicians!) trying to do it (politics) differently.

They are also working hard on becoming perceived as more than a single issue party, though their name indeed will become an obstacle to this.

You can see the panic of the other parties by their desperate attempt to accuse them of Nazi-relativism or dangerous historical ignorance, both usually the Hammer of Death in German politics. However, the Pirate Party responded well in their recent party convention. adding unanimously a passage to their manifesto that Holocaust revisionism would not be tolerated as freedom of speech.

The fate of the Pirate Party depends whether they can evade the deathly embrace of early coalition government. If they stay organized like this, gain experience and credibility as opposition, then they will stay.

Even if they don't: like the Greens thirty years past, they have brought an important topic on the general agenda, which can not be ignored anymore in the future by the established parties. And no, it's not about advocating piracy and abolishing copyright. It's about our freedom and (policital) participation in the digital age, something that was part of their agenda from the very start.

[Søren]

You can see the panic of the other parties by their desperate attempt to accuse them of Nazi-relativism or dangerous historical ignorance, both usually the Hammer of Death in German politics. However, the Pirate Party responded well in their recent party convention. adding unanimously a passage to their manifesto that Holocaust revisionism would not be tolerated as freedom of speech.

It's rather a joke to adopt a supposedly rebellious image as a "pirate" party, and then unanimously support making disputing the accuracy of a historical event, a criminal offence.

[eisenkopf]

It's rather a joke to adopt a supposedly rebellious image as a "pirate" party, and then unanimously support making disputing the accuracy of a historical event, a criminal offence.

First, they did not do that. They added a sentence in their party program that Holocaust revisionism would have no place in their party, being an exception to the general freedom of speech. There is not a single word about making it a criminal offense. So your argument is based on a false premise.

Second, I find your conclusion a joke. So, in order to uphold a rebellious image, one has to acknowledge all kinds of delusional world views? Should they welcome Intelligent Designers, Flat-Earthers and the like?

What the Pirate Party did was an important step to becoming party worthy of its name, a party that shows its "rebellious image" in its approach to making politics.

[Thorn777]

There comes a point "amateurish" starts to wear off. Specially when 5 years from now the most frequently used word remains "geil"(litterally horny but meaning cool, sweet, nice etc).

We all, or at least many like the kid, but at some point the kid needs to grow up and there is expected more from it.

[Aanker]

Sweden has an analogy to this, and even though the Pirate Party here was quite the trend for youths a few years back, it has lost traction and is now disappearing into nothingness. In my opinion a good development, as it was a populist-geared "political" movement that wanted to legalize stealing of digital media.

[Lordinquisitor]

The pirate party is the only good party in germany. The other parties have started to ruin our land.

[Georgi Schukov]

a lot of german conservatives told me, that for most of them it is a dream comming true. those who i spoke to told me that this party will only survive a few months after the next national election and that as long as they get protest votes from the social democrats and greens-thereby weakening the opposition, they have no problem with them as long as they cease to exist at one point.
the social democrats and greens somehow seem to not know how to react to this new movement wich is costing them a lot of the younger votes.

[eisenkopf]

a lot of german conservatives told me, that for most of them it is a dream comming true. those who i spoke to told me that this party will only survive a few months after the next national election and that as long as they get protest votes from the social democrats and greens-thereby weakening the opposition, they have no problem with them as long as they cease to exist at one point.
the social democrats and greens somehow seem to not know how to react to this new movement wich is costing them a lot of the younger votes.

Not sure whether it is a conservative dream, though. The Pirate Party also draws its electorate from the liberals, thus spelling doom to any possible FDP resurrection. As some commentators put it: If the Pirate Party stays afloat until the next Federal elections, we will likely have another Grand Coalition of SPD and CDU. In which the CDU could also be the junior partner. But I guess after this coalition with the FDP, that would be a relief/an improvement for the CDU...

[Georgi Schukov]

we will likely have another Grand Coalition of SPD and CDU. In which the CDU could also be the junior partner.

mhmm i`m not that sure about that, i think it is very likely that the cdu will not lose as much votes as some may think, and that the sp is more likly to end up as junior partner again.
and although a lot of people laught about this, a cdu-green coalition isn`t as unlikly as it was 10 years ago

[Claudius Gothicus]

Could some German citizen explain to me why did the CDU and the CSU held so much power historically speaking? I mean, their natural opponent is the SPD and they are not nearly as powerful and all-reaching as the conservatives.

