Balance prices system

[Fettel88]

So that's. Like the title says i want to know how professionals modding calculate their prices for new units and for the already in the game. I want to know a good system that uses armor attack charge defense skill moral abilities and all the other stuff. Preferably based in retrofit mod units so to do not have to readapt all vanilla units to the system.

Thanks in advance guys.

[Silverheart]

Are you planning to make a mod?
Or are you planning to change some game files, and alter the prices of units there?
Or are you just generally interested in how professional modders work?

Please clarify a little, for I am honestly not sure exactly what you´re after here...

[Fettel88]

I just want a fair price system for my mod. Just a example: why cost 1 dismounted feudal knight 540? why not more expensive? or cheaper? Morale:67.5 Attack:67.5 Charge:67.5 defense skill:67.5 armor:67.5 shield:67.5 hardy:67.5 animation speed:67.5 = 540? I know it's a stupid system but it's just an example.

[Silverheart]

So you want to know what system to base the unit prices on?

Then I suggest two things, choose wichever you prefer:
First choice; just make up the prices yourself, based on wether you think the original ones (in vanilla) are good or needs to be adjusted.
You mentioned the recruitment cost for knights as example - well, if you think it´s too cheap, then make it more expensive. Just make sure to consider the consequenses - how the AI will react to the adjusted cost. Increasing the recruitment cost of a unit will make the AI recruit fewer of it, decreasing will make that unit more common-sight.

Second choice; Take contact with some people who have made mods, or are in the process of making mods, and ask them if they alter the unit prices - and, if they do, ask what they base the altered costs on.

That´s what I would suggest, anyway.
I´m no modder myself - I only have ideas for mods, but neither the means nor the motivation or time to get on it

[NobleNick]

I am not a modder, but I can give you a few thoughts from the perspective of a player who runs custom battles to figure out the "best buy" in units.

You need to balance two things:

1.) Price/performance (abbreviated p/p from now on) of that unit compared to other factions' similar units (keeping in mind the economic balance of power of all the factions and building hierarchy which needs to be traversed in order to build the unit). For instance, If your Knights cost 300 + 50 upkeep (hereafter simply "300/50"); and other factions' knights average 700/250, then there is imbalance. If all of that faction's units are similarly discounted, then that faction will be too easy to play and other factions too hard: gameplay enjoyment suffers. An example of taking economy into account: Many (I think all) of the Mongols' units have zero upkeep, but that is fair, since they have no economy.

2.) Average p/p of all factions' units of that type, versus average p/p of all factions' other units. For example, if the average cost of all factions' Knights is 1500/350, and the cost of spears, crossbowmen and swordsmen are all 250/50, then (assuming relative performance of unit types is similar to vanilla M2TW) you will see very few knights fielded. Again gameplay suffers.

So, you need to price your unit such that its p/p is not out of line with other units (of the same tier) and other factions. If you do not, enterprising players will take advantage, and over use (or not use) mis-priced units, and soon tire of the game.

What I look for in a unit is to minimize overall p/p. The way I set price, is to assume, for my play style that a unit will last 10 turns. So total price is the build cost + ten times the upkeep cost. One of the ways I determine performace is to run custom battles. None of the M2TW experiments come to mind, so let me digress to RTW for an example (the technique is exactly the same for M2TW). I ran custom battles with different numbers of Roman Legionary Cohorts ("LC") against Roman Urban Cohorts ("UC"), Greece's Spartans and other Heavy Infantry ("H.I.") baddies from other factions. I kept changing up unit ratios (maybe 9 LC versus 7 UC, or 12 UC versus 10 Spartans, etc.) to figure out the exact point of parity. For instance (and it has been so long, I -AM- pulling these numbers out of a hat), maybe 5 LC is worth the same as 4 UC on the battlefield. What I found out was:
1.) LC was, unit-for-unit, better than every other commonly available H.I. unit in the game, except for UC and Spartans.
2.) Spartans were, unit-for-unit, better than every other commonly available H.I. unit in the game.
3.) Spartans are EXTREMELY vulnerable to arrow fire from the back, much more so than any post-marius Roman H.I. unit. Four Spartan units can definitely wallop four UC; but are in trouble against three UC plus a well placed archer unit.
4.) LC was, DENARII-FOR-DENARII, better than any other H.I. unit in the game, including Spartans.

So, what did I do? Made lots and lots and lots of LC; and never made a UC unit.

Back to M2TW: I would determine the performance factor of your Dismounted Feudal Knight ("DFK") against, say, English Armored Swords ("EAS"), Venetian Heavy Infantry ("VHI"), and Janissary Heavy Infantry ("JHI"). I would do it in the form of parity ratios, where a ratio of X:Y means that X DFKs are evenly matched against Y opponents. Let's just say (and, again, I am pulling numbers out of a dark place to make the math easy) that the costs parity ratios (X:Y) are:

4:5 against EAS (400/100)
6:7 against VHI (550/125)
7:5 against JHI (600/150)

You further assume that a unit last an average of 8 turns. So, the DFK is evenly matched against (400 + (8 x 100)) x (5/4) = 1500 Florins of EAS; (550 + (8 x 125)) x (7/6) = 1808 Florins of VHI; and (600 + (8 x 150)) x (5/7) = 1286 Florins of JHI. You also note that, although the JHI look way underpriced, they are very vulnerable to arrow fire, which your DFK (I am assuming) are not. You throw in a correction factor of 300 for that; which brings the comparison to: 1586, 1500, and 1808. Therefore a total cost of anywhere from 1500 to 1800 Florins would be reasonable. "600/125" = 600 + (8 x 125) = 1600 is one of many solutions which you could do.

