FOTS: Huge Defender's Advantage

[Rond]

I've noticed, that either in naval or land, but mostly on field battles; assuming an equal sized force of equal composition, the defender will always have a huge advantage?

Here is the break down:

Starting with the artillery exchange. The attacker forced to take the battle to the defender, needs to close the distance. That gives huge freedom for the defender to set up position. Artillery can be placed in the front line for devastating effect, and just move your infantry forward when their army approaches. Even if the attacker's artillery tries to move in to unload, they will take at least 3-4 shots from the defender's artillery before being able to fire a single shot. And if god forbid, the defender manages to take out their artillery, the attacker is pretty much toast. You can comfortably set your own artillery behind your lines, and they will be shooting throughout the whole battle.

Then the infantry lines meet, guess who'll have the first shot- the defender. And first shot is no little nuance in this game, it might be moment that defines the rest of the battle. Before the attacking infantry shoots, they'll lose at least 20% of their unit size; creating a snowball effect in the defender's favor. Again, this is not counting the loses already taken from artillery. If you add kneel fire, it just becomes a rofl stomp.

How would you approach the fight as an attacker? Assume an open, leveled field, equal sized force.

[SPARTAN VI]

I'd try sacrificing a unit to screen for my main force. Also approaching from an angle; line infantry in general don't shoot when reforming and are notoriously hard to move when "front-line kneeling" is toggled. Being the attacker, you get to choose when and where to engage; so approach from an angle with hills or even small mounds. Even the most insignificant looking hill may block LOS from a line infantry unit.

[Lazarus]

Assuming it's all flat? Make the enemy move. Split your forces 50/50 and set your lines up to create a H (with the horizontal line being the enemy lines). Either they turn to face you, giving you some time to unload a volley or two on their units, or they just stand there and cop it. Also, if they turn to only face one line, you've got the advantage of running up behind and obliterating them.

[Ecka65]

Well, your observations are pretty accurate - hence the bloody stalemate of WW1. The minimum for considering an attack was often quoted as 3-1 or greater.

Spartan's advice re FotS field battles is sound. Bringing troops in at an angle can force the enemy line to adjust. Your first contacting units will get hurt, but the rest can often settle and get the first volley away.

Naval battles are whole different kettle of fish unfortunately as nothing with any staying power can shoot forward. The attacker has to sail into the defending gun line which can hurt badly. I'm still working on the latter...but torpedo boats have proved effective in forcing the enemy gunline to break up.

[assistec24]

Well, your observations are pretty accurate - hence the bloody stalemate of WW1. The minimum for considering an attack was often quoted as 3-1 or greater.

Spartan's advice re FotS field battles is sound. Bringing troops in at an angle can force the enemy line to adjust. Your first contacting units will get hurt, but the rest can often settle and get the first volley away.

Naval battles are whole different kettle of fish unfortunately as nothing with any staying power can shoot forward. The attacker has to sail into the defending gun line which can hurt badly. I'm still working on the latter...but torpedo boats have proved effective in forcing the enemy gunline to break up.

1. U are talking about MP or SP? ???
2.Spartan are+- wright.less bc IF the defender put his troops in a corner of the map, are no maneuvers here to split his forces; all that thing will be a nonsense.
3. Torpedo boats are +- effective, bc u need a HUGE amount of them to be a danger (a ranaoke will kill easy 4-5 toys like that in no time, before the torpedo's can be close to him; Also the torpedo speed are ridiculos, so its relative easy to outmaneuver them.
4. In naval, numbers are nothing: i fight a huge fleet of 5 gunboats, (MP) + 2 torpedo boats + 3 frigates only with a ranaoke and a small ironclad (admiral ship); I just keep away the flag ship and kill one after one all little boats with ranaoke formidable firepower. Several times ONE broadside with armor piercing rounds (best range, + 1000) will kataboom a torpedo boat or gunboat, and I see some like 25% chances a wooden frigate will explode after just one broadside. So, naval fights are more with skills then with numbers.

