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  1. #1

    Default I just lost wtf? (long post)

    Why is this game so hard?

    Playing my first campaign and here is how it went/going:

    > Played as England.

    > Macro strategy was to gain foothold in western europe with a line of coastal castles from Rennes to Antwerp, to protect all the cities on the british islands. and then make peace with neighbors and go attack the "muzzies".

    > It took some time for me to do this, as I took, lost and retook Antwerp about a dozen times in a series of battles with france and then denmark. Why? For some reason the gates keep opening, even though I have a 10/10 spy in there to find tratiors.

    > Anyways, I build a fleet and sail to jerusalem, take it and get booted out by rebels... took a few turns to lock it down including sailing ANOTHER fleet across the board loaded with spies, priests and some assassins and troops. finally i decide to take it slower over there due to religion and took Acre instead as it was a castle instead of a city = better troops.

    > Acre is the most useful castle on the map.

    > So Im fighting down there for awhile, and manage to take from Gaza up to Antioch but it is slow going with limited troop production, endless waves of egyptian peasants grinding down my defenses..

    > So there i am managing to secure Gaza, and fiinally took Antioch after the purple faction and I contested it for a few turns.

    > then what the heck??? some faction comes in from the east (nowhere) with a dozen armies and beat back me and purple from antioch. the mongolians i think. they took antioch, the one beside it, damascus, jerusalem, jedda, and gaza, they beat back the egyptians and had me on the ropes in Acre... they were attacking and attacking it over and over. many holes in the walls and no towers. its bs i cannot repair before the next attack. i managed to hold barely with troop strength in only double digits.

    > anyways, there i am hanging on by a fingernail. i send another "aid fleet" from england (so far!!!) and i have held Acre.

    > unfortunately the milans werent too friendly due to my warring with Denmark and France (diplomacy not going so well) and intercepted my aid fleet near sicily.

    > i manage to beat back a few more armies at Acre with stakes at the gates of the fortress and yeomans, but never time to repair or retrain, slowly being eaten away.

    > I decide to cut my losses since i lost the aid fleet, and retreated from Acre to the island there which was just rebels.. i took it and hunkered down for a few more turns until another aid fleet arrived.

    > so i build up on the island and then invade and take Acre again, it wasnt too hard. i learned from before and had about 20 priests to disperse around from Jedda up to Antioch..

    > Everything is going fine i have beaten back to mongolians and retaken from Antioch to Gaza. I never really conquered Jedda as mongolians kept sending armies down from baghdad and it was too far over to intercept and a long way to send help from Gaza. and i get smashed when i fight the mongolians in the desert.

    > the fighting is hot and i sink A LOT of time and florins into defending Antioch as the dang mongolians are attacking it every turn. in about 50 turns i probably lost retook lost retook lost again and retook again, about a dozen times. spear militia just doesnt hold the line and i can only train in Acre.

    > I couldnt take the castle next to Antioch because there was a constant half dozen loaded mongolians hordes in between antioch and it. it was their capitol.

    > meanwhile in europe ive taken most of frances territory from Antwerp down to Toulouse.

    > then out of nowhere these other mongolians (timurs???) come with elephants and i cant even fight them in the field my game freezes with the elephants. i got absolutely smashed by the timurs. i had taken along the coast over to madgeburg at that point, and i had substantial garrisons in hamburg/madgeburg/antwerp due to constant denmark/france/poland attacks.

    > the timurs carved through poland and russian and went straight for my castles hamburg/madgeburg.. i invested heavily there and they just penetrated me easily because i couldnt fight battle map or game froze. i send a sizeable army from rennes/caen/bruges/antwerp, but they just got slaughtered between antwerp and hamburg by just a few eleophants.

    > i lost antwerp but retook it and sent assassins to destroy all their "Caliphs stables". i must have sent 100 assassins over the next few dozen turns to as many castles as i could find of theirs and destroyed all the elephant producers. i was holding at antwerp but denmark allied with them so they were patrolling between antwerp and hamburg and i couldnt fight them in the field..

