Sengoku Jidai, original STW2 still the best IMHO

[Ecthelion]

Not referring to the game as a whole, Rise/Fall of the Samurai both have gameplay design elements that are real improvements over the original STW2.

I'm talking about the period, and the combat it entails.

Gunpowder armies alone are no fun, cold steel armies alone are also no fun. It's striking that balance at the period in history where gunpowder becomes more than just a morale weapon, but is still not able to stand up against cold steel by itself just yet.

In Western Europe this is the period of "pike and shot", in Japan, this is the Sengoku Jidai.

In Rise of the Samurai, you really only have 4 elements in army, the foot and horse melee/range. That's it.

In Fall of the Samurai, it's breech loading rifles/steel howitzers and gatling guns. Otherwise known as the age of "rails and rifles". All the other "Traditional" units are basically obsolete.

If only CA would make a DLC that has the new features, campaign map of FotS and push it back to the period of Sengoku Jidai, that would be nice.

[Erwin Rommel]

Yes, coz naval bombardments where essential during the Battle of Nagashino.

[Emilio Aguinaldo]

Yes, coz naval bombardments where essential during the Battle of Nagashino.

I think you mean Nagashima...

[♘Top Hat Zebra]

I've never really been interested in the Pike and Shot era.

[bbad89]

Go ahead, put a few Katana kachi against line inf. The line inf will get slaughtered. It's really hard to say melee is useless when ever after you get put up against highly advanced units, a flanking samurai will nearly always slaughter them.

[Prnn]

Go ahead, put a few Katana kachi against line inf. The line inf will get slaughtered. It's really hard to say melee is useless when ever after you get put up against highly advanced units, a flanking samurai will nearly always slaughter them.

Not to sound condescending, but you are quite simply wrong.
As soon as a clan achieves "Kneeling fire" traditional units can no longer touch you.
Your flanking is useless unless the enemy commander is the AI or asleep, and the constant assault of gunfire will reduce the Katana Kaichi to a level where they can be taken out by Levy Infantry in melee.

Granted if you DO manage to catch infantry off-guard, without letting them fire a shot, you will cut them down in droves.
And traditional units are certainly useful in the beginning of the campaign, but there is a reason that swords went out of fashion.

[Lazarus]

Not to sound condescending, but you are quite simply wrong.
As soon as a clan achieves "Kneeling fire" traditional units can no longer touch you.
Your flanking is useless unless the enemy commander is the AI or asleep, and the constant assault of gunfire will reduce the Katana Kaichi to a level where they can be taken out by Levy Infantry in melee.

Granted if you DO manage to catch infantry off-guard, without letting them fire a shot, you will cut them down in droves.
And traditional units are certainly useful in the beginning of the campaign, but there is a reason that swords went out of fashion.

I'm about to blow your mind.

Hills

Seriously though, even with kneel fire, guns are still able to be countered by melee, especially if you bring a Bow Kachi or two, maybe some Carbine cav.

[Prnn]

I'm about to blow your mind.

Hills

Seriously though, even with kneel fire, guns are still able to be countered by melee, especially if you bring a Bow Kachi or two, maybe some Carbine cav.

My mind remains unblown.
Unless you get the hilliest forest in the entire world infantry will still get their volley off.
That is off course assuming that the gun player isn't smart enough to position his troops even remotely reasonably.
Melee infantry is, to put it in words, pathetic compared to the might of the gun, and are only good at keeping things occupied while you deploy more gun.

[rob-a-dogg]

Go ahead, put a few Katana kachi against line inf. The line inf will get slaughtered. It's really hard to say melee is useless when ever after you get put up against highly advanced units, a flanking samurai will nearly always slaughter them.

Unit size plays a big role in unit effectiveness. Guns are more effective on smaller sizes (as greater % of unit can fire at once)

[Ferdiad]

Unit size plays a big role in unit effectiveness. Guns are more effective on smaller sizes (as greater % of unit can fire at once)

Thats why you thin your lines to allow more men to fire.

[Ecthelion]

Unit size plays a big role in unit effectiveness. Guns are more effective on smaller sizes (as greater % of unit can fire at once)

This is a VERY good point actually.

Getting everyone in a firing line to have LOS on an enemy formation is the crux of the melee vs. ranged debate.

Terrain plays a role, but in any map, there are always areas where it favors one form of attack over another, so having a smaller army overall means that you can take advantage of these features.

Also it's easier to maneuver a shorter firing line...

[♘Top Hat Zebra]

It actually seems like FotS is MORE like the Pike and Shot era than the Sengoku campaign.

[doorknobdeity]

Yeah, I really would be interested in a mod that ports some of the design sensibilities of the expansions into the Sengoku campaign.

[♘Top Hat Zebra]

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=1841


This is the closest thing I can think of.


Give it a shot. It's way better than Vanilla.


(THIS POST IS ERWIN ROMMEL APPROVED)

[MJWilliams]

If only CA would make a DLC that has the new features, campaign map of FotS and push it back to the period of Sengoku Jidai, that would be nice.

This would be great. Like yourself I'm more interested in Sengoku era weaponry and combat, seeing them improve the map and agents, fame system etc of the Sengoku Jidai campaign would be very welcome

[Lazarus]

Of course using melee to kill rifles is not going to be easy, like you said, there's a reason guns replaced swords...

But yes, using hilly terrain is an extremely viable tactic. As long as you harass your enemy just right (my favorite part of the game) you can goad him in to either going on the offensive (see: walking up that hill) or he can just sit there and take volley after volley after volley and have his line reduced to ineffective numbers.

[wrcromartie]

Of course using melee to kill rifles is not going to be easy, like you said, there's a reason guns replaced swords...

But yes, using hilly terrain is an extremely viable tactic. As long as you harass your enemy just right (my favorite part of the game) you can goad him in to either going on the offensive (see: walking up that hill) or he can just sit there and take volley after volley after volley and have his line reduced to ineffective numbers.

Key to beating guns with melee in my opinion is to be the defender & use trees + hills. One unit should bait the enemy infantry into a trap in the forest.

[♘Top Hat Zebra]

Also, naval bombardment. Someone made a guide about it.

[Humble Warrior]

I can adapt to the times. I have always preferred sword, spear melee and the ethos of it. I`m not a fan of more modern times because the `honour` if there was ever such a thing is gone. It`s just about destroying the other guy with the most devastating weapon without even seeing what he looked like.

However, I can adapt to the ethos of the 18th, 19th and 20the centuries if that`s what the warfare is about, if the game does it well enough. If I really hate a particular period (not a fan of modern present day conflicts) then I just won`t buy them.

[Felixlynch777]

^Was warfare really more honourable back then? In the end it boils down to the same thing. Civilian deaths and looting/sacking of cities was often worse than nowadays. There's honour in protecting your family, home and brothers in arms but I don't think it's changed in history. As I was told when I loaded up Fallout 1 in the winter of '97, war never changes.