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  1. #1
    Treize's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Dutch government falls after budget talks

    The Dutch governing coalition collapsed on Saturday when far-right politician Geert Wilders pulled out of budget cut talks, saying it was not in the Netherlands’ interest to meet the deficit limit of three per cent imposed by the new European fiscal pact.
    EU-imposed austerity measures have cost leaders in southern European countries, including Greece, Italy and Spain, their jobs. With the fall of the conservative Dutch government, and the possibility that Nicolas Sarkozy may lose the French presidential election that begins on Sunday, the damage seems to have spread to Europe’s prosperous north.

    Highlighting widespread voter anger over EU-imposed budget cuts, Mr Wilders said he could not allow Dutch citizens to “pay out of their pockets for the senseless demands of Brussels”.
    “We don’t want to follow Brussels’ orders. We don’t want to make our retirees bleed for Brussels’ diktats,” Mr Wilders said.
    The loss of Mr Wilders’ support left the conservative government of Mark Rutte, prime minister, with just over a third of the seats in parliament.
    Mr Rutte and other party leaders said that made new elections inevitable. He is expected to offer his cabinet’s resignation to the Dutch Queen on Monday, but leave the cabinet in place as a caretaker government until elections are held, probably in September.

    The fall of Mr Rutte’s government is ironic because the Dutch were among the most vociferous supporters of strict budget limits during negotiations over Europe-wide fiscal reforms at Brussels summits last year.
    After the slowing Dutch economy led the Netherlands’ own 2013 deficit estimates to jump to 4.6 per cent, Mr Rutte was forced in early March to launch negotiations with his coalition partners – the Christian Democrats and Mr Wilders’ Party for Freedom – over new cuts.

    While awaiting elections, the conservative caretaker government will be forced to seek agreement on a budget with leftwing opposition parties. The leaders of the opposition Labor and left-liberal D66 parties said they might back some cuts with a view to long-term deficit reductions below 3 per cent. But they said they were not interested in ensuring that the deficit met the 3 per cent limit in 2013.
    D66 leader Alexander Pechtold said the government would need to go “hat in hand” to Brussels to see whether a smaller package of cuts would be acceptable.
    But a person with knowledge of the government negotiations said the Liberals and Christian Democrats were both determined to reach the 3 per cent goal, and that it might be possible to create shifting coalitions to pass different measures to reach that goal.

    The fall of the government has unpredictable ramifications for the future of Mr Wilders. On Saturday, Mr Rutte and Christian Democrat leader Maxime Verhagen rushed to paint him as irresponsible for having triggered the collapse of talks.

    Mr Rutte said the negotiators were “completely done”. He said an agreement on budget cuts had already been reached when Mr Wilders abruptly said Saturday he was no longer willing to approve them.
    Exiting the government at this stage will allow Mr Wilders to disclaim any responsibility for unpopular budget cuts. But the biggest winner in elections could be the far-left eurosceptic Socialist party, which has seen its support rise to as much as 20 per cent of the electorate over the past year.

    Meanwhile, Dutch analysts said the inability of even the prosperous, deficit-averse Netherlands to generate voter support for Europe-directed budget cuts called the sustainability of the EU fiscal pact into question.
    “Enforcing [the pact] would always be difficult. Punishing countries is a naive concept,” said Arnoud Boot, a professor of finance at the University of Amsterdam.
    Mr Boot said fiscal harmonisation would be possible once the European economy returns to normal growth, but that trying to execute it in times of crisis causes “undue pain, which would lead to too much opposition to EU enforcement”.
    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/889f4108-8...#axzz1srRxo84A

    Aha well that was unexpected... Seems like new elections are upcoming. Let the Choas begin!


    Anyway, I already told myself not to vote. Maybe I should reconsider?
    Miss me yet?

  2. #2
    The Dude's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Dutch government falls after budget talks

    Yeah I'm gonna pass on voting this time aswell. Snore. Just about done with this nonsense. We've had an election every two years for the last ten. Five successive governments that failed to sit a full term. I cba anymore.

