Too much Western pride? or too much Western guilt?

[cookiemonster]

what i mean by this question is essentially in the title does western culture naturally still have the post imperial arrogance with the way we treat other peoples and culture? and generally western nations have done far worst for humanity than any good?
or do you think that the values Western nations endorse and spread (sometimes by force) have benefited humanity, and we now because of political correctness we have adopted spineless attuide to nations who are socially and politically far inferior to the values of western nations

i think this is an interesting question because of the wide range of views that people have about this issue,

[Aodh Mor]

To be honest I think the idea that any civilisation even has to 'benefit humanity' is highly dubious - the west has done some bad and some good, just like all other cultures. I think your question requires a massive oversimplification, because there isn't even some monolithic 'west', i presume you mean Anglo-America, perhaps France as well. Yet, would you say the Netherlands and Belgium, Denmark, Sweden and all of the smaller countries (take my home into the equation as well i guess - Ireland) have done more harm than good?

I think when you talk of the value of a nation, you have to think about what exactly a nation is. A Nation is not its government, the nation and its state are linked, but still separate. Eg. I may think American foreign policy is imperialist and over-aggressive, but that does not mean American Cinema is in some way tainted by the choices of a small room of men and one woman. (Since american governments need the obligatory token woman these days). As far as I've been taught, the 'Nation' refers mostly to the ppl, eg. for irish nationalists the Irish nation is 32 counties while the Irish state is 26. So, have western nations done more harm than good?

I'd say absolutely not, look at the cultural works Europe has produced, the way our artists have innovated in Literature, Art, Music and the Humanities. Look at the wide range of progressive ideas Europe has produced, from Solon and Pysistratos all the way down to the EU. Yet, Every continent has produced amazing things, look at Anghkor or read any Arabian fiction. Look at the old palaces of the Caliphate, or the painting of Wen Zhengming in China. We've all done bad, but I think we've produced so much good across this planet.

[Claudius Gothicus]

No, western culture is:

-Atomized, there's many expressions of ''western culture'' and they express both dislike and nostalgia for the Imperial Era.

-Conflicting, basically western culture is one big battleground between Liberalism and Conservatism, Idealism and Realism, Instrumental vs. Emancipatory views. Within that huge ''battleground of ideas'' the public sphere is born and raised. Nowadays many philosophers are betting that said sphere is once again shading away due to mass consumerism and the retirement of masses from active politics.

-Alternating, yes the visions of how to look at the other ''cultural actors'' of modernity alternate: from Neoconservatism(which has infused itself with a teleological concept of democratic peace, through firepower if possible) to isolationism, with ''in the middle'' positions in regards to political activity which regard active intervention or ''letting things develop'' in accordance to the context(which is basically the paradigm that has ruled international policy ever since Obama stepped in)

[Duke Dolphin]

I think looking back in history, the west has never been a friendly bunch. You only need to look at things such as the slave trade and atrocities against natives to figure that out. But we are all human and desire power and to be remembered, so i can't exactly blame them in the past on equal terms as if they did such acts today, because they could get away with it back then, its not like other continents didn't commit atrocities and have such empires.

[dogukan]

Well, if we are to consider a "relativist aprroach" here, it would be even bad to start the journey by asking the question "was west bad-good" where we define these terms from the western perspective, which brings us to arrogance again

[removeduser_4536284751384]

I think looking back in history, the west has never been a friendly bunch. You only need to look at things such as the slave trade and atrocities against natives to figure that out. But we are all human and desire power and to be remembered, so i can't exactly blame them in the past on equal terms as if they did such acts today, because they could get away with it back then, its not like other continents didn't commit atrocities and have such empires.

You'll have a hard time showing the west has historically been a "more unfriendly bunch" than anyone else in history. Despite the American slave trade, slaves were never permitted in Europe, unlike the huge Arab slave trade or simply taking others as slaves that happened in Africa and India. Slavery hasn't been present in Europe since the emergence of Christendom.

[Mangalore]

... Slavery hasn't been present in Europe since the emergence of Christendom.

You should check what a lord could do to his peasants and serfs and try to find a difference. The feudal contracts and social division even got worse as time went on.

[Himster]

Both. Both are over-reactions to the other.

[Påsan]

Its the disunified nature of Europe that have allowed it to achieve much of what we think of as "western" today. But I think that if you like the current world order, you have much to thank the "western" world for, as it have mainly been conceived by American and European minds. I think the greatest contribution is the Industrial Revolution, which have allowed humanity to progress in an astonishing rate and have brought relative richness to most corners of the world.

As for the slave trade, it is a blight on history, but not on only Europe's hands, most cultures have participated in the enslavement of others, and the Arabs are perhaps even more guilty of this then Europe. If anything, the west can be credited by ending the slave trade, and the continued enforcement of this.

[Vizsla]

I feel neither guilt nor pride. I just live.
It doesn’t matter anymore.
We are where we are. Now we have to deal with it.
No one living caused things to be this way.
Everyone has to take responsibility for their own affairs.
Most developing countries’ problems are caused more by corruption within the ruling elite than by history. I’m not responsible for that but I am prepared to help, if I can.

[Dick Cheney.]

what i mean by this question is essentially in the title does western culture naturally still have the post imperial arrogance with the way we treat other peoples and culture? and generally western nations have done far worst for humanity than any good?
or do you think that the values Western nations endorse and spread (sometimes by force) have benefited humanity, and we now because of political correctness we have adopted spineless attuide to nations who are socially and politically far inferior to the values of western nations.