    > zoom out: by that time, the Roman Empire faction had almost all of the middle of the board, and was warring against me and i couldnt ally.

    > and heres where it all falls apart:

    > within three turns mongolians and timurs and roman empire were all allies.

    > i am now beaten back in europe right to the ocean, holding at angers/caen/bruges/antwerp.

    > I just got fully evicted from the middle east, Acre just got taken by a renewed mongolian horde after i sunk a LOT more florins into the area to hold the region. it is lost, i lost gaza/jedda/jerusalem/Acre/antioch all within about 15 turns. i now hold only the castles angers/caen/bruges/antwerp and then i still hold the english homeland.

    > about 150 turns of effort were just undone in the middle east, i am fighting a losing battle against elephant tanks losing 10 men for every 1 killed, and i am begging the roman faction to break their alliance with both although it controls the whole center of the board... my only allies are spain and sicily.

    > and to top it off, i am bankrupt.

    ---

    WHY IS THIS GAME SO HARD???

    migt have to lower the difficulty?

  2. #2
    lolIsuck's Avatar WE HAVE NO CAKE!
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    Default Re: I just lost wtf? (long post)

    You're obviously doing it wrong then.

    1. Do not try to hold on to the Holy Land unless it's late in game, you have secured your position on the home front and can create the best troops.

    2. You must be a real bad strategist losing dozens of battles against France and Denmark, losing one or two against a huge stack in a surprise attack maybe, but if they keep attacking your cities you pump them full with whatever units you can recruit. Spear militia is fine too, they can hold lines against most enemies.

    3. Don't create too many fronts, as England you should first secure the entire British Isles so you have a good economical base, convert your castles on the island to make even more money, keep one though in case Portugal or Spain feels the urge to build another armada. Don't build useless buildings, barracks are not needed in places like Dublin. Focus on economical buildings and townhalls and brothels to encourage population growth. Taking Rennes at the start of the campaign can be easily done too as you get an army near Caen and with some troops from the city itself you should be able to manage that. After you've completed your British conquest you can attack everything like an idiot but don't do that from the start.

    I have a few questions for you:
    Do you assault or maintain siege to starve them out? I guess you assault and lose quite some men in that and then your halfdead armies are attacked.
    What difficulty do you play on? If you struggle with the game it is of course better to lower it.
    And because I'm curious, how many battles have you lost in this campaign? And how many did you win of course.

    Also, spamming agents isn't neccesary, you do not need 20 priests to convert the Holy Land, 5 will be just fine.

  3. #3

    Default Re: I just lost wtf? (long post)

    Quote Originally Posted by lolIsuck View Post
    You're obviously doing it wrong then.

    1. Do not try to hold on to the Holy Land unless it's late in game, you have secured your position on the home front and can create the best troops.

    yeah hindsight smart idea. my macro strategy was to hold a strong position in western europe, and then grow my empire in the east so as not war with my christian neighbors. that didnt work so well but i tihnk i could have done diplomacy with france/denmark a little better. they just were always breaking the ceasefires.

    i got absolutely demolished in th eeast and probably had 1:1 win/loss ratio. every time i battled the turks/egyptians/mongolians in the open my infantry and archers got demolished and the mailed knights are very fragile.

    i just kept sending medium-strength armies to all the different places i was trying to take, from Acre... such as Gaza, Jedda (too far), antioch and aleppo(sp?). they would either get intercepted and id take heavy losses and win, or heavy losses and lose. if they didnt get intercepted id battle for the city and then struggle to hold it with half strength and rioting population. i learned that lesson though... priests before troops.

    2. You must be a real bad strategist losing dozens of battles against France and Denmark, losing one or two against a huge stack in a surprise attack maybe, but if they keep attacking your cities you pump them full with whatever units you can recruit. Spear militia is fine too, they can hold lines against most enemies.

    denmark and france attacked antwerp almost every turn, and there is a glitch in my campaign were the gates keep opening when antwerp is attacked... they send heavy cav and infantry always so its a grind. i had defensive/alliance policy goals in europe at the time as i was investing heavily in infrastructure over in the east. ie. ships to get there, barracks/etc.

    i never fought in the open in europe but i did not realize the stakes infront of gate idea until the mongolians came.