  3. #3
    Treize's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Dutch government falls after budget talks

    Voting has no use, the cronies of VVD/CDA/PvdA will grab the power again no matter what we do. Add to that the fact that there are no decent parties to choose from and we got ourselves quite a big democratic deficit.
    Miss me yet?

  4. #4

    Default Re: Dutch government falls after budget talks

    Quote Originally Posted by Treize View Post
    Voting has no use, the cronies of VVD/CDA/PvdA will grab the power again no matter what we do. Add to that the fact that there are no decent parties to choose from and we got ourselves quite a big democratic deficit.
    Don't you use some kind of Proportional Representation system in the Netherlands? You should try coming to the UK to see how useless voting is in a first past the post system.


  5. #5

    Default Re: Dutch government falls after budget talks

    Quote Originally Posted by General Brittanicus View Post
    Don't you use some kind of Proportional Representation system in the Netherlands? You should try coming to the UK to see how useless voting is in a first past the post system.
    Absolutely. No matter what, Labour will win the North, the Tories the South, and the rest is battling over scraps. At least you guys can make some kind of difference.
    Quote Originally Posted by Denny Crane! View Post
    How about we define the rights that allow a government to say that isn't within my freedom.

  6. #6
    Treize's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Dutch government falls after budget talks

    The three old parties will pass the power between them anyway. They use a bunch of other parties to rank and file the coalition and they will just continue the same old . Noboby dares to make any form of 'radical' choices, slash the extreme bureaucracy or do something in our own interest anymore.
    And all the smaller parties are equally worthless, in the end they all have despicable ideologies anyway.
    Miss me yet?

  7. #7
    Treize's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Dutch government falls after budget talks

    I'd rather have 3 flavours to choose from than none. Coalitions always mean more of the same.
    Miss me yet?

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    Default Re: Dutch government falls after budget talks

    Quote Originally Posted by Treize View Post
    I'd rather have 3 flavours to choose from than none. Coalitions always mean more of the same.
    Well I'm expecting a Labour government with christian and/or center-left padding. Then that will collapse. Then we'll get another right-wingish government. Which will collapse. And we get something left-wingish again.

    It's just impossible to take it seriously anymore.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Dutch government falls after budget talks

    Interesting. It would seem that as economies get ground down by austerity, the politicians start to wonder if their jobs could be in danger.

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  10. #10
    Muizer's Avatar member 3519
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    Default Re: Dutch government falls after budget talks

    Rutte made a complete mess of things. In times of crisis, he organises minority government that even with the at times reluctant endorsement of the populist PVV and the religious loons of the SGP barely have a majority. Does this for the sole purpose of ensuring the bill for the crisis does not get paid by his particular constituency, who by and large were the once to profit most from the financial bubble. It's pretty disgusting, that after this exercise, VVD and CDA will probably still be claiming the political right's typical role of custodians of budgetary discipline. I'm hardly left-wing myself, but it's quite obvious that during the last formation, Rutte was the one who abandoned the only sensible course of action: a government of the political center. And now, one and a half year later, with nothing to show for it, we're going to vote once again. Wilders is an idiot with his xenophobic ideas, but anyone who lays the blame for the political crisis at his doorstep is wrong. It was Rutte who more or less single-handedly messed things up. Worst PM ever. Good riddance (I hope, for good).
    "Lay these words to heart, Lucilius, that you may scorn the pleasure which comes from the applause of the majority. Many men praise you; but have you any reason for being pleased with yourself, if you are a person whom the many can understand?" - Lucius Annaeus Seneca -

  11. #11

    Default Re: Dutch government falls after budget talks

    Awww, let's see if the Dutch members who generally hate Wilders and the EU will thank him...

  12. #12

    Default Re: Dutch government falls after budget talks

    Quote Originally Posted by Basil II the B.S View Post
    Awww, let's see if the Dutch members who generally hate Wilders and the EU will thank him...
    Not really considering that he's the main reason why this entire circus of a government came to be in the first place, and the one that caused it to end. The last year has basically been Wilders ing about with the government, which has ended in a large loss of support for his party and of the Right in general. Whilst I didn't like the coalition, at least they got done, despite Wilders' best attempts at frustrating that. Now all that hard work is going to be entirely reversed again by a most likely Left wing government in the future or, worse, an even bigger and more pointless coalition.

