Warhammer Lore general disscussion thread!

[IrishBlood]

Many mods have threads similar to this, e.g, Third Age, Westeros, etc, so i figured I might as well start one here.

Rather then being just a questions and answers thread (we've had a few of them) this is a place to discuss various aspects of warhammer lore that their interested in, or would like to know more about.

I'd like to start with the topic of 'Does the Empire deserve to survive?'

The empire is extremly corrupt and devastates itsself in civil wars, either fighting for the imperial throne or regional conflicts between counts and rival claimants.

Its ruled by greed and its weak minded inhabitants are constantly falling prey to the corrupting influence of chaos, why do they deserve to survive?

[Stuv_lordi]

Honestly I think that depends on who you are comparing the Empire to. Because lets face it, compared to the legions of chaos who want little more than to rape pillage and burn The Empire seems saintly. But then i suppose the real reason for the fact that there are so many counts vying for dominance is thanks to the fact that the Empire is so close to the chaos wastes and Norsca; they need to be heavily milliterised in order to survive the regular chaos invasions. the nasty side effect of this is that they end up with lots of powerful counts who want more power and so ironicly are more subseptable to chaos.

so really it's immorality is a necicarry evil for it's survival agianst all the forces of disorder.

[The Holy Pilgrim]

I guess it's kind of how the many Germanic nations in the Post-Renaissance > Pr-Industrial era survived as many separate nations despite being next to very powerful neighbors such as France and Austria. They have had their fair share of infighting (30 Year's War anybody?) and their infrastructure wasn't what you'd call "stable."

[The Bold Burgundian]

Of course the Empire deserves to survive, sure its in a bad state right now but that doesn't deem it unworthy of survival. Who else would stave off the hordes of chaos? Elves, too few. Dwarfs, already dealing with the skaven and the (most foul) greenskins. Lizardmen, they're too busy praying for the Old Ones to return, and are an ocean apart.

[Fallen Angel Ezekiel]

Of course they do, wouldn't be any fun then.

[Ichon]

Without the Empire Chaos would advance which would be more corrupt than the Empire by far. Without the unifying force of Sigmar the Empire could splinter but would be a bit more succeptible to Chaos. I think it would be interesting to allow some of the Empire cultures to split off sort of like Reformation broke HRE. Old Empire and new Empire. Chaos might try to take advantage but if the new Empire was more focused on fighting Chaos the old would face problem of indolence like Elves did. Would be interesting to see a human culture other than Norsca.form which is Chaos aspected maybe in Averland.

[GreatSword]

Many mods have threads similar to this, e.g, Third Age, Westeros, etc, so i figured I might as well start one here.

Rather then being just a questions and answers thread (we've had a few of them) this is a place to discuss various aspects of warhammer lore that their interested in, or would like to know more about.

I'd like to start with the topic of 'Does the Empire deserve to survive?'

The empire is extremly corrupt and devastates itsself in civil wars, either fighting for the imperial throne or regional conflicts between counts and rival claimants.

Its ruled by greed and its weak minded inhabitants are constantly falling prey to the corrupting influence of chaos, why do they deserve to survive?

I'm not sure if the Bretonii have the same issues with Chaos, but the Empire is definatley the closest major power of the old world. Of course Chaos will be stronger here, because of the proximity. The Dark Elves are closer, but they worship Slannesh, the Norse also sometimes worship the Chaos gods. The Empire at least is fighting against it, even if it has to fight itself sometimes. Also remember the Elector Counts are rivals as well as allies, and they will fight each other occasionally. Only in times of great need do they come together for the common good. In truth, the Dwarfs, Wood Elves, Tileans, Border Princes, Estalians, and Bretonii can send a big thanks to the Empire and Kislev for holding back the tide.

[LittleDwarf]

(...) In truth, the Dwarfs, (...) can send a big thanks to the Empire and Kislev for holding back the tide.

As for Kislev - you're right and the Dwarfs respect Kislevites, for they are fighting what is basicly an everyday war, just as the Dwarfs themselves do.


But as for the Empire...
Hah. Thanks, man, you made my day. Seriously, this "major power in the world" would not even come into being without the Dwarven support, and if it did, it would crumble a thousand times until now.

It were Dwarfs who frist taught humans of metalsmithing, engineering, masonry, well... basicly everything. They also gifted them a lot of things, the Ghal Maraz and the Emperor's very crown being probably the most important, not only as actual items but also as symbols which brought the tribes apart. Runic Fangs were also of dwarf design and craft.


Dwarfs protected Empires' borders for centuries, against greenskins, skaven and chaos hordes alike, as well as vampires. If it wasn't for their martial prowess and their allegiance to the Empire, it would probably be conquered during the Age of Three Emprerors, when silly manlins basicly killed each other even in the midst of battle with another foe - ex. the murder of Countess of Talabekland prior to the battle of Hunger Wood.

They also assisted them in all major conflicts and wars, despite having their own, quite more serious problems (such as becoming extinct)

"Faith, Steel and Gunpowder - these are the three things that make the Empire great." - those were the words of Magnus the Pious. Two of these things in Empire come from Dwarfs. Let that be a commentary.

