the Black Prince for Divus : Episode 2

[Omnipotent-Q]

After months of petty and pedantic wrangling over the status of the Right Honourable the Black Prince, "Speaker of the Curia", the Black Prince has made the very honourable and wise decision to relinquish his post of Divus due to mistaken information pertaining to his original Divus vote.

I however wish to re-nominate him for a vote to regain his deserved status. We can all agree that their may have been some mistakes made over dates and timings about the Black Prince's Triumvir tenure, but that doesn't change the fact of why a lot of us voted for him in the first place. "the Black Prince" has worked hard for this site. He has worked hard for its members, its civitates and all. For over three years he has been an integral part of the site, whether it has been moderating, administrating or bettering the Curia and the site for everyone around it to enjoy.

He has made major contributions and his honourable and wise decision to resign and put the Curia above his own status is yet another matter that highlights him as a grand role model for Civitates and members, by displaying a virile and impeccable code of conduct that we can all admire.

None of us can deny, even if we disagree with him from time to time, that the Black Prince put in a huge effort to further this site with his colleagues as a Triumvir and administrator, just as he has with every role he has had on this site.

the Black Prince deserves to be a Divus and we owe it to him to make him one. For that I nominate him to become a Divus once more and I call on Civitates, Patricians, Councillors, Senatorii or anyone else he's helped over the years to support this nomination. I commend this nomination and course of action to the house!

[Tom Paine]

I support this motion wholeheartedly. He has given a lot to the Total War Center forums, as political allies and enemies alike have acknowledged, and he deserves to be rewarded for this service to the site. Past mistakes have been acknowledged and redress has been made (his resignation a case in point). Are we to deny him the rank?

[Belisarius]

He has made major contributions and his honourable and wise decision to resign and put the Curia above his own status is yet another matter that highlights him as a grand role model for Civitates and members, by displaying a virile and impeccable code of conduct that we can all admire.

And obviously has nothing to do with this thread - http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=53677 that was posted what? Less then a hour before. You see honour, I see a political move. Ah well, I might still vote yes, but tBP is on the same footing and standard as both Sulla and Seleukos, Sulla he claims is not suitable so on that basis, I'll probably vote no.

I'd also like to add that the fact he refuses to take Justinian out of his signature also casts a bad light on his "honour", as does the title of "Speaker of the curia".

[Justinian]

I cannot in good faith support the candidacy of someone who would have the very post he aims for held away from someone who is equally, if not more, deserving (Sulla).

Sulla saved the site, tBP tried to shut it down.

While undoubtedly tBP loves TWC and has been instrumental in its history and rise to power, I will never support his bid for Divus if he hypocritically does not support Sulla's.

I am also distressed by his failure to remove outright lies from his signature.

[Sétanta]

I too support the Black Prince for Divus. It has always been my beliefs that tBP deserves the rank for his time as a Triumvir (So does Sulla, but then again, Sulla has staited that he wants to remain Senatorii)

[PyrrhusIV]

I wholeheartedly support this nomination. Other than being a close friend of mine, his contribution to the site, which I have seen through my own eyes for over 3 years now, cannot be ignored..

[Wild Bill Kelso]

I would have offered my support, if he would have faced the facts at the time they were brought up. Even after his two week absence he still skated around the issue. It was only after extreme pressure was applied 3 months later (perhaps he was hoping the issue would simply disappear) did he do the honourable thing. I must regretfully not support.

[Romanos]

This is somewhat of hard decision seeing that tBP is a respected member and is so called nickname "Speaker of the Curia" but still he seems to not accept the fact that Sulla deserve (maybe even more the title Divus) and he did try to destroy this site at one point. Hard decision indeed.

[Garbarsardar]

Since Divus is the highest award on this site I suggest we all examine tBP's behaviour and judge if his contribuitions outweight the damage he caused and the damage he intended to cause.

If tBP had his way, the Curia would not exist:

When the Constitution was being passed, who was against it? tBP.
Who tried to underhandledy make it fail by not showing up for the final vote that Paul stipulated ? tBP. Who quibbled with Sib and me even after assigning the Curia to make himself SOLE Admin with moderator powers? tBP. Thus started his tyrannical streak.

While Admin, he conattly badgered and with beaurocratic morass stifled the early Curia, having won ourselves and you the memebrs and civitates newborn and unprecedented freedoms, we the staff went along in sake of compromise. Things didn't not change for the better, however. The Curia and the site flourished, members can attest to having their amendments pass, the democracy was also a meritocracy, where proven members , true , loyal and intelligent, could be a great power in the site. tBP did not like this.

