Roman soliders underpowered?

[ShotgunEd]

The attack values of the romans seems far too low. I don't think I've found a unit that a unit of hastatai or principes can defeat on the campaign map. Sure they can hold the line a short while but since they rarely kill any enemies a loss is inevitable, unless you can quickly outflank your opponent with cavalry or skirmishers.

Perhaps this is how the romans won battles but I'd always assumed the killing power of a roman army was in it's infantry not it's auxillaries?

Am I missing something?

[Grand Duke Vytautas]

yep, i agree with you shotguned , their stats could be improved a little since roman hastati/pricepes/legionairres as you say were the real killers in the roman army, auxillaries such as archers, spearmen and cavalry only played the supporting role for legionairres. Romans weren't fighting always as defensive as greeks (cuz manipulars were a dark force in themselves) Of course romans won their battles cuz of discipline/order/superb tactics and formations and such but I think individually barbarians probably (not sure though) were stronger warriors at least in early roman republic period, of course later legionairre cohorts owned/pwned all both individually and strategically. Cheers :wink:

[stu3216]

ya i upped the attack attributes a little for the pricepes and triarii. not hastati cause they did just suck.
and i made the post marian units a little better

[Spajjder]

actually barbarians where much bigger taller and stronger than romans mostly, I dont remember who it was but some roman said that the germans they met where all 2 m and threw their spears insanely long. BUT I agree that it's weird when soldiers throw slashes and hits at enemies al the time without anything happening. things would look better with more hitpoints for units, aka they look wounded of some sort, it just looks weird when a whole unit of hastati stands and hits at the barbarian general in the air without anything happening.

[ShotgunEd]

I have also increased the attack values of the roman infantry but I'm not used to balancing the unit costs etc. I'm only editing the text files directly as I don't have a working editor (the LORDZ one won't allow the game to start), suppose I'll keep looking.

Has anyone come up with a nice way to improve the attack but keep the units balanced? I'd be interested to know what people have done with the Praetorian and Urban cohorts as well. I ended up reducing their attack to 2 and increasing their armour and defence skill slightly thus turning them into a sort of city guard.

[Necromancer]

Yes, some of the Roman units are seriously underpowered. I raised the auxilia's attack up to 9 because they were just as tough and deadly as legionaries, I also gave the archer auxilia a bit of a face-lift as well, I upgraded their melee attack to 9, ranged attack to 10 and defense up to 12, most of the archers that imperial rome recruited were from either syria or the steppes where archers were the dominant force, so I felt justified to give the archer auxilia such radical stats, because aside from their life-long training with the bow, they were trained by the romans to fight effectively in melee, and these men were also highly valued so they were given the best chain-mail available.
With ALL of the roman units I gave them all good morale and gave them good stamina (aside from those that already had it, or better) and I gave praetorians (including cavalry and urbans) "frightens_infantry" and "command" attributes, praetorians were feared because of their love of bloodshed and they were originally the ultimate killing machines of rome (before they became fat dumb and lazy) and were viewed as heroes.

I gave all imperial roman units the "very_hardy" attribute. These guys were the toughest troops in the world at the time. Roman legions could march 14 miles in one day and manage to set up huge encampments at night. So I feel it's rather obvious that they should have been pumped-up a bit.

[Persian Horseman]

yeah, i noticed the low attack points.
i remember in RTW my histati could take on a warband unit on Medium difficulty.
but now, since histatis only have abt 160 units and low attack points, and gaul warbands have 240, my histati loses to them.
and i also think that their swordmen became a lot stronger, right?
i was owning the gauls with my 7 star faction leader so i got greedy.
i sent 4 units of histati against 1 warband and 1 swordmen.no generals. my lost the battle. in RTW i would have won. but in DM i lost. not complaining, just sth i noticed. but i like the challenge. so i have no trouble with it. but i think another reason for my lose is that, my captain died within 3 sec of engagement. i guess he got stuck among the enemy.

[DARTH VADER]

Since this have been written before...Romans are NOT underpowered. Do not look at stats in a linear way.
I will do a little seminar...

type roman hastati
dictionary roman_hastati ; Hastati
category infantry
class light
voice_type Light_1
soldier roman_hastati, 42, 0, 0.45
mount_effect horse -18, chariot -25, camel -18, elephant -50
attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, can_sap, hardy
formation 1, 2, 0.7, 1.5, 10, square, shield_wall
stat_health 1, 0
stat_pri 11, 2, pilum, 35, 2, thrown, blade, piercing, spear, 0 ,1
stat_pri_attr prec, thrown ap
stat_sec 5, 2, no, 0, 0, melee, blade, piercing, sword, 0 ,0.78
stat_sec_attr area, light_spear, spear_bonus_10, ap
stat_pri_armour 8, 8, 7, leather
stat_sec_armour 0, 1, flesh
stat_heat 3
stat_ground 0, 0, 0, 0
stat_mental 13, normal, trained
stat_charge_dist 40
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 440, 190, 50, 70, 440
ownership roman

The bold stats are very unique.
By giving spear bonus to romans they gain pushing ability to disrupt enemy forces and withstand multiple attacks.
(I have carefully balanced the anti-cavalry of spear by giving negative values to mount effect, so as not to become a powerful anticavalry unit.)

