Something I Think Shogun II Misses Out On

[Sir Winston Churchill]

Epicness.

For instance, wars are mild affairs at best the involve stacks smashing against each other from castle to castle, usually the castle battles are between the lackluster garrison and a huge stack.

Generals die every battle, entire armies destroyed every battle.

Where are the great rivalries? Takeda vs. Uesugi? Uesugi usually falls within a few turns. Pop. Done. No epic string of battles, strangles for power, etc., nothing. Uesugi himself will usually die within the first battle.

Don't know, random sleepless thoughts induced by watching Sengoku Basara and reading up random wiki files on Japanese history. Moving on...

[krisslanza]

I think it's something tough to emulate in the style of game Total War is. As soon as the player starts their game, history is thrown out the window since the game's historical accuracy ends when you start the game, after that "history" unfolds depending on what the AI does.

A problem with rivalries happening is the fact the Generals are on-field units that are very easy to kill. I know in some games that try to capture the idea of rivalries in history, such as Dynasty Warriors, the only real way to do it is to suspend the player's disbelief by allowing a defeated General to be able to retreat from the field anyway. For TW the only way I could see rivalries working would be to either remove the General as a unit, so he can't be killed, or allow the general to be "killed" but somehow escape anyway.

Or of course, have the AI play very cautiously with their general, but given the fact retreating units can die, even if they run off the map, not sure how useful that is...

[♘Top Hat Zebra]

I generally make my own rivalries.

Say, you know what would make it easier to have rivalries? Pre-battle duels.

But yeah. This is something I've wanted for a long time in TW games. But it really only started feeling like a missing feature when Shogun 2 came along.

[Lazarus]

I disagree krisslanza. Back in Medieval 2, when my Venetian Doge killed the Milanese Heir, it felt special because it had some real bearing on the AI - they wouldn't just spawn a new one to replace him. If I captured a general in battle and needed money (or was feeling particularly generous) I could release him to fight against me another day - it could be entirely in my head, but it felt like I was building some kind of relationship with him.

And that's the other thing - generals being too squishy. What is it with post Medieval 2 games and making my general out of jelly? The only thing that should be killing mounted generals are spears and guns. The only thing that should be killing dismounted generals are guns, heroes, and other generals. Everyone else should struggle to go toe to toe with a general - especially the likes of Takeda or Uesugi or some other big name.

It's an interesting problem - especially this whole "defeat the AI army once, you've got them on the ropes" deal. I remember back in my Med 2 days - playing as France, 10/10 times if I made a march through Germany my march would quickly be stalled and bogged down by heavy resistance, both in cities and on the field.

[Drtad]

It's an interesting problem - especially this whole "defeat the AI army once, you've got them on the ropes" deal. I remember back in my Med 2 days - playing as France, 10/10 times if I made a march through Germany my march would quickly be stalled and bogged down by heavy resistance, both in cities and on the field.

In Med 2 the AI always wandered a little and then laid down and died in my experience. Maybe I was unlucky.

At least there are some big battles now for me.

[♘Top Hat Zebra]

I disagree krisslanza. Back in Medieval 2, when my Venetian Doge killed the Milanese Heir, it felt special because it had some real bearing on the AI - they wouldn't just spawn a new one to replace him. If I captured a general in battle and needed money (or was feeling particularly generous) I could release him to fight against me another day - it could be entirely in my head, but it felt like I was building some kind of relationship with him.

And that's the other thing - generals being too squishy. What is it with post Medieval 2 games and making my general out of jelly? The only thing that should be killing mounted generals are spears and guns. The only thing that should be killing dismounted generals are guns, heroes, and other generals. Everyone else should struggle to go toe to toe with a general - especially the likes of Takeda or Uesugi or some other big name.

It's an interesting problem - especially this whole "defeat the AI army once, you've got them on the ropes" deal. I remember back in my Med 2 days - playing as France, 10/10 times if I made a march through Germany my march would quickly be stalled and bogged down by heavy resistance, both in cities and on the field.

I DO miss how hard generals were to kill in Rome and Medieval. That really helped add Character to them, because you could actually use them in battle. It also helped that they felt more like people, and not just robots that I churned out of a factory. (AKA: RPG generals.)

Also, we realllllllllly need that prisoner system back. Or even a better one. Im really tired of murdering an entire routing army.


As to the slow military campaigns in M2TW, I think it helped that you had to build seige equipment, or bring your own, before assualting the settlement.

[krisslanza]

I disagree krisslanza. Back in Medieval 2, when my Venetian Doge killed the Milanese Heir, it felt special because it had some real bearing on the AI - they wouldn't just spawn a new one to replace him. If I captured a general in battle and needed money (or was feeling particularly generous) I could release him to fight against me another day - it could be entirely in my head, but it felt like I was building some kind of relationship with him.