His constant beaurocracy and hampering of the staff to make the site a better place eventually drove me to resign, and i did so without fuss, to not create a larger mess than what tbp was already brewing up by himself.

Now with the move, he did away with all the hard work many civitates did and even the Curia, and the hard work it took to pass it by him. He made it clear he didnt want a curia, Proof Positive.

So it is obvious that tBP does not want a Curia. He wants all the power for himself.

When Confronted by the staff majority, he outright lied and said one will be instated when it was "necessary". Even after I offered my services to help out on the site, he refused a curia, as you can see above, he had no intention of having gone.

NO CURIA
NO CONSTITUTION
ONLY TWO ADMIN
DIFFERENT MODS
NO QUESTORS

As each and every change was shoved down our throats, it became clear to every mod what must be done. Drastic action had to be taken. Before you think our action hasty, you should know that we asked again and again, and even attacked and ridiculed tBP for his new title and government. But he refused to change anything. He just insisted-the curia will not be established now, maybe later (adding it was always a flowery and silly thing) and that the curia would have a different name, and no polls would be allowed!

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1543


Nor the TWC, for that matter:

I have voted with a heavy heart. I can clearly see here an attempt to overthrow the curia system and replace it with a "I say it is so, so it is" kind of thing. This was, by itself bad enough, but the attempt to delete the forum using a third person, a stranger, is even worse. As much as it pains me to say it, TBP didn't have enough guts to do it himself. At least that would be a manly atitude. But using this so called "hacker" (who needed the password to do his nasty work ) to harm the history of TWC is without forgiveness.

I can understand that TBP was not happy with the system, but he could have just launched a new site with his rules (anyone can do this really). The attack on TWC itself was a childish thing to do, and not worthy of a responsible admin. However I would still like to see some sort of coherent defence by TBP.

Aden Cadarn says:
and i can access the server
Aden Cadarn says:
i have the power todelete the forums
"tnilF regoR ocilaC" - DOORf says:
Then do so
Aden Cadarn says:
to destroy the site

2/16/04* 12:35:38 PM* "tnilF regoR ocilaC" - DOORf* Aden Cadarn, Trobalov-Hope always dies last!* But somethings have to be done

2/16/04* 12:35:39 PM* Aden Cadarn* "tnilF regoR ocilaC" - DOORf, Trobalov-Hope always dies last!* you took my community from me

2/16/04* 12:35:44 PM* Aden Cadarn* "tnilF regoR ocilaC" - DOORf, Trobalov-Hope always dies last!* now i shall take it from you

2/16/04* 12:36:01 PM* Aden Cadarn* "tnilF regoR ocilaC" - DOORf, Trobalov-Hope always dies last!* goodbye TWC

2/16/04* 12:36:09 PM* Aden Cadarn* "tnilF regoR ocilaC" - DOORf, Trobalov-Hope always dies last!* this is the time for a new order

2/16/04* 12:36:47 PM* "tnilF regoR ocilaC" - DOORf* Aden Cadarn, Trobalov-Hope always dies last!* I should tell you that we made backups

2/16/04* 12:36:53 PM* "tnilF regoR ocilaC" - DOORf* Aden Cadarn, Trobalov-Hope always dies last!* I see you have deleted it all

2/16/04* 12:37:49 PM* Trobalov-Hope always dies last!* "tnilF regoR ocilaC" - DOORf, Aden Cadarn* I also noticed

2/16/04* 12:38:40 PM* "tnilF regoR ocilaC" - DOORf* Aden Cadarn, Trobalov-Hope always dies last!* It matters not however

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1579

And the TWC was deleted soon after.

So the Curia is called to give an award to the person that never wanted the Curia to be, on a site he considered his personal property and attempted to delete when it was "taken away from him" ?

I cannot support this.

[Fabolous]

I'd also like to add that the fact he refuses to take Justinian out of his signature also casts a bad light on his "honour", as does the title of "Speaker of the curia".

He call himself whatever he wants and it won't effect my vote, doesn't that seem a tad petty to vote against because off?

As for Justinian, he has every right to keep him in his sig. He did patronize Justinian. Just like Sim keeps my name in his. Yes, I am your client now, but he still patronized me and can say so.

stop trashing tBP becuase of his opinions of Sulla. It is completly irrelevant to this vote.

Indeed. If not supporting Sulla makes you unfit for high ranks, I should be banned.

Actually, does tBP even go against Sulla for divus? I know he posted against revotes, but I don't remember him posting anything else in that thread. I know of a few people who don't care about Sulla being divus but just are against a revote. He might have gone against in the first vote though...