    3. Don't create too many fronts, as England you should first secure the entire British Isles so you have a good economical base, convert your castles on the island to make even more money, keep one though in case Portugal or Spain feels the urge to build another armada. Don't build useless buildings, barracks are not needed in places like Dublin. Focus on economical buildings and townhalls and brothels to encourage population growth. Taking Rennes at the start of the campaign can be easily done too as you get an army near Caen and with some troops from the city itself you should be able to manage that. After you've completed your British conquest you can attack everything like an idiot but don't do that from the start.

    yeah good point. i was fighting the denmark/france alliance, and fighting the egyptians/turks/purple faction in the east ... and then i was fighting (being molested by) the mongolians speedy horses... i finally managed to stabilize the area there... and then... i got attacked up in the north by the timurs... spent waaayyy too much against them and got destroyed due to elephant glitch. could never hold cities when their attacked.

    so when the timurs/mongolians/roman empire all allied they controlled well over half the board and i had no money from being torn apart by elephants (swordsman suck against elephants)... mongolians tore me to shreds and kicked me out of the antioch---gaza area. and timurs beat me right back to bruges/antwerp. i dont know where they even came from gold bar armies.

    I have a few questions for you:
    Do you assault or maintain siege to starve them out? I guess you assault and lose quite some men in that and then your halfdead armies are attacked.

    i do assault i never back away from a fight even 1:10 odds. my problem is when i take it in the east my guys are rioting and i can only build militia, and yes half strength and pressed elsewhere... too many fronts even though it was supposed to only be europe-defense, east-offense.

    What difficulty do you play on? If you struggle with the game it is of course better to lower it.
    And because I'm curious, how many battles have you lost in this campaign? And how many did you win of course.

    i played on very hard, campaign and battles. i dont remember how many battles id have to fire up the game, but my ratio was hovering around 2:1 by the end. half my wins were defensive seige battles, and most of my losses were field battles against mongols/egyptians(not many) and of course dozens against the timurs trying to hold back the elephants with auto resolve defeats.

    Also, spamming agents isn't neccesary, you do not need 20 priests to convert the Holy Land, 5 will be just fine.

    doesnt it go faster with more priests? and the assassins taking out the caliphs stables in asia was the only reason i lasted any length of time against the timurs. any battle against elephant tanks was a loss, even defensive seige with full deck.

    --

    i think the game would have gone differently if

    a) Milan didnt sink my reinforcements en route to jerusalem.
    b) i knew there was a mega faction competing for the same territory i was, the jerusalem/antioch belt.
    c) i could actually fight the timurs on the battle map.. my game glitched out every battle against the elephants. the result was huge spending to hold them back and still getting smashed.. i did not know what troops to send against them bc i could never fight them. i always sent swordsmen and knights (like i send against everyone else) and got obliterated.
    in bold

  4. #4
    NobleNick's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: I just lost wtf? (long post)

    Agreed with pretty much everything lolIsuck posted. Please find a few of my thoughts, inserted into your conversation.
    Quote Originally Posted by MDCCLXXVI View Post
    Originally Posted by lolIsuck
    1. Do not try to hold on to the Holy Land unless it's late in game, you have secured your position on the home front and can create the best troops.

    yeah hindsight smart idea. my macro strategy was to hold a strong position in western europe, and then grow my empire in the east so as not war with my christian neighbors....i got absolutely demolished in th eeast and probably had 1:1 win/loss ratio. ... every time i battled the turks/egyptians/mongolians in the open my infantry and archers got demolished and the mailed knights are very fragile...
    The best idea is to either:
    A.) Not go to the east, until some other faction has absorbed the brunt of the Mongols' rage, or...
    B.) Win by turn 90 or so (QUITE doable on H/H), which is before the Mongols pick up steam; and WAY before the Timurids show up.

