Crusader States - live long and prosper?

**Londonade** · April 20, 2012, 08:45 AM

I just wondered if anyone has had a game where the early era Crusader States when controlled by the AI even manage to survive, let alone flourish? In all my games they have never lasted past about 1140. Having played them myself, the secret to survival seems to be to expand fast and to make judicious use of Crusades, but the AI never seems to be able to do this. The AI controlled CS usually manages to take Kerak early on but then don't get any further - I've never seen them take Acre, Tortosa or Adana, and only witnessed them taking Aleppo once. In one game they actually did take Cairo in a Crusade but that proved to be a false dawn and they still ended up being wiped out in the mid 12th Century.

In my latest game I've decided to see if I can help them survive. In real life Roger 1st of Sicily was the uncle of Bohmond of Antioch, the Crusader. In the new game the Sicilians therefore have sent an army to the Holy Land to try bolster the CS. After taking Bari around 1105, the Pope is persuaded to to call a Crusade against the independent town of Acre. On arriving outside of the walls of Acre the Sicilians are met by an allied army from the Crusader States who bring bad news - the Fatamids have invaded. Together the allies quickly take Acre, which gives the Sicilians a base in the region. After a short period of rest and recuperation most of the Sicilian army moves against the Egyptians who are besieging Jerusalem, and are able to raise the siege by defeating the Fatamid army. With the Fatamids in disarray the Sicilians are able to advance and take the Egyptian castle at Gaza. At this point things look quite rosy, with the Sicilians controlling a town and a castle, to the north and south of Jerusalem. Things look even brighter when the Pope preaches a new crusade against Damietta and news comes of a new Sicilian crusading army readying itself in Palermo. This optimism doesn't last long however when a Jihad is called against Jerusalem and two Turkish armies arrive outside of it's walls...

The question is what to do now? 1) Pursue the war against the Fatamids, letting Jerusalem take it's chances or 2) Declare war on the Turks and relieve the city? I've got a one stack army in Gaza and some garrison troops in Acre. Oddly the Crusader States army has largely evaporated - there's a CS family member with 100 Syrian auxiliaries camped on the coast road between Gaza and Jerusalem and a pretty weak raggle-taggle bunch with two generals sat in Kerak. I wonder if the CS economy is so weak that they are unable to recruit an effective new army once their initial solders have gone?

**Paragon** · April 20, 2012, 11:54 AM

My Early Era crusaders states survived more than 100 turns and counting.
My Late Era ones took ~90 to go down, thought admitelly they would have lasted less if it wasn't for the mongols annoying every islam faction and the first crusade in the game resulting in all the Nile being exterminated and sold (they lost like 30% of their population there)
I have yet to play more long-term campaigns (currently as Norway) but I don't find that much of a problem with it.
Also you should only help Jersualem if you think you really are going to stop them, take the mercenaries into account.

**Lord Baal** · April 20, 2012, 01:13 PM

They are doomed to failure both in real life and in virtual simulations... sad..

**Ferdiad** · April 21, 2012, 06:00 PM

The AI CS in the Late campaign dies around turn 50 nearly always.

**TheDarkKnight** · April 21, 2012, 06:45 PM

I see them failing pretty quickly all the time. They are surrounded and fairly weak, so it isn't really that big of a surprise.

**SirKruk** · April 22, 2012, 08:31 AM

No way, they're doomed in all my games. Which is a source of great fun for me, since playing any western power I enjoy doing all I can to make them survive, and, perhaps, eventually take down Mongol horde (this one is much harder). Of course the further on the map you are the better and no major offensives, just modest elite expeditions like that of Godfrey de Bouillon. In my experience if you provide them second front (think WW2) against Seljuqs or Fatimids then they will stall the other muslim power and eventually win. You just have to do it early in the campaign. For example in my current Franks game I created my own private Kingdom of Jerusalem in Gaza and defended countless turns, until the situation around my European borders allowed me for some major offensive against Cairo.

**Ferdiad** · April 22, 2012, 09:26 AM

Call for crusades against Egypt early on as the HRE or France and that should help the CS survive.

**~~The Kybrothilian~~** · April 22, 2012, 09:34 AM

I've started CS campaign in early era, though I haven't played too far (only 5 turns) I think I made an alliance with Egypt, so that border is secured for a few more turns at least, but the Turks are moving troops in the Edessa region threateningly. My biggest concern though is the CS territories being so spread out.

Should I call a crusade on the Turks?

**Ferdiad** · April 22, 2012, 09:54 AM

I always take out Egypt first, the money is great and that front is closed forever more.

**Mausolos of Caria** · April 23, 2012, 03:46 PM

When playing the Byzantine Empire I allied with them and now in turn 250 they are still there but have only Edessa and Antiochia left.
They only had Antiochia for a while also I helped them all the time and crushed one muslim army after the other so it's really only because of my help that they are still there. In most of my other campaigns the same thing happened as you on here described.