Melee General thoughts? S2

**mdog** · April 15, 2012, 07:34 PM

How viable is a Melee general without any legendary retainers? Can it just be used to insure winning the cav fight and stop their gen from standing and fighting and what is the best Melee spec to use? HP or fatigue resistance with inspire and 1 point in bow.

**Salvator** · April 17, 2012, 06:59 PM

The melee general lost his use with the Fall of the Samurai, guns are just the way to go. But if you play against Shogun 2 generals a melee generals has is obvious advantages.
You don't need legendary retainers to make him useful, but they certainly give you an edge, like +10 attack. I had this setup, a melee general with all points except for morale spent in melee + a bow with extreme high missile damage and armour penetration.
This general is excellent in combat and makes an invaluable harassing unit because he can take out even the heaviest soldiers with a volley (up to 6 soldiers of the generals bodyguard with one volley).
Too bad FotS made him utterly useless

**Szlachta** · April 17, 2012, 07:37 PM

Originally Posted by Salvator

The melee general lost his use with the Fall of the Samurai, guns are just the way to go. But if you play against Shogun 2 generals a melee generals has is obvious advantages.
You don't need legendary retainers to make him useful, but they certainly give you an edge, like +10 attack. I had this setup, a melee general with all points except for morale spent in melee + a bow with extreme high missile damage and armour penetration.
This general is excellent in combat and makes an invaluable harassing unit because he can take out even the heaviest soldiers with a volley (up to 6 soldiers of the generals bodyguard with one volley).
Too bad FotS made him utterly useless

Theres actually a really effective melee core build with a Bushido Gen as the leader. Very effective, instead of using cheap melee as fodder, you use cheap guns as fodder, while you own with a melee 'spam'. Though its not really a spam, just a melee heavy army.

**Salvator** · April 17, 2012, 07:41 PM

Originally Posted by Szlachta

Theres actually a really effective melee core build with a Bushido Gen as the leader. Very effective, instead of using cheap melee as fodder, you use cheap guns as fodder, while you own with a melee 'spam'. Though its not really a spam, just a melee heavy army.

The Bushido General is in my opionion a different type of general, he is much more versatile than his Shogun 2 counterpart and his abilities like extra speed for cavalry and melee infantry make him a beast.

**CptAustus** · April 17, 2012, 07:13 PM

I never really liked melee generals. I did a couple of 5k, 10k and 14k battles with it, using the +1 morale for all units and the +10 defense. Even with those, my general unit would die really quick and take some serious casualties, plus my infantry really had to win the battle quick, or they would rout (because of that, I barely even brought ashigaru). On a side note, GGs are way superior to melee generals if they get their charge and are cheaper, so...

**TheCrazyCat** · April 17, 2012, 08:58 PM

melee gen w/o leg. retainers? Youd be more keen to use Shogun's emissary till you get some good leg. retainers

**Knowing Crow** · April 17, 2012, 09:33 PM

Remember that when playing vanilla you can opt out of playing against FotS armies.

But yes, I would argue that melee generals are obsolete and unplayable in FotS. Bushido in FotS is a different story as they give benefits to your army, and cavalry capturing points is just good.

**Salvator** · April 18, 2012, 10:54 AM

The generals in FotS all have benefits for soldiers, unlike in Shogun 2 where only the Leadership general had the ability Stand and Fight.
Though the Leadership and the Bow general find their use on the battlefield. The leader can control huge armies and the bowman can harass the

out of everyone, but the melee general...

Regarding the melee general I look at the black side, it's not that he's no good in melee fights, frankly he pretty much takes on the best units one on one.
It's more that line infantry is able to fire while being engaged in melee combat. That's the same reason why cavalry is so difficult to handle these days.
A gun is in close quarters the better choice than a two handed sword.

My suggestion to make him usable is to give his armour ability a bulletproof effect which is based on how strong his armour is, just like the bulletproof samurai.
That would even make retainers like +6 armour worth it.

**CptAustus** · April 18, 2012, 11:32 AM

Originally Posted by Salvator

a bulletproof effect which is based on how strong his armour is, just like the bulletproof samurai.

Thats not how it works. Bulletproof samurai are thee only unit in the game able to resist gunpowder damage. It has nothing to do with armour.

**Salvator** · April 18, 2012, 12:43 PM

Originally Posted by CptAustus

Thats not how it works. Bulletproof samurai are thee only unit in the game able to resist gunpowder damage. It has nothing to do with armour.

But the likelyhood of surviving a hit is based on the armour protection of the bulletproof samurai.
The lethality of bullets for this unit is reduced to the same as arrows from bowmen.
I ment this type of effect.

**Knowing Crow** · April 18, 2012, 02:55 PM

Originally Posted by Salvator

But the likelyhood of surviving a hit is based on the armour protection of the bulletproof samurai.
The lethality of bullets for this unit is reduced to the same as arrows from bowmen.
I ment this type of effect.

Likelihood of surviving a hit is based on the accuracy of the unit firing the bullet. Bulletproof samurai have a unique survival modifier versus matchlocks which is something like a 40% improved survival rate I've found through testing. Where they would otherwise be killed, some are simply knocked back in a cartoonish style (bullets didn't actually have the force to knock people back so the animation of being pushed back is nonsensical).

While 40% is significant, arrows are still weaker against units in general than matchlocks are against bulletproof samurai.

Additionally, and I've tested this, Bulletproof Samurai do not have protection against FotS units, including Matchlock Kachi. Matchlock Kachi, as well as every other gunpowder unit in FotS, do not have reduced lethality against Bulletproof Samurai, they all die the same.

**Cawyn** · April 18, 2012, 04:40 PM

Originally Posted by Knowing Crow

Likelihood of surviving a hit is based on the accuracy of the unit firing the bullet. Bulletproof samurai have a unique survival modifier versus matchlocks which is something like a 40% improved survival rate I've found through testing. Where they would otherwise be killed, some are simply knocked back in a cartoonish style (bullets didn't actually have the force to knock people back so the animation of being pushed back is nonsensical).

While 40% is significant, arrows are still weaker against units in general than matchlocks are against bulletproof samurai.

Additionally, and I've tested this, Bulletproof Samurai do not have protection against FotS units, including Matchlock Kachi. Matchlock Kachi, as well as every other gunpowder unit in FotS, do not have reduced lethality against Bulletproof Samurai, they all die the same.

Actually, accuracy doesn't influence the actual chances of scoring a kill as far as I know, only the damage value of the projectile does. E.g. vanilla Shogun 2 matchlocks have a damage of 2, guaranteeing a kill on any non-special unit when they hit, while normal arrows have a damage of 0.3 giving them a 30% chance to kill on successful hit. Of course, additional unknown modifiers could be at work behind the scenes.

What is true however is that all FOTS gun units (including matchlock katchi) come with an armor-piercing modifier, which negates any armor the target might have had. Their damage values are lower than vanilla Shogun 2 values though (0.8 for matchlocks and 0.9 for rifles).