    Oh, and I can not leave this without saying: Mailed Knights are NOT fragile: They are some of the toughest units in the game. Yes, England's knights are not at the very tip-top pinnacle of knighthood; but are still very tough, indeed. If used correctly, they can beat France's cav, which are (as far as playable factions go) at the tip-top pinnacle of cav power. If your knights are getting spanked, you are either facing overwhelming odds or are not using them correctly.


    ...i just kept sending medium-strength armies to all the different places i was trying to take, from Acre... such as Gaza, Jedda (too far), antioch and aleppo(sp?). they would either get intercepted and id take heavy losses and win, or heavy losses and lose. if they didnt get intercepted id battle for the city and then struggle to hold it with half strength and rioting population. i learned that lesson though... priests before troops....
    First rule of warfare (brought to you courtesy of the French, German, English, and U.S. militaries) : Never get involved in a land war in Asia... unless you are from Asia. When playing M2TW, as the Moors or as a western European power, I only break this rule AFTER the ENTIRE European continent wears my faction's color.
    3. Don't create too many fronts, as England you should first secure the entire British Isles so you have a good economical base, convert your castles on the island to make even more money, keep one ... Don't build useless buildings ... Focus on economical buildings and townhalls and brothels to encourage population growth. ... After you've completed your British conquest you can attack everything like an idiot but don't do that from the start.
    If, by "everything," you mean "everything in France, then everything in Iberia, then everything in middle Europe, then everything in southern Europe;" then a hearty "Amen" to that paragraph.

    (EDIT: I see your post, below, lolIsuck. Heh, heh, heh... figured you were being tongue in cheek. Wanted to make sure the OP didn't take you too seriously on that last point! )


    I have a few questions for you:
    Do you assault or maintain siege to starve them out? I guess you assault and lose quite some men in that and then your halfdead armies are attacked.

    i do assault i never back away from a fight even 1:10 odds. my problem is when i take it in the east my guys are rioting and i can only build militia, and yes half strength and pressed elsewhere... too many fronts even though it was supposed to only be europe-defense, east-offense....
    Both ways have advantages (and disadvantages). If you have a clearly superior force with the right mix of troops, you can assault and take a city with light losses, and save turns on the campaign. However, if you are not clearly superior, best to starve them out and force a sally.

    What difficulty do you play on? If you struggle with the game it is of course better to lower it. ... And because I'm curious, how many battles have you lost in this campaign? And how many did you win of course.

    i played on very hard, campaign and battles. i dont remember how many battles id have to fire up the game, but my ratio was hovering around 2:1 by the end. half my wins were defensive seige battles, and most of my losses were field battles against mongols/egyptians(not many) and of course dozens against the timurs trying to hold back the elephants with auto resolve defeats....
    HOLD THE BUS!!! Did I hear you right? You are playing on VH/VH and... wondering why the game is so hard?!?!? ... Oh please...

    I've prosecuted many VH/VH campaigns in RTW, and even I don't do that in M2TW. M2TW is harder than RTW, and so I have (so far) stuck to H/H. Not because I don't think I could win a VH/VH campaign; but just because I find it more fun to play M2TW on H/H. Maybe you will find it more fun that way, too.

    Ahh... This might be why you think the knights are fragile: they (along with ALL your other units) are taking a big morale hit, because of the VH battle difficulty. Yeah, step down the difficulty a bit and see if you don't enjoy the game a bit more.


    Also, spamming agents isn't neccesary, you do not need 20 priests to convert the Holy Land, 5 will be just fine.

    doesnt it go faster with more priests? and the assassins taking out the caliphs stables in asia was the only reason i lasted any length of time against the timurs. any battle against elephant tanks was a loss, even defensive seige with full deck...
    Yes, it goes faster with more priests. Find the right mix. 20 is clearly overkill.