I have not decided whether to support. I might, simply because he passed his vote once before, and had every right to hold on to it, but resigned it anyways. However, I am not fully convinced he deserves the highest honor this site can give, he has a troubled past. More later...

[Omnipotent-Q]

And obviously has nothing to do with this thread - http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=53677 that was posted what? Less then a hour before. You see honour, I see a political move. Ah well, I might still vote yes, but tBP is on the same footing and standard as both Sulla and Seleukos, Sulla he claims is not suitable so on that basis, I'll probably vote no.

I'd also like to add that the fact he refuses to take Justinian out of his signature also casts a bad light on his "honour", as does the title of "Speaker of the curia".

So you are saying that the Black Prince considering your petition and deciding to resign instead of fighting your "revote" is a sign of a political move? No, the political move would be to fight on and he gave clear reasons why he wasn't going to do that. You have no justification but a false assumption to say that it was a political move.

Lets look at two of your quotes from the "petition" now:

inaccurate of blatantly false information

Really? So you're suggesting that Simetrical (Who I gather must have been Pro-Curator at the time) decided to create a vote knowing full well that the times posted were "blatantly false information". It also suggests as fact, when there's evidence to the contray that tBP deliberately misled the Curia, and that the debates over the timings of which WBK was a part of were completely pointless because we apparently all knew that it was "blatantly false information".

Imagine I introduced legislation on the basis on facts that I provide backing up the need for said legislation and then once implemented it comes to light that my facts were made up. I’m sure most of you would agree that the legislation would and should be reversed and I would probably be ostracized! The only thing saving Senatorii the Black Prince from ostrakon is the fact it could have been a genuine error.

Have you any evidence to prove he deliberately misled the Curia? It wouldn't make sense for him to mislead it, then speak to Paul a while afterwards to find out what he apparently all ready knew and that was that he didn't serve for 11 months. Civitates vote on facts, not what theories you can come up with.

"Political move" is exactly the connotation I would give to your "Curia wants a Revote petition". I don't know what you're current communications with the Black Prince are, but there are certain well known "old scores" between you and him that makes you far from neutral in such a vote. Not only that, but it sounds like one way or another; you would have said it was a political move anyway.

He has noted that he has been very busy and unable to keep up with the Divus discussions. When told to categorically told to stand down by a proportion of the Curia (Which had not happened before, unless you want to link me to several "tBP should resign" posts), he did.

The "Speaker of the Curia" thing is obviously not meant as something serious. You seem to acknowledge him as "Leader of the Opposition" in this thread when that's an un-appointed, self-proclaimed title also only recognised by the Black Prince. There is no difference in the two, other than this one is one you can mould into a pedantic political excuse to oppose.

A disagreement over a signature line is also irrelevant to this, and that's up for Justinian and tBP to sort out themselves.

Your patent and subjective lack of acknowledgement to the fact he has served the site well, whether there was a mix up over the times or not is also the work of the Statesman within, in my opinion. After all, you probably wouldn't want us to discuss his efforts to improve the site in several site roles, when it would suit your interests more to discuss the mixing up of events that happened several years ago. It would of course explain your decision to gloss over the rest of the nomination I posted and your efforts to turn this into another "tBP got the times mixed up" discussion.

The time mistakes discussions have gone on long enough. Its time we moved on and recognise the many contributions he has made to the site and the Curia. Yes he wasn't supportive of the Curia at its introduction, it was of course a radical idea. But over time, no one can deny he now supports it as an institution. It’s about time people looked at a Divus vote on its merits. It’s about time to give speculation and political intrigue a rest.


Everyone makes mistakes. (Well....except me )

So am i to belive that should tBp be voted as Divus, and then facts be reveled that show him to have done something which caused him to lose his position in staff

How do you know? He could have lost his place due to some inactivity caused by being busy. As LV has said, it's none of your business. As Mithras says, administration of this site (Which includes moderating) should be kept out of Curia bickering. Once again, this is a case of posting an opinion on the facts, not what speculation you feel like coming up with.

[Halie Satanus]

How do you know? He could have lost his place due to some inactivity caused by being busy. As LV has said, it's none of your business. As Mithras says, administration of this site (Which includes moderating) should be kept out of Curia bickering. Once again, this is a case of posting an opinion on the facts, not what speculation you feel like coming up with.

The reasons for tBP being fired from staff are not pertinent to the issue in question. Please refrain from discussing it here.

Try to read all the relevant posts in future. at no point did I speculate on why, i asked for facts, not hearsay,

As LV has said, it's none of your business.