To recap:

1.) Total price = (build price) + ((Y turns) x (upkeep/turn))
2.) Balance p/p of that unit against that of similar-tiered units in other factions, taking into account faction economy and buidlings needed.
3.) Balance p/p of all factions' units of that type against average p/p of other unit types

I hope that helps.

[Theseus1234]

Another way people go about pricing is looking at the historical requirements for training such a unit. For example, recruiting militia from towns and arming them with a spear, shield, and some padded armor would cost a certain amount of money, whereas the salary for knights plus the forging of their steel armor and weaponry would cost a lot more. I think Stainless Steel prices units based not only on performance but what is required to train that unit (in terms of time which translates into more money spent on that unit), the materials used to arm them, and their probable salary.

You can create a universal system where all militia units would cost X amount of florins to train, spears and shields would cost Y florins to forge, and crossbows cost Z florins. Thus the price for recruiting spear militia would be X+Y florins (training the militia and equipping them with spears and shields) and the price for recruiting crossbow militia would be X+Z florins (again, training the militia but this time arming them with crossbows). You can expand this system to knights and other professionals as well. Designate a universal price for training knights and training professionals, come up with a reasonable price for specific armor and weapon types, and then add them together to get a recruitment cost.

Upkeep would be both maintaining the unit as a whole, salaries for said units, and maintaining their equipment. Thus a knight would have both a higher salary and require more money to maintain the steel armor whereas spear militia would need a much smaller salary and less upkeep for a simple spear and shield.

Those are just my thoughts based on what I've seen from other mods. Hope it helps!

[Ferdiad]

Here is the system from the XC mod.

;Weapon                Value    Cost
;
;Dagger                0.1        50
;Club                0.25    25
;Pike                0.285    200
;Iphicratean spear    0.3        150
;Spear                0.325    100
;Axe/Mace            0.35    150
;Short Sword/falx     0.375    200
;Gladius/Falcata    0.4        250
;Long Sword            0.425    300
;2h Sword/Axe        0.45    500/250
;Lance                0.95    150

; Armour equipment                    Value    Def Mod    Cost
;
; none, no helmet:                     0    +2       0
; none, leather cap:                    1    +2      50
; leather, no helmet:                    2    +2     100
; leather, leather cap:                    3    +2     150
; none, helmet:                        3    +2     200
; leather, helmet:                    4    +1     300
; padded, helmet:                    4    +1     300
; breastplate, leather cap:                4     0     450
; breastplate, helmet:                    5     0     500
; light linothorax/heavy leather, helmet:        5     0     600
; linothorax, helmet:                    6     0     700
; mail/light scale, no helmet:                6    -1     850
; mail/light scale, helmet:                7    -1     950
; light linothorax, breastplate                7    -1    1000
; heavy scale, no helmet:                7    -2    1100
; heavy scale/mail, helmet:                8    -2    1200
; barbarian cuirass, helmet:                8    -2    1400
; lorica segmentata, helmet:                8    -1    1200
; mail+breastplate, helmet:                 9    -2    1350
; half cuirass, helmet:                    9    -2    1500
; muscle cuirass, helmet:                10    -3    1800
; muscle cuirass, horse barding:            11    -2    1800 + horse cost
; composite mail, helmet, chain veil:            12    -3    2000
; heavy scale, hemikataphract horse:            12    -3    1200 + horse cost
; mail, kataphract horse:                14    -4     950 + horse cost
; heavy scale, kataphract horse:            18    -4    1200 + horse cost

;Shield type                Value    Def modifier    Cost
;
;no shield                0    +2        0
;Thracian pelta                1    +2        30
;Light round shield            2    +2        50
;round shield, iron boss        3    +1        100
;Light thureos                3    +1        100
;thureos, boss/spine            4     0        150
;Wicker shield                4    -1        100
;Aspis/scutum                5    -1        200

; Upkeep system
; base
; garrison: 250
; levy: 280
; militia: 500
; regular: 850
; professional: 1000
; elite: 1500
;
; recruitment cost = upkeep + equipment
; cavalry cost = upkeep + (mount + equipment)/2
;
; Mount cost:
;
; Mount                    Cost
;
; light horse            500
; medium horse            700
; heavy horse            950
; generals horse        1450
; horse half arm        1450
; horse armoured        2225
; horse kataphract        2650
; camel                900
; camel    kataphract        2600
; barb chariot            1750
; sabean chariot        1750
; greek chariot            2375
; elephant forest        1900
; elephant indian        2375
; elephant african        2850    
; elephant kataphract    4925
;
;
;modifiers:
;
;barbarian: -10%
;Carthage: -5% cav
;GCS: -10% inf, +10% cav
;roman: -10% inf, +20% cav
;eastern: +10% inf, -10% cav
;steppe: +20% inf, -20% cav
;elephant: +20%

[Fettel88]

I’m not interested on buildings or tech trees. Mostly I’m interested on balance stats and costs for all units to be more or less useful. I’m other words I’m thinking about multiplayer battles instead of campaign.
That's why i ask for attack defense amour and all the other stuff values. Anyway thanks to everyone for the replies it really helps.

[Diamond]

Might I add that this system you're looking for (or looking to create, rather) might have general flaws. A unit of border horse (light cavalry with low stats synonymous with basic a spearman unit) should cost much more than that basic spearman unit, solely for being cavalry. This might happen in several places in the tech tree. Just a warning.

[Ferdiad]

This is a fairly realistic value I think for something like that.

light horse 500