[♘Top Hat Zebra]

The defender is ALWAYS at an advantage when guns are involved.

[Dynamo11]

Even in real life warfare the defender has the advantage. Best to adapt your strategy and try and coax the enemy into attacking you

[StukaJr]

(Un)fortunately every new release of TW seems to forget that simple fact - defending AI attacking the attacker (regardless of strength) breaks the combat in every TW game... Empire seems to have fixed that for some of the engagements, Shogun 2 was pretty good straight out of the box (except for "run for the hill" tactic) but FOTS is back in "let's just run at the enemy" tactic...

8 out of 10 battles where BAI is defending, the fools just run at overwhelming force...

As for rare encounters where you fight equal force in open field (and BAI doesn't act stupid) - you kinda deserve to be smacked with huge losses... Wins are usually made on campaign map - does your army have agents, did you try to ambush, did you agent spam the enemy stack etc... If enemy army is equivalent to yours, then it's bound to be turning bloody if going head to head...

Try experimenting with hit and run tactic - sometime trading a skirmish unit for enemy generals or luring out a skirmish unit in your artillery is what you need.

Or you can be a coward (like me) - lay ambushes / hide in cities until you have either numerical or qualitative supperiority

[priam11]

(Un)fortunately every new release of TW seems to forget that simple fact - defending AI attacking the attacker (regardless of strength) breaks the combat in every TW game... Empire seems to have fixed that for some of the engagements, Shogun 2 was pretty good straight out of the box (except for "run for the hill" tactic) but FOTS is back in "let's just run at the enemy" tactic...

8 out of 10 battles where BAI is defending, the fools just run at overwhelming force...

This. 1000 times this.

I do not understand the mechanics of what changed from S2 to now but they seem to revert back to the AI always attacking.

Just try to play 2 custom battles. Both forces equal in number and type of units. Have the AI attack in one and set them up to defend in another. If you do not lose the second battle, it is an almost certainty that you will suffer heavy casualties.

In FOTS I have actually had a few battles where I lost noone as I defended. And this was under a very hard battle setting (unless that is broken).

[Forward Observer]

This. 1000 times this.

I do not understand the mechanics of what changed from S2 to now but they seem to revert back to the AI always attacking.

Just try to play 2 custom battles. Both forces equal in number and type of units. Have the AI attack in one and set them up to defend in another. If you do not lose the second battle, it is an almost certainty that you will suffer heavy casualties.

In FOTS I have actually had a few battles where I lost noone as I defended. And this was under a very hard battle setting (unless that is broken).

Nothing has really changed other than the fact that now in FOTS, the player tends to bring long range artillery to most field battles while they do not in Shogun II.

It is and always has been a game mechanic of all the Total War games (at least the Warscape engine based games) that if the player has long range heavy weapons (ballistic or non-ballistic), and the BAI has either none or less than the player, the BAI will always go on the offensive regardless of which side initiates the battle, or the relative sizes of the armies. This only applies to field battles of course.

This has its basis in the fact that all of the artillery is either immobile or if mobile---slower than a snail.

To repeat, the reason that you do not notice this in Shogun II is that rarely do single players bring any of the early long range siege weapons to field battles until very late in the game.

If you want to test this, it is very simple. Go to custom battle and pick any two Shogun II armies--say Hojo and Shimazu. Give each a general and 3 identical spear units, but make sure you are the attacker. When you go to the battle field, unless you attack, nothing will happen. The other army will not move.

Now, set this up again with you as the attacker, but this time add a mangonel to your army. Guess what?
Even though they are completely beyond the mangonel's reach---instead of maintaining their position, the defender will suddenly go on the attack. It also doesn't matter if you have an army of 10 spear units to their 3, they will still attack if you have a mangonel or cannon.

This mechanic has always been present. It's simply more obvious now that artillery is the norm in FOTS armies.

If neither army has any long range weapons then it is a function of not only which side initiates
the attack, but also of the comparative size and strength of the opposing forces.