    The only Wilders has proven is that he's worthy of even more contempt than he already was, along with Dutch politics reaching a new low.

    As the others in the thread, I think it's likely that Roemer and the SP are going to be the main party in the future. Wether they're just as full of as the rest of the parties remains to be seen, but I remain skeptical. Honestly, I'd rather the Queen just appoint a Prime Minister and cabinet who know what the they're doing, like what happened in Italy with Mario Monti.
    Quote Originally Posted by A.J.P. Taylor
    Peaceful agreement and government by consent are possible only on the basis of ideas common to all parties; and these ideas must spring from habit and from history. Once reason is introduced, every man, every class, every nation becomes a law unto itself; and the only right which reason understands is the right of the stronger. Reason formulates universal principles and is therefore intolerant: there can be only one rational society, one rational nation, ultimately one rational man. Decisions between rival reasons can be made only by force.





    Quote Originally Posted by H.L Spieghel
    Is het niet hogelijk te verwonderen, en een recht beklaaglijke zaak, Heren, dat alhoewel onze algemene Dietse taal een onvermengde, sierlijke en verstandelijke spraak is, die zich ook zo wijd als enige talen des werelds verspreidt, en die in haar bevang veel rijken, vorstendommen en landen bevat, welke dagelijks zeer veel kloeke en hooggeleerde verstanden uitleveren, dat ze nochtans zo zwakkelijk opgeholpen en zo weinig met geleerdheid verrijkt en versiert wordt, tot een jammerlijk hinder en nadeel des volks?
    Quote Originally Posted by Miel Cools
    Als ik oud ben wil ik zingen,
    Oud ben maar nog niet verrot.
    Zoals oude bomen zingen,
    Voor Jan Lul of voor hun god.
    Ook een oude boom wil reizen,
    Bij een bries of bij een storm.
    Zelfs al zit zijn kruin vol luizen,
    Zelfs al zit zijn voet vol worm.
    Als ik oud ben wil ik zingen.

    Cò am Fear am measg ant-sluaigh,
    A mhaireas buan gu bràth?
    Chan eil sinn uileadh ach air chuart,
    Mar dhìthein buaile fàs,
    Bheir siantannan na bliadhna sìos,
    'S nach tog a' ghrian an àird.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jörg Friedrich
    When do I stop being a justified warrior? When I've killed a million bad civilians? When I've killed three million bad civilians? According to a warsimulation by the Pentagon in 1953 the entire area of Russia would've been reduced to ruins with 60 million casualties. All bad Russians. 60 million bad guys. By how many million ''bad'' casualties do I stop being a knight of justice? Isn't that the question those knights must ask themselves? If there's no-one left, and I remain as the only just one,

    Then I'm God.
    Quote Originally Posted by Louis Napoleon III, Des Idees Napoleoniennes
    Governments have been established to aid society to overcome the obstacles which impede its march. Their forms have been varied according to the problems they have been called to cure, and according to character of the people they have ruled over. Their task never has been, and never will be easy, because the two contrary elements, of which our existence and the nature of society is composed, demand the employment of different means. In view of our divine essence, we need only liberty and work; in view of our mortal nature, we need for our direction a guide and a support. A government is not then, as a distinguished economist has said, a necessary ulcer; it is rather the beneficent motive power of all social organisation.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfgang Held
    I walked into those baracks [of Buchenwald concentrationcamp], in which there were people on the three-layered bunkbeds. But only their eyes were alive. Emaciated, skinny figures, nothing more but skin and bones. One thinks that they are dead, because they did not move. Only the eyes. I started to cry. And then one of the prisoners came, stood by me for a while, put a hand on my shoulder and said to me, something that I will never forget: ''Tränen sind denn nicht genug, mein Junge,
    Tränen sind denn nicht genug.''