Their gladius are blades and have fatality factor of 0.78, the highest in DarthMod.
Also they have armour piercing ability.
Their mass is high for even more penetration ability.
The area effect gives them control of a wide sphere around them.

Should they get it all?

As the game progresses, the legions get these benefits more increasingly to win the other evolved faction units.
In early eras the roman units should be not too powerful so as not to take all lands with autocalc.

If you use romans with combinations of "guard mode" + pila charge + maneuver =win in most cases.
If you use romans statically + use all pilas in first melee = not beneficiary

They are uniquely powerful in DarthMod ...I believe not in any other mod, have they so unique balance. They deserve it.
For example confront naked ferocious barbarians (who have very good attacks) but not with straight tactics.
Hold them in place while some maniples pila charge a weak flank.
So many casualties in a few secs will rout any army.
Barbarians can win only by charging upfront.
Romans must think and exploit weaknesses.

[toy soldier]

thats why i like darthmod

[Pietrak]

people, don't make Romans some INSTAGIB unit, because you must think in order to win with Romans. in Darthmod you can't go get a cup of coffe during battle as you could in Vanilla

[Dark_MadMax]

Underpowered? You guys gotta be joking... They are still very powerful, though imho better balanced then in vanilla. -Hastati are significantly weaker , but don't rely on them to hold fronts (use them in quick maneuvers). Prinicipes on the other hand are very reliable (triarii even more). The fact that battle seem to last little bit longer in DM give you time to actually move troops in combat which makes for good flanks and "divide and conquer" tactics.


Playing on H/H had a very nasty battle with Carthage tonight - 2.500 vs 3000 on thier side (won with 2000 left) and then immediately after that had to fight 3800 + 1000 (was attacked while sieging). I had 2 units of merc archers ,2 warbands ,general and the rest were principes/hastati ( 1-2 chevrons ,one or 2 units were 3 chevrons) .
Carthage had elephants ,skirmishers, horse skirmishers, loads of light infantry and crapload of spearmens,2 units of cavalry .I thought I am dead for good . - I put my forces half hidden in the forset , archers on plain .Killed their first army which charged me from the back ,it had lots of spearmens and my 3 principes+hastati handled it with archers help and general's charge. Managed to kill numidians horses with general+warband, (warband got killed by their cavalry units though afterwards)and then thought I am done ,since the light infantry+skirmishers of the main horde was already charging in on flanks and elpehants were steaming for my front with endless sea of spears behind them .
Guess what? -With archer helps elephants got routed ,but came back again (couldn't chase em -had no units for that) phalanxes were pressing and grinding hard ,but prinicipes held off all battle long. It was long hard fight ,with a couple of lucky flanks with one fresh unit of hastati but in the end all of enemy army got routed . Core units fought tooth and nail too death holding tight -all the way trough first elephant charge and enduring grind afterwards (with occasional charge -ins by their cavalry) .

Granted didn't have much of an army left after that (most hastati were wiped out as well as majority of principes -total was 300 men left - out of 2000, with 100 of them being archers) . But what other infantry could have withstood that? Phalanxes? - but they wouldn't be able to maneuver and would be just grinded standing still. Had they folded once ,had they not been able to inflict damage to vastly superior forces ,had they not been able to move fast in order to exploit open flanks - had I have anything but roman infantry battle would be lost.

[ShotgunEd]

In my original post I did ask if I was missing something. Which I was =0. Thankyou for the response darth.

[ChErNoByl]

could you elaborate on the .78 thingy? At the top of export it says "Min delay between attacks (in 1/10th of a second)" as the last value in that category, suggesting that the .78 means they attack slower.

[Shaggy1973]

Nope, although that is the last explanation, if you cound along the line, it describes the second to last value. The last value, although not described, is chance to kill. So when a soldier scores a hit, it has a .78 chance to take a hitpoint.

I have been toying with a new stats system, in which the attack value for weapons are standardized. A gladius for example could be 6. Therefore hastati and principes both get an attack value of 6. However, hastati get a chance to kill of say 0.5 and principes get 0.6

The advantage of this is in the unbalancing effects of the general and experience. The old cliche are level 6 peasants with a good general, standing toe to toe with praetorians and winning, which i find unacceptable. This way, principes will always beat hastati due to their higher killing proficiency which never changes with exp or general's infleunce.