I favor the second, but we should not understand it for arrogance. America for instance is an exceptional nation, meaning that it was not founded by any one ethic group, tribe, or ruling class, but a melting pot of different people united by democratic ideas. Americans have thus been much more instinctively inclined than other nations to advocate policies that favor principles and moralities over self-interest. It is therefore natural and somewhat expected that a "country of ideas" would (and should) act differently among the community of nations. The United States by and large has advanced the calls for liberty and democracy throughout the world, and has stayed true to its idea roots by doing so. This isn't something it needs to apologize for.

[Fight!]

The split between East and West is too vague, I think, simply because West is split between European and American. At least that's how I feel.

As a U.S. citizen, I feel we have a totally different culture than Europeans. We Americans tend to have largely different values, which is largely expressed in the difference between American and European cinema.

So to answer the question, I believe that West (U.S.) has too much pride, while West (Euro) has a moderate amount of pride and guilt (Germany might have too much guilt, Britain might have too much pride, etc, but pretty average overall)

[removeduser_4536284751384]

The split between East and West is too vague, I think, simply because West is split between European and American. At least that's how I feel.

As a U.S. citizen, I feel we have a totally different culture than Europeans. We Americans tend to have largely different values, which is largely expressed in the difference between American and European cinema.

So to answer the question, I believe that West (U.S.) has too much pride, while West (Euro) has a moderate amount of pride and guilt (Germany might have too much guilt, Britain might have too much pride, etc, but pretty average overall)

The differences between European and American cultures are relatively small. I don't notice any categorical differences between American and European cinema? Could you expand?

I favor the second, but we should not understand it for arrogance. America for instance is an exceptional nation, meaning that it was not founded by any one ethic group, tribe, or ruling class, but a melting pot of different people united by democratic ideas. Americans have thus been much more instinctively inclined than other nations to advocate policies that favor principles and moralities over self-interest. It is therefore natural and somewhat expected that a "country of ideas" would (and should) act differently among the community of nations. The United States by and large has advanced the calls for liberty and democracy throughout the world, and has stayed true to its idea roots by doing so. This isn't something it needs to apologize for.

The USA is not exceptional in being an immigrant nation. There are immigrant nations throughout the Americas and there are also a few in the Old World. It once was exceptional in being a democracy (although remember that so was the UK from the very first British settlement in America), as most other countries weren't in the 18th and 19th centuries. But it isn't any more.

You'll have an extremely hard time prooving that the USA has an altruistic foreign policy (hint: it doesn't), or showing that when it has been altruistic, it has done so more than any other nation. Morality and self-interest and very often the same thing.

In domestic affairs the USA is not too different from other nations either. Despite a culture that values responsibility and independence it spends a higher percentage of GDP than many European nations (including mine) on social welfare. What is exceptional about the USA if it is bang on average in this area? Despite also having a culture that supposedly emphasizes individual liberty, Americans also somehow managed to reconcile this with the state-sponsored racism that occured there in the second half of the 20th century. America is exceptional in this area, as only one other nation has managed anything similar: South Africa.

I don't think you can justifiably claim America is much different culturally from any other western nation, which all hav e their good and bad sides. I can't see much difference between America now and the British Empire under Victoria. The similarities are so huge it's very to call America exceptional. Britian had its own exceptionalism then -white man's burden and all - yet you don't seem to have learned much from it. And before you start pointing out bad things the British Empire did during that time, America did its own share of similar things, particularly during the Cold War.

[Fight!]

The differences between European and American cultures are relatively small. I don't notice any categorical differences between American and European cinema? Could you expand?

Looking back on that post, I shouldn't have referenced cinema. I probably haven't watched enough European movies to say, too busy watching Asian movies

As for the significance of the cultural differences, I don't believe they are small, but I also shouldn't have called them large. I feel that American culture largely has a "bigger is better", "might is right" mentality that sets it apart from European culture, particularly in the context of this thread.

To put it another way, Americans are far more likely to be obese or own guns compared to other countries.

[Imperial]

Looking back on that post, I shouldn't have referenced cinema. I probably haven't watched enough European movies to say, too busy watching Asian movies

As for the significance of the cultural differences, I don't believe they are small, but I also shouldn't have called them large. I feel that American culture largely has a "bigger is better", "might is right" mentality that sets it apart from European culture, particularly in the context of this thread.

To put it another way, Americans are far more likely to be obese or own guns compared to other countries.

The Swiss are more heavily armed then Americans and the whole western world is becoming just as fat or fatter in some cases than their American companion.

So no, not really.

[hellheaven1987]

Does Russia count as West?

[Sir Winston Churchill]

Western nations endorse and spread (sometimes by force) have benefited humanity, and we now because of political correctness we have adopted spineless attuide to nations who are socially and politically far inferior to the values of western nations

We're greedy corporate states that bend to the will of immoral oil barons and our populace's ignorance and unwillingness to sacrifice for the greater good.

[Rolling Thunder]

We're greedy corporate states that bend to the will of immoral oil barons and our populace's ignorance and unwillingness to sacrifice for the greater good.

Of course, because everything you heard from Michael Moore is an absolute truth.

[Exarch]

there is no such thing as 'western culture'; to some ppl, 'western' means caucasian ppls and christian values, yet others include Japan and india as part of 'the West' when it suits them

[Sir Winston Churchill]

Of course, because everything you heard from Michael Moore is an absolute truth.

Aside from Bowling for Columbine I haven't heard a word from him, and that work was about gun control.

Be wary of what you assume, if you take issue with what I've said by all means express that in point or question form, but do not try and simply throw debate to the wind by telling me who I listened to to come to the conclusion I did, since you apparently watch me through my window at all times for what I watch. Did you enjoy Titanic or could you not see through the tears, might I ask?