    The best defense against the elephants is to not face them: win the game before turn 100. Failing that, one of the best techniques is to use lots of flaming arrows (then watch the ellephants kill Timurids).


    i think the game would have gone differently if

    a) Milan didnt sink my reinforcements en route to jerusalem.
    b) i knew there was a mega faction competing for the same territory i was, the jerusalem/antioch belt.
    c) i could actually fight the timurs on the battle map.. my game glitched out every battle against the elephants. the result was huge spending to hold them back and still getting smashed.. i did not know what troops to send against them bc i could never fight them. i always sent swordsmen and knights (like i send against everyone else) and got obliterated.
    d.) You had played on H/H or even N/N, -NOT- VH/VH.
    e.) You had not started an action which forced you to support a distant land campaign. Do you know what the "distance-to-capital" happiness penalty must have been for your Asian settlements?
    f.) You had won the game before the Timurids showed up.
    Last edited by NobleNick; April 25, 2012 at 12:55 PM.

  5. #5
    Silverheart's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: I just lost wtf? (long post)

    So you were unprepared for the Hordes - no reason to get upset over that. Most everyone gets surprised by those the first times.
    I am more bothered with the fact that you managed to lose as England, since that´s one of the easiest factions in the game - they have a great unit roster, great starting position, potential for great economy and all the makings for easy ascension to greatness.

    If you´re a beginner at Total War games, I suggest lowering the difficulty to lowest and retrying England.
    The next time around, focus more on home - conquer the entire British isles and eradicate the Scots. When all of Britannia is under your control, convert all settlements but one or two to cities (for better economy) and set up a strong defense on the continental frontline.
    THEN you can start thinking of setting up distant colonies and such. Make heavy use of Knights + Longbowmen early on, and improved longbowmen + heavy infantry when they become available.
    I also suggest looking in the section for Strategies and Guides (Nazgulkillers´ M2TW starter guide should be very handy to a beginner).

    If you have any other specific questions, just ask away!
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  6. #6
    Silverheart's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: I just lost wtf? (long post)

    You mentioned that your game "glitches out" when you try to fight battles against Timurid Elephant units... Do you mean that it shuts down, and that you simply can´t fight such battles on the battle map? Because that´s a common problem.
    If it is so, you should probably post a thread asking for help about that in the "Technical Help"-section -then you´ll find all the info you need on how to fix it.
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  7. #7
    lolIsuck's Avatar WE HAVE NO CAKE!
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    Default Re: I just lost wtf? (long post)

    All I can say about fighting the hordes is either full stacks in cities with ballista/canon towers or bridge battles with artillery and missiles.

  8. #8
    Alexanderos's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: I just lost wtf? (long post)

    If you are new to the game , play the tutorial.

    Then , start a short campaign with full advice on easy/easy. It's a piece of cake if you play as England . If you finish it , start a longer one with low advice and medium/hard difficulty. Simple as that. If you want to get your butt kicked far worse than you say you did , give it very hard/very hard. If you survive 50 turns as France , you have my respect.

    Tip for holding to horde sieges far easier : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vHt9yObaga0

  9. #9
    lolIsuck's Avatar WE HAVE NO CAKE!
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    Default Re: I just lost wtf? (long post)

    You're doing stuff wrong too then Alexanderos, France is pretty easy, the hardest part is economy.

  10. #10
    Alexanderos's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: I just lost wtf? (long post)

    Oh really ? On vh/vh you get attacked from milan , hre , england and sometimes span or portugal and trust me , i know what i'm saying it will be very , very hard The milanese have those crossbows who will own anything you have to counter , mostly archers and heavy infantry is just a play for them And those spanish jinetes , don't even get me started.

  11. #11
    lolIsuck's Avatar WE HAVE NO CAKE!
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    Default Re: I just lost wtf? (long post)

    Because of the enemy's retarded use of missiles you can crush a few units of Genoese crossbowmen with one unit of cavalry, missile cav is countered with missile infantry. I don't see any problems. As France you should rely mainly on your knights, most early infantry is cannonfodder but it makes it easier for your knights to crush the enemy from the back.
    Last edited by lolIsuck; April 25, 2012 at 12:14 PM. Reason: I am retarded

  12. #12
    Macunaíma's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: I just lost wtf? (long post)

    Dude, you will never win the hordes playing on Autoresolve. The AI is just too dumb, you would have to send lots of stacks into each of theirs to win. You need to somehow play the battles against the Timurids yourself. I think you could have succeeded against them in defensive sieges if you played the battles on the map.