    Jajem ssoref is m'n korew
    E goochem mit e wenk, e nar mit e shtomp
    Wer niks is, hot kawsones

  13. #13
    Muizer's Avatar member 3519
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    Default Re: Dutch government falls after budget talks

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Croccer View Post
    Whilst I didn't like the coalition, at least they got done
    Hardly.
    "Lay these words to heart, Lucilius, that you may scorn the pleasure which comes from the applause of the majority. Many men praise you; but have you any reason for being pleased with yourself, if you are a person whom the many can understand?" - Lucius Annaeus Seneca -

  14. #14

    Default Re: Dutch government falls after budget talks

    Quote Originally Posted by Muizer View Post
    Hardly.
    The VVD and CDA came up with a plan for austerity measures quite quickly and pushed them through quite fast. Had the PVV not intervened, most of their plans would've probably succeeded. Not that I like them, but at least they had a clear plan and were willing and largely able to execute it.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Illusionist
    Wilders is the definition of populist. He'll say anything and blame anyone so long as he can continue his quest for power. His lack of real action in government proves this. He probably thinks he'll come out of this more popular.
    He's getting desperate. Dwindling polls as a result of his inaction caused him to start that entire Meldpunt Polen debacle, and now this backing out of an agreement he already signed. It's painfully obvious that he's trying to grasp at as many populist straws as possible, in order to get some form of support, regardless of the consequences for the country.
    Last edited by Dr. Croccer; April 24, 2012 at 02:50 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by A.J.P. Taylor
    Peaceful agreement and government by consent are possible only on the basis of ideas common to all parties; and these ideas must spring from habit and from history. Once reason is introduced, every man, every class, every nation becomes a law unto itself; and the only right which reason understands is the right of the stronger. Reason formulates universal principles and is therefore intolerant: there can be only one rational society, one rational nation, ultimately one rational man. Decisions between rival reasons can be made only by force.





    Quote Originally Posted by H.L Spieghel
    Is het niet hogelijk te verwonderen, en een recht beklaaglijke zaak, Heren, dat alhoewel onze algemene Dietse taal een onvermengde, sierlijke en verstandelijke spraak is, die zich ook zo wijd als enige talen des werelds verspreidt, en die in haar bevang veel rijken, vorstendommen en landen bevat, welke dagelijks zeer veel kloeke en hooggeleerde verstanden uitleveren, dat ze nochtans zo zwakkelijk opgeholpen en zo weinig met geleerdheid verrijkt en versiert wordt, tot een jammerlijk hinder en nadeel des volks?
    Quote Originally Posted by Miel Cools
    Als ik oud ben wil ik zingen,
    Oud ben maar nog niet verrot.
    Zoals oude bomen zingen,
    Voor Jan Lul of voor hun god.
    Ook een oude boom wil reizen,
    Bij een bries of bij een storm.
    Zelfs al zit zijn kruin vol luizen,
    Zelfs al zit zijn voet vol worm.
    Als ik oud ben wil ik zingen.

    Cò am Fear am measg ant-sluaigh,
    A mhaireas buan gu bràth?
    Chan eil sinn uileadh ach air chuart,
    Mar dhìthein buaile fàs,
    Bheir siantannan na bliadhna sìos,
    'S nach tog a' ghrian an àird.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jörg Friedrich
    When do I stop being a justified warrior? When I've killed a million bad civilians? When I've killed three million bad civilians? According to a warsimulation by the Pentagon in 1953 the entire area of Russia would've been reduced to ruins with 60 million casualties. All bad Russians. 60 million bad guys. By how many million ''bad'' casualties do I stop being a knight of justice? Isn't that the question those knights must ask themselves? If there's no-one left, and I remain as the only just one,

    Then I'm God.
    Quote Originally Posted by Louis Napoleon III, Des Idees Napoleoniennes
    Governments have been established to aid society to overcome the obstacles which impede its march. Their forms have been varied according to the problems they have been called to cure, and according to character of the people they have ruled over. Their task never has been, and never will be easy, because the two contrary elements, of which our existence and the nature of society is composed, demand the employment of different means. In view of our divine essence, we need only liberty and work; in view of our mortal nature, we need for our direction a guide and a support. A government is not then, as a distinguished economist has said, a necessary ulcer; it is rather the beneficent motive power of all social organisation.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfgang Held
    I walked into those baracks [of Buchenwald concentrationcamp], in which there were people on the three-layered bunkbeds. But only their eyes were alive. Emaciated, skinny figures, nothing more but skin and bones. One thinks that they are dead, because they did not move. Only the eyes. I started to cry. And then one of the prisoners came, stood by me for a while, put a hand on my shoulder and said to me, something that I will never forget: ''Tränen sind denn nicht genug, mein Junge,
    Tränen sind denn nicht genug.''