And that's the other thing - generals being too squishy. What is it with post Medieval 2 games and making my general out of jelly? The only thing that should be killing mounted generals are spears and guns. The only thing that should be killing dismounted generals are guns, heroes, and other generals. Everyone else should struggle to go toe to toe with a general - especially the likes of Takeda or Uesugi or some other big name.

It's an interesting problem - especially this whole "defeat the AI army once, you've got them on the ropes" deal. I remember back in my Med 2 days - playing as France, 10/10 times if I made a march through Germany my march would quickly be stalled and bogged down by heavy resistance, both in cities and on the field.

To be fair, Medieval 2 generals were basically walking tanks. Particularly with enough traits, or whatever-you-call the other things, the general and his bodyguard could end up with over 6 or 8HP. When the average unit has 1 and your best have 2... thats pretty insane.

Although I agree, Shogun 2 generals incredibly squishy, but I think this also stems from the fact Shogun 2, and ROTS, both have a lot of spear units which will just rip your general apart. In FOTS? Guns, with their armor piercing, will slaughter your general. In M2TW, true there was spears, but you had a lot of choices in swords and other things as well.

Not that I'm fond of M2TW's units, a lot of them were junk, and it seemed the "better" troops weren't just better... they just cost more, but got killed by junk units anyway. I played a bit of RTW, and I do recall the generals were pretty tough then too, but not nearly as much as M2TW ones.

[Prnn]

I disagree krisslanza. Back in Medieval 2, when my Venetian Doge killed the Milanese Heir, it felt special because it had some real bearing on the AI - they wouldn't just spawn a new one to replace him. If I captured a general in battle and needed money (or was feeling particularly generous) I could release him to fight against me another day - it could be entirely in my head, but it felt like I was building some kind of relationship with him.

And that's the other thing - generals being too squishy. What is it with post Medieval 2 games and making my general out of jelly? The only thing that should be killing mounted generals are spears and guns. The only thing that should be killing dismounted generals are guns, heroes, and other generals. Everyone else should struggle to go toe to toe with a general - especially the likes of Takeda or Uesugi or some other big name.

It's an interesting problem - especially this whole "defeat the AI army once, you've got them on the ropes" deal. I remember back in my Med 2 days - playing as France, 10/10 times if I made a march through Germany my march would quickly be stalled and bogged down by heavy resistance, both in cities and on the field.

What are you talking about?
It's not just that I disagree with you on the subject and liability of Jedi generals, it's also that your description of wars in medieval 2 is compeltely contrary to my own experience.
Because I remember the AI putting all it's focus on a single suicidal rush on one of your towns, and leaving roughly 75% of their nation completely undefended. (And when I say undefended I mean undefended)
Unless they summoned their magic gold reserves from the ether and sent 7 full stacks at you every round, each one dying gruesomely because the AI does not make good tactical decisions. (Frontal assault on a spear wall? WHY THE HELL NOT?!)

I loved medieval 2, but let's not pretend that the newer games are not improvements.

[Lazarus]

What are you talking about?
It's not just that I disagree with you on the subject and liability of Jedi generals, it's also that your description of wars in medieval 2 is compeltely contrary to my own experience.
Because I remember the AI putting all it's focus on a single suicidal rush on one of your towns, and leaving roughly 75% of their nation completely undefended. (And when I say undefended I mean undefended)
Unless they summoned their magic gold reserves from the ether and sent 7 full stacks at you every round, each one dying gruesomely because the AI does not make good tactical decisions. (Frontal assault on a spear wall? WHY THE HELL NOT?!)

I loved medieval 2, but let's not pretend that the newer games are not improvements.

I'm not saying that S2 isn't an improvement. The BAI has had massive improvements, sure. But the Strategy Map is where the problem I described above is focused. As it stands in S2, I'm likely to face 1 stack per clan. Yes, that single stack wont charge head long on to the ends of my spears (well... sometimes) but the fact that it's one stack really negates any epicness that I feel in the battle. Because after that battle, it's over, aside from the token defense force generated by buildings.

Did you ever turn the difficulty up? If you did then I can't account for your different experience, but I can tell you that conquest for me from mid game onwards was a long and grueling process, and there were always many stacks, especially along Europes mid section

On the topic of Generals - At the very least they need to be returned to Med 2 strength, if not buffed. Unless the next game is like Med 2, where you can start spawning family trees with 100 people in each generation, then they need to be less squishy

[rekishiotaku]

I can't put my finger on it, but generals were some how more personal in MTW2 especially in Stainless steal. I think it was all the personal anidotes, and how some where half one race or another or how some were described as hating race A or B, how they became pious if they were in a holy city and the titles they aquired

[♘Top Hat Zebra]

I can't put my finger on it, but generals were some how more personal in MTW2 especially in Stainless steal. I think it was all the personal anidotes, and how some where half one race or another or how some were described as hating race A or B, how they became pious if they were in a holy city and the titles they aquired

It's because they weren't robots.