If the amount of artillery units in each army is equal and you attack, the BAI will actually hold their position and defend unless you somehow destroy some of their artillery tipping the balance in your favor. Then magically they will go on the attack. If they attack with superior artillery, they usually do not deploy it well or if they have mobile artillery, they tend to wait too late to deploy it.

There are exceptions to this mechanic in that every once in a while the BAI will either get stuck or conversely march back and forth on the battle field like they are performing the half time show at the Rose Bowl. I assume this is due to some path finding bug or related to the bug where they get stuck in castle assualts.

Personally, being a fan of the big guns, I like it. I also always brought a mangonel to field battles in Shogun II just as soon as I could recruit one because of this mechanic.

I hate to lose men needlessly and to quote Sun Tzu:

1. Invincibility lies in the defense; the possibility of victory in the attack

2. In war, good sportsmanship is for suckers. (Actually this is my saying, but I'm I sure one of his rules parallels this)

Cheers

[Titan Uranus]

Widen your lines, it has no real disadvantage, except maybe being a bit harder to control, concentrate your force on one of the flanks. What you really want to do is start a mass rout. His flankers (Cav, Samis,ect) are your primary threats. You should hit that aforementioned flank with your cav.

You want to kill his general while the battle is ongoing, that is when it has the most effect.

Roll up his flank.

You win.



Now since there are no flat maps, and precious few non-hilly ones, terrain is extremely useful to shield your advance.



I had this nice long post, figures and all but the ing back button on my mouse is to damn easy to hit.

[Szlachta]

Are we talking AI? because whether your attacking or defending, the AI will just rush you like a newb and get slaughtered.

[♘Top Hat Zebra]

Are we talking AI? because whether your attacking or defending, the AI will just rush you like a newb and get slaughtered.

I remember one battle I had lasted almost half an hour, because the AI wouldn't come down off this hill, so I had to keep sending skirmishers to try to force them off.

But those kind of battles are definitely in the minority.

[nelso273]

Nothing has really changed other than the fact that now in FOTS, the player tends to bring long range artillery to most field battles while they do not in Shogun II.

It is and always has been a game mechanic of all the Total War games (at least the Warscape engine based games) that if the player has long range heavy weapons (ballistic or non-ballistic), and the BAI has either none or less than the player, the BAI will always go on the offensive regardless of which side initiates the battle, or the relative sizes of the armies. This only applies to field battles of course...

If neither army has any long range weapons then it is a function of not only which side initiates
the attack, but also of the comparative size and strength of the opposing forces...

If the amount of artillery units in each army is equal and you attack, the BAI will actually hold their position and defend unless you somehow destroy some of their artillery tipping the balance in your favor. Then magically they will go on the attack. If they attack with superior artillery, they usually do not deploy it well or if they have mobile artillery, they tend to wait too late to deploy it...

Cheers

Yup, that's my understanding of how the BAI works, but I think it's too simple. The idea is that if you're outgunned artillery-wise and stay put, the enemy can unload all of their ammo before sending in troops, but if you advance, the enemy can only unload some of their ammo before you're past their minimum range or tangled with their troops. This is handled by the AI in a "charge or don't charge" calculation at the start of the battle based on how many guns each side has. There's some scenarios where this is too simple of a decision though. For example:

- If you have 4 guns and the defending BAI has 2, they should still stick them in the front of their formation and force you to exchange rounds. They will probably lose their cannons, but they will take a chunk out of yours and actually put their guns to use instead of just leaving them behind. Also, since cannons are slow and take time to set up, the 2 defending guns will get off a few rounds before they receive return fire.

- If the defending BAI has no guns and you have some, they should still wait until they are under fire before charging in. At the very least, it makes you bring your troops out to the center of the map and into a more vulnerable position.

As it stands, BAI with two guns, defending against attackers with four guns, will abandon their artillery (leaving it useless at the back of the map) and march straight up a hill to meet the attackers. This seems silly.