    Jajem ssoref is m'n korew
    E goochem mit e wenk, e nar mit e shtomp
    Wer niks is, hot kawsones

  15. #15
    Muizer's Avatar member 3519
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    Default Re: Dutch government falls after budget talks

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Croccer View Post
    The VVD and CDA came up with a plan for austerity measures quite quickly and pushed them through quite fast. Had the PVV not intervened, most of their plans would've probably succeeded. Not that I like them, but at least they had a clear plan and were willing and largely able to execute it.
    My problem is they came with those "austerity" measures first. Only in the second round did they "bite the bullet" on the real long term structural issues. And then Wilders quit. I'm afraid
    "Lay these words to heart, Lucilius, that you may scorn the pleasure which comes from the applause of the majority. Many men praise you; but have you any reason for being pleased with yourself, if you are a person whom the many can understand?" - Lucius Annaeus Seneca -

  16. #16
    Grouchio's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: Dutch government falls after budget talks

    I know! Just give power back to the crown! They'll know what to do!


  17. #17
    Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Dutch government falls after budget talks

    I predict a leftist coalition with Roemer as prime minister. People had it with the nonsense. I really see how the Dutch are being squeezed relentleslly paying top $ for every little thing, from privatized healthcare, to privatized daycare, to privatized parking your car, to privatized blood transfusions etc etc. It really feels like your being robbed blind, because you still pay allot in taxes...

    nvm all those fony temp-work and ZZP jobs. Just a disgrace and if its up to them they take it further....I know many hardworking folks who cant make it no longer and it gets worse after every little of such policies.
    Quote Originally Posted by snuggans View Post
    we can safely say that a % of those 130 were Houthi/Iranian militants that needed to be stopped unfortunately

  18. #18
    lolIsuck's Avatar WE HAVE NO CAKE!
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    Default Re: Dutch government falls after budget talks

    Quote Originally Posted by Thorn777 View Post
    I predict a leftist coalition with Roemer as prime minister. People had it with the nonsense. I really see how the Dutch are being squeezed relentleslly paying top $ for every little thing, from privatized healthcare, to privatized daycare, to privatized parking your car, to privatized blood transfusions etc etc. It really feels like your being robbed blind, because you still pay allot in taxes...

    nvm all those fony temp-work and ZZP jobs. Just a disgrace and if its up to them they take it further....I know many hardworking folks who cant make it no longer and it gets worse after every little of such policies.
    SP doesn't rule, they're an anti-party, just like PVV. Roemer would make an epic prime minister though.
    I think democracy is a total bull and politicians don't do anything good. They act to be chosen again, not to rule the country which never leads to good government. Aristocracy is the best government but it sucks that that normally ends in oligarchy instead of aristocracy.

    I will still vote SP though because Roemer is awesome and voting is pointless anyways as we're not getting out of this, there's no possible combination to be made that can hold for 4 years.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Dutch government falls after budget talks

    I will vote for the SP merely because I want more money for my education since thats the only thing I care about. Deal with it.

    "Just searching for a world with some soul..."

  20. #20

    Default Re: Dutch government falls after budget talks

    Quote Originally Posted by lolIsuck View Post
    SP doesn't rule, they're an anti-party, just like PVV. Roemer would make an epic prime minister though.
    I think democracy is a total bull and politicians don't do anything good. They act to be chosen again, not to rule the country which never leads to good government. Aristocracy is the best government but it sucks that that normally ends in oligarchy instead of aristocracy.

    I will still vote SP though because Roemer is awesome and voting is pointless anyways as we're not getting out of this, there's no possible combination to be made that can hold for 4 years.
    This. The SP, PVV wont come with solutions they just come with more complains. We can just hope for an liberal goverment with left-wing Liberal parties like GL en D66.


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