In Shogun 2, you get a general, and then you decide what friends he makes, what skills he has, and what items he carries.

In M2TW, they were people. They lived lives, and gained traits depending on what happened in the game.

They had titles, they had opinions, they had family.

But now it's just.... "Eh, another general. Time to grind him up to Stand & Fight."



@krisslanza: You're right. It wasn't perfect. But it still felt better than this current system. In my opinion, anyway.




@Erwin: I GOTS NO IDEA WHAT YER SAYIN. SPEAK AMERICAN.

[Erwin Rommel]

Epicness is no short supply when your playing Date Masamune backed by Katakura Kojiro with a full stack defending a level 1 fort against a stack of Naoe Kanetsugu, realizing that losing Sendai means they cannot be stopped to go rampaging the last province of Iwate.

Reloaded it several times, then it occured to me to just sally out and NOT defend.

It was a sweet victory, more than 30 minutes of maneuver and maneuver from position to position, trying to goad the enemy to attack me in a rush.

Then after savoring that victory you realized that compared to your Date Clan and its 2 provinces, it'll be along way to go to defeat Naoe even if killing Kanetsugu coz he has 6 more regions.

And his ally the Sanada as well.

Then again this is the Sekigahara Campaign.

But still. CHECK OUT THE LET'S PLAY BY POINTMAN. You'll see his incessant rivalry between the Toyotomi and Otani.

[Erwin Rommel]

@Erwin: I GOTS NO IDEA WHAT YER SAYIN. SPEAK AMERICAN.

S2 campaigns involving the first dozen turns are epic as always especially when your fighting for your survival. Its compounded when you have historical characters doing the fighting in interesting ways, when AFAIK Date Masamune never fought Naoe Kanetsugu.

Sure its borne out of a mod, still, EPIC rivalries always comes in S2.

For example, Pointman's "obession" with the Otani.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUyIpBtOXoU

[Lazarus]

It's not just the spear units though. Even when dismounted, the S2 generals are rather squishy. In a keep (so we're assuming that the enemy wont route) Generals have a tough time killing pretty much anything in a 1 v 1.

Edit: It's true, I have developed one or two rivlaries during my S2 campaign, but that's over 700 hours for far too few rivalries (I had to actively defend Takeda as Uesugi on a hard campaign just so that he would be the last Daimyo that I would kill)

[♘Top Hat Zebra]

If I find an enemy general who is 10 stars, I'll keep him alive just so I can RP.


I actually DO wish there was a chance the enemy general (Or your own) would get wounded and escape, rather thanjust die every single time.

(Unless you crush the entire army. THEN he should die. Or get captured, preferably.)

I think this would be a pretty good addition to the TW series.

[Lazarus]

I imagine that having a chance that they would get injured would lead to hilarious situations, like in NTW where Napoleon would eat canon only to be better a couple of weeks later, or like in MP, where you can take a No-Dachi to the throat and receive "a terrible injury and must withdraw!"

Still, that's the best solution so far - and there's nothing wrong with a little bit of comedy

[♘Top Hat Zebra]

Look at Mount and Blade!


*Takes crossbow bolt to face six times*


*Gets captured by the enemy, escapes a few hours later.*

[Prnn]

I played on the highest or second highest difficulty depending on nation, and I can safely say that you're wrong.
The enemies main tactic was generating vast amounts of troops from the ether and sending them at you in a suicidal rush and then leave the entirety of their base undefended.
Shogun 2 will sometimes even have pincer manoeuvres and multi-faceted offences.

No, they should not be returned to Med 2 strength because that was absolutely ridiculous.
One man should not be able to charge an army of a thousand and win.

[Lazarus]

I played on the highest or second highest difficulty depending on nation, and I can safely say that you're wrong. my experience was different from yours.

Fixed.

No, they should not be returned to Med 2 strength because that was absolutely ridiculous.
One man should not be able to charge an army of a thousand and win.

This one is an opinion thing. I like my Generals to be epic meat grinders. I can understand why some people dont enjoy that, so fair enough.

[Prnn]

No.

Not different experiences, you're claiming something that simply does not happen.
Medieval 2's AI's sole tactic for conquest was spamming stacks in single file, their sole method of defence was those doom stacks not being deployed.