Are you also in the habit of putting words in other peoples mouths,i don't recall LV saying it was none of my business, but in fact that it was none of his, perhaps in your haste you miss read him. please go back and read his post properly aswell, treacle. :wink:

[Garbarsardar]

@Omni-Q

You seem to be mising the main point of objections. That is that tBP attempted to delete TWC, and it took a revolution for the Curia to start functionning. A revolution against tBP. For his services as staff he has been awarder the title of Senatori and that is in exactly aknowledgment of his contribuition. Since Divus is a curial award of the TWC, for me it's a mockery to support the award to a member that would have deprived us of both Curia and TWC.

[Omnipotent-Q]

Are you also in the habit of putting words in other peoples mouths,i don't recall LV saying it was none of my business, but in fact that it was none of his, perhaps in your haste you miss read him. please go back and read his post properly aswell, treacle. :wink:

It was implied by this:

Staff recently adopted the policy of not taking staff issues to the curia

Does that post suggest that Staff issues are Curia business? No it doesn't.

@Omni-Q
That is that tBP attempted to delete TWC

I was under the impression that he didn't.

How did this stranger know Sibs full name, strange?

Friends talking to one another?? Unbelievable!

Anyone notice the Grammar and the lack of Capitals?

Yes. That narrows down the person who created the letter to the majority of the internet.

So you wrote the password to the site down on a notepad, and then you left them in clear view of anyone who might be anywhere near your computer, knowing, if you were such a close friend to "Keiran" and "Ricky Wood", that one of them would be drop by and see it if they looked in the direction of your computer.

You left highly sensitive information in clear view, with no security measures?

That's not the stupidest story I've heard.
-----Off Topic Story-----
On Counter-strike Nation a while back when someone guessed Game Development Leader Jess Cliffe's password as being "cliffe" springs to mind. That case was particularly hilarious though as the "hacker" then posted in the news comments, only he decided to register with his Gamespot email address. Of course his phone number was helpfully left in his Gamespot profile for the server admins to ring him up. What a laugh.
-----Off Topic Story END-----
What I don't get is, LV and Justinian are happy to say "he deleted the site because some chat log is complete proof" to stop him being a Divus, but they were until recently happy to give him, support him having and perhaps even hire him as a moderator with access to delete threads, ban members and various other abilities. Why when they are so worried and convinced he deleted the site do they find it is acceptable to give him numerous forum access rights and not question that position or object to it in the recent Quaestor ratification vote, but then argue they're not happy with him getting an honoury rank. It's a position that stinks of bias.

Do you think any jury would believe a recorded confession from the "perpatrator", who happened to have the exact same voice and manner of speaking as the defendant?

I didn't think so.

You cannot prove a chat log came from the source it claims and that it wasn't unduly edited, where these problems don't exist in your analogy.

[Justinian]

We refuse to give this honor to the man who saved the site and are falling over ourselves to give it to the man who deleted it. Instead of bestowing honor upon he who kept this site alive in its hardest days, you want to give it to someone who tried to kill it because his feelings had been hurt.

[Kscott]

stop trashing tBP becuase of his opinions of Sulla. It is completly irrelevant to this vote.

Now, as for whether he is divus material or not, I would think so. He has been with this site for one hell of a long time and done considerable good, atleast of my knowledge of events.

[Romanos]

stop trashing tBP becuase of his opinions of Sulla. It is completly irrelevant to this vote.

Now, as for whether he is divus material or not, I would think so. He has been with this site for one hell of a long time and done considerable good, atleast of my knowledge of events.

Chor if you look at LV post (I cant beleive you miss that) it show what tBP did to the site and as nothing to do with Sulla.

oh and read the third post after Sulla (ironic) (Yea its not much but.....)

[Kscott]

Chor if you look at LV post (I cant beleive you miss that) it show what tBP did to the site and as nothing to do with Sulla.

oh and read the third post after Sulla (ironic) (Yea its not much but.....)

I was simply reffering to the many instances of people trashing him for his stance on Sulla.

I realize tBP might have done some less than favorable thigns, but every issue is rather complicated and I think that tBP is makes the cut for Divus. His contemporary Sibs voted yes on him last time and that tells us something.

Anyways, I got other things at the moment so don't expect a full argument from me.

[Last Roman]

ah, good ol' curia squabling is back. how I missed thee. Now, in light of the stuff brought up by LV and Garb, I'm inclined not to support such a move.

edit: wait, didn't the tBP say he doesn't want the divus rank anyway?

[Kscott]

He definatly wants to be Divus. He simply resigned under pressure.

Now there is alot of critisim for him no resinging earlier, but I can understand. I admit if asked to give up my senatorii badge because I had served a week to short or something(not the criteria for senatorii, but im using an example) I would fight to keep my badge till the end. Its very hard to give up an honor that you have prided yourself so much on.