Also thinking about making missile troops all start at level 7, so they cant become too powerful and have say 4 units of slingers with bullets that go through concrete. May make for an easier to balance battle system.

[jw1089]

Since this have been written before...Romans are NOT underpowered. Do not look at stats in a linear way.
I will do a little seminar...

type roman hastati
dictionary roman_hastati ; Hastati
category infantry
class light
voice_type Light_1
soldier roman_hastati, 42, 0, 0.45
mount_effect horse -18, chariot -25, camel -18, elephant -50
attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, can_sap, hardy
formation 1, 2, 0.7, 1.5, 10, square, shield_wall
stat_health 1, 0
stat_pri 11, 2, pilum, 35, 2, thrown, blade, piercing, spear, 0 ,1
stat_pri_attr prec, thrown ap
stat_sec 5, 2, no, 0, 0, melee, blade, piercing, sword, 0 ,0.78
stat_sec_attr area, light_spear, spear_bonus_10, ap
stat_pri_armour 8, 8, 7, leather
stat_sec_armour 0, 1, flesh
stat_heat 3
stat_ground 0, 0, 0, 0
stat_mental 13, normal, trained
stat_charge_dist 40
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 440, 190, 50, 70, 440
ownership roman

so how does attack power matter then? does it have something to do against armor rating?

[marvius]

Romans Never underpowered its just a matter of using them wisely in DM....

[wipeout140]

Romans Never underpowered its just a matter of using them wisely in DM....

Like most things.........

[DARTH VADER]

In DM_8.0 they get more morale and critical hit ability...There is a new enhanced balance system that needed this alteration

[kammm]

Hello guys.

First i must say i really liked the AI improvements in the DarthMod 8.0, and it really gave me a reason to keep playing single-player RTW! The normal AI is completely retarded and does not give any challange, unless you are visually impaired.

But theres something i must say, after losing some custom battles against the germans(in VH with 15.000 denari, flat map setup, me as SPQR) and dont even understanding how i lost it, i came up with some tests.

PS: Im at work right now, so i can be missing some values and names slightly.

1st Test:

One Legionary 1st Cohort unit(1820 denari) against an German Choosen Axeman unit(680 denari)

Method: Both units charged each other.

Outcome: The Axeman just massacred my Legions without any difficult, kinda weird for a 3x more expensive unit .

2nd Test:

Same as above

Method: Ordered my legions to fully use their missiles before engaging.

Outcome: Victory with some loses, but indeed it was a major victory.

So my point is, WTF with the price of ONE First Legionary Cohort you can buy like 3 chosen axeman warbands, i even refuse to make the test, it would be a total and pointless massacre.

So i tought of something, "ah perhaps theyre weak against cavalary and extra strong against infantry"! And i did another test:

3rd Test:

One Legionary Cavalary Unit(800 or so denari) against an an German Choosen Axeman unit(680 or so denari)

Method: Frontal Cavalary Charge.

Result: My cavalary was massacred without mercy.

Then i tought "This must be a balance bug, i will try with a different unit"

4th Test:

One Legionary 1st Cohort unit(1820 denari) against a Galic Choosen Swordsmen unit(680 denari)

Method: Both units charged each other.

Outcome: The Swordesmen won easily.

Well, this post is getting tiring, i came over with 3 more bazillion tests, using diff formation/units/situations, that came to the final conclusion:

Roman Legionarys/Cavalary suck against barbarian infantry, they are EXPENSIVE and WEAK(except for the missile charge wich is deadly).

The only way to win a battle is to use Auxilias and Cavalary and outflank the enemy, but wait, how can i expect to do this with much less units on the field(Due to the megalomaniacal price). Keep in mind that i tested the BEST of roman army against the BEST of the barbarian armies, dont even bothered to test Hastati/Principles/Normal Legionary Cohort x Choosen Axemen situation.

Before calling me a noob, retard or something, go and make the same tests, i really think that something is missing or broken in this mod.

GJ with the AI and Models btw, you should work in the dev team of Medieval Total War 2 and teach those fags how to make the AI a decent challenge.

PS: Im Brazilian and im sorry for any writing mistakes, my english sucks i know.

[wipeout140]

Kammm Thank you for excellent post and tests also welcome to TWC. But I must say as all tests were based on Very Hard, And CA gave the AI massive moral and attack bonuses which we can not edit as it is hardcoded. Meaning Legionary 1st Cohort unit can get beaten by Gallic Chosen Swordsmen unit not because of mod or your playing style but because of CA put the massive bonus of moral and attack into the original RTW to make Very Hard, Very Hard

Summary Very Hard is biased to AI. Cheats likes anything also Very Hard in the campaign it gets 10,000 denerii each turn.