  13. #13
    Alexanderos's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: I just lost wtf? (long post)

    Indeed , knights are powerful , but even if i take out their crossbowmen both milan and hre have tough , resiliant spearmen Armoured sergeants and spear militias are not good for your cavalry., especially for mailed knights. Feudal Knights may hold them , but not for long. As for infantry , i agree in early periods france sucks until you get dismounted feudals. In the late game , you get voulgiers which are awesome.

    Edit: Missile cavalry is countered by infantry ? Jinetes just rund around on skirmish like wandering idiots and pepper anything with javelins. Infantry have no chance of caching them.

  14. #14
    lolIsuck's Avatar WE HAVE NO CAKE!
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    Default Re: I just lost wtf? (long post)

    Quote Originally Posted by Alexanderos View Post
    Indeed , knights are powerful , but even if i take out their crossbowmen both milan and hre have tough , resiliant spearmen Armoured sergeants and spear militias are not good for your cavalry., especially for mailed knights. Feudal Knights may hold them , but not for long. As for infantry , i agree in early periods france sucks until you get dismounted feudals. In the late game , you get voulgiers which are awesome.
    Your infantry will hold theirs for at least a few seconds, then you move your cavalry around and crush them from the back. I often just charge them from the front though, enough casualties for them normally.
    Dismounted nobles are by far the most awesome btw.

    Edit: Missile cavalry is countered by infantry ? Jinetes just rund around on skirmish like wandering idiots and pepper anything with javelins. Infantry have no chance of caching them.
    Yea, my bad. I meant archers actually.

  15. #15
    lolIsuck's Avatar WE HAVE NO CAKE!
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    Default Re: I just lost wtf? (long post)

    The everything paragraph wasn't serious but of course he should take region for region.

  16. #16

    Default Re: I just lost wtf? (long post)

    One thing that doesnt seem to have been covered is that you generally dont want to be turning cities, especially coastal ones, into castles. The map already has too many castles by default for my liking. I'll grant that the town troops for England are mostly terrible until the later period of the game, but castles generally generate low income, and you need a decent cashflow to build up armies.

  17. #17

    Default Re: I just lost wtf? (long post)

    1. Do not try to hold on to the Holy Land unless it's late in game, you have secured your position on the home front and can create the best troops.


    I do not completly agree with this, for me it's easier to get to the Holy lands (if I intend to stay there) and upgrade the cities or castle under my reign as much as possible and get them ready for the Hordes. I may or may not do this depending on the faction I'm playing.

    Usually I try to have atleast the 3 coastal cities and one castle, I capture the rest but I give them to the Pope, he plays as a buffer and and ally while fighting the Hordes as I try to support him as much as I can, he falls, it will make it harder for me.
    TIME TO DIE!!!! Proud Son of Viking Prince

  18. #18
    lolIsuck's Avatar WE HAVE NO CAKE!
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    Default Re: I just lost wtf? (long post)

    Well, it depends. I would advice him not to do it, you're an experienced player and I sometimes go on crusade too early on when I can miss the men and my finances are good (unless I'm England or Denmark, not worth traveling all the way)

  19. #19

    Default Re: I just lost wtf? (long post)

    If you are trying to run a campaign as England where you are defensive in Europe and colonize the Middle East, I think a good strategy would be to give the Papal States one or two of the regions in the Middle East in exchange for an alliance. This will make the European factions think twice about attacking you for fear of being excommunicated (on third thought, they will attack you anyway, though), and it will give you an ally that serves as a buffer between you and the Mongolians.

  20. #20
    lolIsuck's Avatar WE HAVE NO CAKE!
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    Default Re: I just lost wtf? (long post)

    The AI doesn't really care about excommunication, they'll even attack the pope.

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