[Noif de Bodemloze]

It is funny when I besieging castle. The meter always show that they have huge advantage and they kick me ass, as I had same numbers on my Choshu army and Tsushima-Fuchu. Breaking that advantage. I starving them and force them come to land battle, if they really want siege battle. I always carry 2-3 artillery in my army. Destroying walls and gates, where enemies infantry are standing. 1 time I use naval artillery at begin to lowering their numbers. When Artillery fire is exchanged. First I send my line infantry near wall and shooting these enemies from wall. While line infantry are shooting. I send my Katana and Yari Kachi throw gates or walls. After kachis, I send my strong line infantries supporting my kachies in close combat.

[Humble Warrior]

Congratulations, CA TW has taught you something realistic about warfare!
As in most wars with armies of equal size the Defender always has the advantage as others have said. Even if you disregard everything else, just the fact that the defender is rested while the attacker has to march forward already gives an advantage.

You didn`t mention Navy arty. Naval arty is a great way to neutralise enemy artillery.

If I have no naval artillerry then my own artillery will usually take out the enemy guns first as they are the 1st things I target and I usually win that battle. If you`re really brave, target the enemy General, if you can get a lucky kill on him, you`ve more or less won once you get to grips.

If you have cavalry do everything to flank those cannons- Everything! Just charge head on if you can`t flank- sacrifice them if need be. Even if they get intercepted try to get intercepted near the enemy cannons. they`ll be blocked and in the meantime you can try and rush everyone forwards.

If I have no arty (or it gets destroyed) or cavalry then you have to do what the real guys did, either retreat or move forward taking the crap. I usually find with equal forces I can risk it as long as I space everyone out and rush everyone at the last moment. Use rifles to keep the main enemy line occupied and try to engage and flank from the rear the sides.

[Tuan Jim]

Congratulations, CA TW has taught you something realistic about warfare!
As in most wars with armies of equal size the Defender always has the advantage as others have said. Even if you disregard everything else, just the fact that the defender is rested while the attacker has to march forward already gives an advantage.

You didn`t mention Navy arty. Naval arty is a great way to neutralise enemy artillery.

If I have no naval artillerry then my own artillery will usually take out the enemy guns first as they are the 1st things I target and I usually win that battle. If you`re really brave, target the enemy General, if you can get a lucky kill on him, you`ve more or less won once you get to grips.

If you have cavalry do everything to flank those cannons- Everything! Just charge head on if you can`t flank- sacrifice them if need be. Even if they get intercepted try to get intercepted near the enemy cannons. they`ll be blocked and in the meantime you can try and rush everyone forwards.

If I have no arty (or it gets destroyed) or cavalry then you have to do what the real guys did, either retreat or move forward taking the crap. I usually find with equal forces I can risk it as long as I space everyone out and rush everyone at the last moment. Use rifles to keep the main enemy line occupied and try to engage and flank from the rear the sides.

[Tuan Jim]

Congratulations, CA TW has taught you something realistic about warfare!
As in most wars with armies of equal size the Defender always has the advantage as others have said. Even if you disregard everything else, just the fact that the defender is rested while the attacker has to march forward already gives an advantage.

You didn`t mention Navy arty. Naval arty is a great way to neutralise enemy artillery.

Generally the AI attacks me, so I felt lucky to make an attack at one point. I thought the naval artillery was going to tilt the balance, but I was up against veteran Tosa riflemen on a hill and I lost the battle eventually despite naval artillery and parrot guns.

[Atlanton]

I really disagree that defenders have the artillery advantage. As castles become more and more upgraded, your artillery loses its ability to get a clear shot. As the enemies close to the walls, suddenly you cannot shoot anything.

Meanwhile, the attacker, even with wooden cannons, can destroy walls easily, which in turn kills large groups of men close to the wall. Pulling back is the sensible solution in this case, but then you no longer have the advantage of raining fire on your advancing foes.

Overall, defenders have the advantage, but I wish artillery could be used a little more defensibly.

[metziih]

No matter what the fight, player is allways at advantage due to retarded AI.