[Georgi Schukov]

i`m not german, but a neigbour with friends and a lot of time spent there, from what i know it isn`t like you think. the cdu might had more power in the countryside, the csu in bavaria and the spd in citys and tradionaly working class states such as NRW. but a lot of events always changed the political landscape of germany
when the berlin wall came down the cdu recieved a lot of support from the east.
the decision by the spd chancelor helmut schmidt to bring american hersching missiles to germany left a lot of tradional spd voters voting someone else or no one
in the 80s the greens started to evolve out of the conservationist movement and gained a lot of support from the left as well as from conservative farmers and other people from the countryside.
the cuts made in social spending by the spd chancelor gerhard schröder gained votes for the spd from fiscal conservatives.
when the mayor of berlin came out as a gay and and insisted on there beeing nothing wrong with it and gained massive support, it forced other partys to modernise their views on social issues
joschka fischers great work as a foreign secretery changed a lot of peoples views of the greens as a "incompetent" party
merkel is currently trying to renovate the cdu`s image from the party of patriatic men (helmut kohl) to a modern not only family friendly but also genderequal party.
the big sensations in german politics last year was that germany had its first green ministerpresident (govenor) in baden würtenberg.
and that after fukushima the "pro nuclear power" cdu neoliberal coalition decided to shut down all nuclear powerplants in germany
the german political landscape is one that is constantly undergoing changes, people who have voted the same party for their entire life are dying out. who wins a election in germany depends more on who has the better argument than who has the largest amount of money, biggest büübs, believes in the god with the biggest bratwurst or who can see russia from their house.
and here in austria...... well let me quote a german poet:

if there should ever be an apocalypse, i`ll move to austria! because over there everything happens 20 years later!

wich forces open and tolerant citizens like me to spend more time in germany

[Mangalore]

Could some German citizen explain to me why did the CDU and the CSU held so much power historically speaking? I mean, their natural opponent is the SPD and they are not nearly as powerful and all-reaching as the conservatives.

Historically speaking the Germans were always a bit conservative.

The SPD was born as a revolutionary party within the not quite democratic imperial Germany. They were pretty radical pro worker movement and virtually the whole establishment, bourghoise included didn't like that. Their power centres were always in the industrial areas and obviously they were constantly lumped into the same pot as communists and revolutionaries even though they were the most pragmatic revolutionaries you could hope for (e.g. the SPD voted _for_ the war declarations in world war I so weren't precisely pacifist or anti nationalist even back then)

The CDU is a continuation of former conservative parties and get their main bases from the more wealthy as well as conservative agrarian areas.

The problem for the SPD for quite some time post 45 was that they once again were lumped together with communism (which was obviously bad with the Russians proving it) and that their voter base was very specific. Only when they reworked their party program post 45 to remove more socialist agendas did they start to expand their base.

Overall the SPD had similar size as the CDU from the 70s onward. There is also the issue that the CSU is actually its own party with a slightly different setup (it is Christian _Social_ Union, thus even more centrist aka adopting/hijacking SPD positions from time to time) so the SPD was the biggest singular party most of the time, but lacked coalition partners until the FDP decided that social liberal is still an aspect of liberalism.

The current problem of the SPD is that the traditional worker class is disolving and the German welfare state actually is/was pretty good so they have a hard time occupying positions which are not in fairytale land since that is what usually distinguishes them from other leftwing parties.

Ultimately any government in Germany thus far has been centrist in nature and the SPD needed more time to get out of her corner to establish a reputation that they are centrist, too. Today that's kind of their problem since the CDU has the natural flood barrier of anti fascism for anything right of her while the SPD has to content with competing ideas in the more left wing areas hence the appearance of the Greens, the Linke and potentially the pirate party aka a non economic liberal party (which is the kind of niche which in my eyes kills the FDP because just some time ago they were the only liberal party and didn't isolate themselves on solely economic issues but also stood for liberty in general).


That the CDU likes this is imo a myth. They are running out of allies and those left parties together occupy ever more positions. That the SPD starts to become the only alternative while the SPD herself can make coalitions with all other parties is not assuring at all. In several state elections now the SPD did form governments despite being nominally the smaller party to the CDU, but in contrast the CDU couldn't find coalition parties to support them. That the biggest party forms the government had been a longlasting tradition, but the legal setup is plainly who can get a parliamentary majority vote to establish a government so a coalition of smaller parties agreeing to form a government beats a bigger party without coalition partners.

There is also worries of a similar split within the conservative circles, particularly with Euro crisis. The CDU did soak up all the national parties in the past, this doesn't mean those voters are gone.

[Thrillology]

To me no matter what party changes Germany, I think that Germany should never have switched to the Euro.
The only way I think they could fix their economy is conquering some oil in the Middle East. :3