[GreatSword]

As for Kislev - you're right and the Dwarfs respect Kislevites, for they are fighting what is basicly an everyday war, just as the Dwarfs themselves do.


But as for the Empire...
Hah. Thanks, man, you made my day. Seriously, this "major power in the world" would not even come into being without the Dwarven support, and if it did, it would crumble a thousand times until now.

It were Dwarfs who frist taught humans of metalsmithing, engineering, masonry, well... basicly everything. They also gifted them a lot of things, the Ghal Maraz and the Emperor's very crown being probably the most important, not only as actual items but also as symbols which brought the tribes apart. Runic Fangs were also of dwarf design and craft.


Dwarfs protected Empires' borders for centuries, against greenskins, skaven and chaos hordes alike, as well as vampires. If it wasn't for their martial prowess and their allegiance to the Empire, it would probably be conquered during the Age of Three Emprerors, when silly manlins basicly killed each other even in the midst of battle with another foe - ex. the murder of Countess of Talabekland prior to the battle of Hunger Wood.

They also assisted them in all major conflicts and wars, despite having their own, quite more serious problems (such as becoming extinct)

"Faith, Steel and Gunpowder - these are the three things that make the Empire great." - those were the words of Magnus the Pious. Two of these things in Empire come from Dwarfs. Let that be a commentary.

This is all true, but the Dwarves are much reduced in the current time period, they now need the Empire as much as the Empire needs them!

[IrishBlood]

As for Kislev - you're right and the Dwarfs respect Kislevites, for they are fighting what is basicly an everyday war, just as the Dwarfs themselves do.


But as for the Empire...
Hah. Thanks, man, you made my day. Seriously, this "major power in the world" would not even come into being without the Dwarven support, and if it did, it would crumble a thousand times until now.

It were Dwarfs who frist taught humans of metalsmithing, engineering, masonry, well... basicly everything. They also gifted them a lot of things, the Ghal Maraz and the Emperor's very crown being probably the most important, not only as actual items but also as symbols which brought the tribes apart. Runic Fangs were also of dwarf design and craft.


Dwarfs protected Empires' borders for centuries, against greenskins, skaven and chaos hordes alike, as well as vampires. If it wasn't for their martial prowess and their allegiance to the Empire, it would probably be conquered during the Age of Three Emprerors, when silly manlins basicly killed each other even in the midst of battle with another foe - ex. the murder of Countess of Talabekland prior to the battle of Hunger Wood.

They also assisted them in all major conflicts and wars, despite having their own, quite more serious problems (such as becoming extinct)

"Faith, Steel and Gunpowder - these are the three things that make the Empire great." - those were the words of Magnus the Pious. Two of these things in Empire come from Dwarfs. Let that be a commentary.

Just curious, but have the dwarf built any repeating rifles? It's just that i've seen pictures of dwarfs using guns that look more advanced then the average musket

[IrishBlood]

Personally I love the empire, I just thought that would be a good topic to get things started What are the chances of the empire surviving though?

[Maltacus]

The empire does have some redeeming features that I think deserve a happy continuiation (not ending because that will mean no more wargaming ) but a great deal of it's leaders would seem to get what's coming to them if they got a random spear in their back some day. Whether or not such a develpment would be useful with regard to defence against chaos forces and such is another question.

In CoW some Sylvanians get the "Curbed Bloody Zeal" or whatever it is called, trying to be a kind vampire showing concern for their living friends even if it means sacrificing a great deal of potential power. Quite chivalrous of them. Are there any vampires or other undead in Warhammer lore that are like that?

[IrishBlood]

The empire does have some redeeming features that I think deserve a happy continuiation (not ending because that will mean no more wargaming ) but a great deal of it's leaders would seem to get what's coming to them if they got a random spear in their back some day. Whether or not such a develpment would be useful with regard to defence against chaos forces and such is another question.

In CoW some Sylvanians get the "Curbed Bloody Zeal" or whatever it is called, trying to be a kind vampire showing concern for their living friends even if it means sacrificing a great deal of potential power. Quite chivalrous of them. Are there any vampires or other undead in Warhammer lore that are like that?

Well Vlad Von Carstein looked after his human peasents the way a farmer looks after his livestock. He made sure they were happy and healthy and well fed, but at the end of the day he still looked sown on them as animals. The people of Slyvenia have very low taxs (undead armys dont require much payment ), they are well treated, at least compared to peasents in other imperial states, and dont suffer from the corruption of imperial bureacracy.

True the vampires require some of them to feed upon, but the number would be pretty small, I read some where that many slyvenians have taken to worshiping the vampires as gods and so consider it an honour to have their son or daughter taken for vampire food

Also, generally speaking, the peasents of sylvania wouldnt be levyed into fighting battles for their Vampire rulers, seeing as the Vamps have no shortage of undead recruits!

But, that said, such rule depends on the humour of the ruling vampire count, the successers of Vlad Von Carstein were extremly brutal, and while Vlad looked on his peasents as prize lifestock, others looked upon them the same way a cruel hunter would look at a herd of deer!

I think the current Vampire ruler, Manfred Von Carstein is kinda mid way between the two, he wouldnt care for his subjects as much as Vlad did, but neither does he see any point in being cruel to them.

