Traditional vs Modern recruitment time

[Kambe]

Since im late in acquiring FOTS I apologize if this has already been discussed. One thing that I noticed immediately is the recruitment times. All modern units except cavalry and artillery require 1 turn to recruit while traditional require 2 turns. Where is the logic in that? I would understand levy units being recruited within 1 turn but elite/foreign infantry ones? Why would traditional units that have been around for centuries require more time then something relatively new? IMO it should be the opposite.

[♘Top Hat Zebra]

Maybe to simulate how long it takes to train them?

Anyone can point a gun and shoot. It takes skill to use a bow, or a spear.

[Kambe]

Maybe to simulate how long it takes to train them?

Anyone can point a gun and shoot. It takes skill to use a bow, or a spear.

I understand your point when comparing kachi to line infantry but elite units only 1 turn? I think this is the first TW title where you can recruit elite units in 1 turn.

[Ecka65]

Maybe to simulate how long it takes to train them?

Anyone can point a gun and shoot. It takes skill to use a bow, or a spear.

I don't agree with this. Units aren't being "trained" per se, they are being raised or mobilised if you like. No unit in the game apart from the lowest of the low could be "trained" in the time of one FotS turn. It would likely take longer than one FotS turn just to get the lowest levies to be able to keep some kind of formation.

I agree with the OP. Currently there is little or no incentive whatsoever to use "traditional" units. They cost more than they should to recruit (in comparison to moderns). They cost more than they should to maintain - AND they take twice as long to recruit.

If a player (or Ai) wants to build mass traditional armies, they should be able to. They'll likely take a lot of casualties as the campaign wears on so they should be able to be pumped out a bit quicker and a bit cheaper - imo.

[♘Top Hat Zebra]

I do agree with you there.

[SgtLong]

Well i think its BS, this is why modding FOTS has made it even and more fun. Why should you get penalized for using what you like?

[Kambe]

@SgtLongWell my point was not with me liking something so it should be changed, my issue is with flawed CA logic.

There is no balance if you can make an elite unit in same time you can make basic one like line infantry. Also I think that the spear/katana takes more time to learn compared to rifle is also flawed. As I said, samurai have been around for centureis. Its not like they only trained in war time, I don't see creating a Kachi unit as gather ppl and train them, I see it more of a gather the samurai and make them a unit, when you gather people and teach them its called a levy unit =) So its ppl who already know how to fight, you just need to gather them or mobilise.

[fws2468]

@SgtLongWell my point was not with me liking something so it should be changed, my issue is with flawed CA logic.

There is no balance if you can make an elite unit in same time you can make basic one like line infantry. Also I think that the spear/katana takes more time to learn compared to rifle is also flawed. As I said, samurai have been around for centureis. Its not like they only trained in war time, I don't see creating a Kachi unit as gather ppl and train them, I see it more of a gather the samurai and make them a unit, when you gather people and teach them its called a levy unit =) So its ppl who already know how to fight, you just need to gather them or mobilise.

It's true that samurai already knew how to fight, but you'll also have to consider their small numbers in proportion to the levy population, so I'm not sure how quickly you can mobilise them to match the scale of levy recruitment. During the early turbulent years of Japan's history, samurais rarely faced prolonged periods of peace, so it wouldn't be surprising if they trained when not immediately at war. But after the Sengoku Jidai, it became much more peaceful and samurais got more and more involved in the arts. So it was a somewhat different scenario by the time of the Boshin War.

As for elite units, I've yet to feel any imbalance in the game as line infantry gain veteran status very quickly and perform decently. Elite units are very costly to upkeep unless you manage to expand perhaps over a quarter of Japan to field several fully elite armies. And by the same reasoning as trained samurais, elite units are supposed to already be good at their job, so no longer recruitment time should be needed. But I get your point and if anything should be restricted, it should be the maximum number of elite units that could be recruited, which is already the case for some unit types.

About traditional units taking two turns to recruit while modern ones only one, I think CA is trying to prevent early cheap rushes with traditional units, especially if you play tradition-advantage clans like Aizu. To recruit modern units, you must pay the price of disorder and time is also needed to research the techs to get the elite units. These do not happen in the case of traditional units. So the issue of balancing could be from this perspective instead.

[Kambe]

I am repeating my post because people are still mentioning how "fast it is to learn to shoot rifle" stuff. As if shooting is the only thing you need in war. It is not even physically possible to train 200 men to shoot, walk/fight in formation, have enough discipline and other in order to consider them any kind of unit but in FOTS you make top tier elite units in 1 turn.

There is no balance if you can make an elite unit in same time you can make basic one like line infantry. Also I think that the spear/katana takes more time to learn compared to rifle is also flawed. As I said, samurai have been around for centuries. Its not like they only trained in war time, I don't see creating a Kachi unit as gather ppl and train them, I see it more of a gather the samurai and make them a unit, when you gather people and teach them its called a levy unit =) So its ppl who already know how to fight, you just need to gather them or mobilize.

[♘Top Hat Zebra]

YEah, you've got me there.


But, if that were the case, you'd have to have a pool of them which could run out.

As it, you could make an infinate amount of them.

[Kambe]

YEah, you've got me there.


But, if that were the case, you'd have to have a pool of them which could run out.

As it, you could make an infinate amount of them.

I would make it like this. Cap kachi units, every dojo/dojo tier built raises cap for certain amount, each province also raises cap for some amount, each town upgarde also raises the amount.

edit: done editing the idea.

[♘Top Hat Zebra]

To be honest, I prefer it how it is.

I was just pointing it out.

[Ferdiad]

To be honest, I prefer it how it is.

I was just pointing it out.

I agree, Makes the game more fun IMO.

[SgtLong]

Then they need a deeper system of recruitment training, kind of like MLB farming system.

[AragornElessar]

some traditionalist tech tree would be nice too

[spartan_warrior]

They same problem is also present with ships, once you get the Shipyard Research tech it only takes one turn to build a Corvette, which is completely unrealistic. There's no way they could build a ship in 2 weeks during this period. Obviously this is for gameplay purposes, otherwise you'd be waiting for about 24 turns just to build one ship, but still it should be at least 4 turns for a Corvette, and more for a Frigate.

[fws2468]

I think the recruitment times are also fine for ships for gameplay purposes. The lowest level trade ports only have one recruitment slot. To increase the ship recruitment time when you've not yet researched the tech to upgrade your port would make you even more defenseless early in the game if your port happens to be attacked by enemy ships.

[Niftyeye]

I prefer it how it is as well at the moment.

What do you think takes longer, teaching a man to perfect the art of the katana or teaching him how to reload and shoot a gun, with a bit of marching thrown in?

[Asuryan]

I'm with Top Hat though, it took a shorter time to train a man to shoot a gun than to swing a sword properly. I watched History Channel ages ago, they said it took only weeks to train some basic musketeers while it took years to train infantries. Also, according to some other discussions going on on this site, it took years to train melee infantries, especially the professional ones (about 5 years if my memory is right). You know that a bullet of a newly levied musketeer can kill a 40 year old, thousand battle samurai veteran who is charging at him anyway.

[Ferdiad]

History Channel is the Wikipedia of History, It aint reliable. Elites train a bit fast though, they should take at least 2 turns.