[Shadowlair]

the dwarves dont use repeating rifles in their main regiments, maybe some secular engineer, but the dwarven rifles look better because their a work of love, while the empire guns are more mass produced to keep the hordes of riflemen supplied. and so the dwarven guns look better because they are, they are a work of love and advanced technology that is way more reliable than empire ones.

[Iguanaonastick]

Dwarfs have a deep-seated distrust for innovation that wars with their talent for manufacturing machines.

When a Dwarf comes up with something new, the idea is: "Let's test it for a few hundred years, maybe if it proves itself in the laboratory then we can start using small amounts of these new things in battle. After all, we don't -need- anything new. What was good enough for our ancestors is good enough for us." When an Empire engineer comes up with something, the reasoning is more like: "Did it explode? No? Good. Do you think it will explode next time? You're pretty sure it won't? Well, that's acceptable. Do you... damnit, we're being invaded again. Go use that machine of yours to kill something."

(And then of course you have the Skaven, who will use the machine even if the answer is: "Yes, it probably -will- explode next time, or otherwise the time after that." "Good good. Give it to a slave, shoot shoot!")

All that said, the Dwarfs do spend centuries perfecting existing designs, so Dwarf handguns are much superior weapons to Empire handguns. So are Empire Cannons, lore-wise anyway. In the rules they are if you give them runes.

[IrishBlood]

Dwarfs have a deep-seated distrust for innovation that wars with their talent for manufacturing machines.

When a Dwarf comes up with something new, the idea is: "Let's test it for a few hundred years, maybe if it proves itself in the laboratory then we can start using small amounts of these new things in battle. After all, we don't -need- anything new. What was good enough for our ancestors is good enough for us." When an Empire engineer comes up with something, the reasoning is more like: "Did it explode? No? Good. Do you think it will explode next time? You're pretty sure it won't? Well, that's acceptable. Do you... damnit, we're being invaded again. Go use that machine of yours to kill something."

(And then of course you have the Skaven, who will use the machine even if the answer is: "Yes, it probably -will- explode next time, or otherwise the time after that." "Good good. Give it to a slave, shoot shoot!")

All that said, the Dwarfs do spend centuries perfecting existing designs, so Dwarf handguns are much superior weapons to Empire handguns. So are Empire Cannons, lore-wise anyway. In the rules they are if you give them runes.

aaaahhh i see, that makes sense, I was always a bit surprised by their lack of innovation, despite the fact that their mechanical genius's

[Maltacus]

Is there anywhere you can read something about how the different warhammer units and armies fight? I mean from a lore perspective rather than tabletop gaming rules?

Something I would like to read more about is how the dwarfs battle. Judging by their units (both here and in tabletop gameing), they are an extremely offensive infantry but the defending state of their realm and their characteristics (often outnumbered, conservative, methodical, stubborn and mostly stable) would suggest they should have some very defensive elements too.

[Skarzug]

Is there anywhere you can read something about how the different warhammer units and armies fight? I mean from a lore perspective rather than tabletop gaming rules?

Something I would like to read more about is how the dwarfs battle. Judging by their units (both here and in tabletop gaming), they are an extremely offensive infantry but the defending state of their realm and their characteristics (often outnumbered, conservative, methodical, stubborn and mostly stable) would suggest they should have some very defensive elements too.

Warhammer Wiki is fairly good, but the Black Library (Games Workshops lore writers) are where its at get some of their book sets and you not only have very decent books to read but a stupid amount of lore knowledge My favorites are the Nagash and Neferata series; It deals with the beginning of man and the creation of necromancy and the fall of Khemri ect. and Of course the Sigmar books are brilliant telling us how the Empire was created.

And the Empire will be able to live on regardless of what gets thrown at them because they are human, the one good thing about humans is how easily we adapt to every situation and live on as a race when nobody thought it could be possible, Yes they are saved by the Dwarves and Elves and without the help they would be very uncivilised and no better than the Norsii themselves.

In the dwarf language the word for human is also the word for "Poorly Made" i think thats an apt name, and the name for elves is "Elgi" which also means "treacherous" "Coward".

[IrishBlood]

Is there anywhere you can read something about how the different warhammer units and armies fight? I mean from a lore perspective rather than tabletop gaming rules?

Something I would like to read more about is how the dwarfs battle. Judging by their units (both here and in tabletop gameing), they are an extremely offensive infantry but the defending state of their realm and their characteristics (often outnumbered, conservative, methodical, stubborn and mostly stable) would suggest they should have some very defensive elements too.

The Gotrek and Felix Novels are also very good for showing the tactics of the various factions, particularly the dwarfs, green skins, beastmen and skavan. There are plenty of other novels that deal with empire tactics, such as the sword of justice/sword of Vengance books being some of the best.

[Disturbance]

Maybe the Empire could do with Karl doing a bit of a unification wars much like the Emperor in 40k. Germany became a much greater power after Wilhelm unified the states and with a bit of papal style inquisition rooting out the heretics i believe corruption could be stopped and the fuel feeding Chaos be reduced. But lore wise that would be boring.