OFFICIAL: WIP SUBMOD - Imperial Splendour 2.2.1b - State, Regimental and Naval Flags

[wangrin]

Yes, I know
But as Flikitos decide to add early units to IS beta instead of SYW ones, I have had to create a complete 3d models roster for French and English.
I'm working on the last early unit, the French "Fusilier de Montange", then I will work again on SYW French and English units.

I must said that I'm eager to see the NPI cavalry pack but I need Flikitos help to create textures, he is better and faster than me to do this.
All the problem with those textures is that we have to create them more or less entirely from scratch.

[Skillreaver]

I've rework the Polish regimental flag according to this picture :


Here is the first result :


Orzel_Bialy :


Possible Augustus II royal monogram :

I think that the regimental flag is very good - well done Here's some pics of Polish emblems - I know that's a late period of the 18th century. Precisely it's Stanisław August Poniatowski reign [1764-1795] as a King of Poland but I think it can be useful.

[079rtfgkljt90rgio]

So any news? I think we've already made quite a large number of flags. But so many left to do...
I hope I will have some free time this summer to continue with Herr Doctor. We could at least made a first 'pack' for the flags we already made (correct size, clean the errors, improve them even more if we can...)

[wangrin]

No news for the moment.
I was busy with models and I've had problems with my main computer.

If you have some time, could you work on some minor factions : Ireland, Scotland, Great Britain (republic, based on Cromwell era if possible).

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I think we will have a problem with Hospitalers flag (Knights of St John).
Their "faction" flag was very similar to Savoy one. The only difference was that the white cross was thiner for Hospitalers compared to Savoy flag.



EDIT 2012-07-18 : Possible Republican regimental flags for Great Britain
New Army standard (XVIIth century)


Parliamentary - Fleetwood's regiment


Parliamentary

maybe with a motto like "Vestigia Nulla Retrorsum" ?

[wangrin]

UPDATE : Major and Minor factions flags




UNITED STATES OF AMERICA :

• add Republic faction flag
• add Republic regimental flag
• add Republic naval flag

Those flags are post-AWI.


AWI naval ensign (not use in I.S)


NAPLES :

• replace the naval ensign with the white one, according to 132eRI researches
• add Repubblica Partenopea regimental flag (source : LAS TROPAS NAPOLITANAS, (1) de la colección de M.Henri y Claude ACHARD

KNIGHTS OF ST JOHN

• add regimental flag
• add naval ensign

COURLAND :

• add faction flag
• add naval ensign (need a better flag)

GREAT BRITAIN :

• add Republic faction flag
• add Republic's regimental flag (based on Parliament and New Model Army flags from the English Revolutions)

DUTCH :

• add Dutch Republic faction flag (constitutional monarchy ?)
• add Dutch Republic naval ensign (constitutional monarchy ?)
• add Batavian Republic faction flag
• add_Batavian Republic naval Ensign

SPAIN :

• add republic regimental flag
• add republic naval ensign

PORTUGAL

• add Portugal monarchy flag
• add Portugal monarchy regimental flag

[IrishHitman]

Vexillologie militaire européenne
Drapeaux militaires européens 1700-1914

Great site.

[ErikBerg]

Nice update!
A few suggestions on the Swedish flags: the state flag shape is great, but the colours should be those of the naval flag. Light blue is a recent invention, it was decided upon some time in the 20th century.

Also, using 162eRI's work as base and with the help of Photoshop (that I've recently aquired thanks to a much-needed computer update) I managed to create a regimental colour.
The source of inspiration is a livfana in use between 1751-1771, seen here: http://www.digitaltmuseum.se/things/fana/S-AM/AM.019667. This particular livfana is the closest I have gotten to a whole SYW colour, I've found a few others, but in poor condition. Both earlier and later colours I've found were more or less identical to this example.

[wangrin]

Kronoskaf describe liffana (colonel flag) like this :

The pikes used as staffs to carry the colours were always yellow. The Liffana had gold finials while the Kompanifana had steel finials. The colours measured 2.12 x 1.70 m. (1.81 x 1.33 m. as per Clifford).
Liffana (colonel flag): white field; centre device carried the crowned royal arms of Sweden flanked by 2 crowned golden lions; the corner of the first canton carried a golden Reich apple.
N.B.: for the liffana, Clifford adds a pedestal supporting the arms, the letters “AFRS” above the arms and 1 royal crown in the corner of each of the 3 remaining cantons.

1688-197 colonel's colour


I have 3 variants :

• n°1 without regimental symbol :
  
• n°2 with crowns :
  
• n°3 with crown and small coat of arms :
  

What one should I use ?
Personally, I prefer the n°2, but it's only a personal taste.

[ErikBerg]

Number three will do nicely!

Large center devices were a trait of early century colour makers, as they painted their colours, sometimes using intarsia for the features and devices. Later craftsmen used embroidery, which was a more expensive method, and the center devices "shrunk" accordingly.

[Y Brenin]

Some great work done on these flags, I must say. I'm particularly fond of your Italian ones, sono magnifici!
On the subject of the Swedish regimental flag, I believe the third variant is the most elegant of the bunch.

Now to the real subject of my post, to discuss the British republican flags. The logic in using New Model Army flags for the regimental banner is obvious, but comes with something of a drawback, i.e. the NMA is specifically English as opposed to British. It would seem very strange to see Scottish regiments marching under St. George's Cross (the flag of England) but not St. Andrew's Saltire (the flag of Scotland). A simple solution would be to change the canton from the English cross to the same Commonwealth flag used for the state flag. However, I have a suggestion. Cromwell's protectorate banner (source, "Flags" Eric Inglefield 1979) may be more appropriate:



The motto is that of the Commonwealth and reads "Pax quæritur bello", "Peace is sought through war". Elements that would need changing are the letters "O P" which stand for "Oliver Protector" and perhaps the crown could be changed to the parliamentary portcullis. Although not entirely relevant but still quite pleasing, the red/blue field at the back matches the colours of Paris flown at the beginning of the French Revolution.

As for the Republic's naval flags, paintings of the first Anglo-Dutch war give us some souces:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Once again, this gives us the issue of English rather than British flags and once again this can be remedied by changing the canton from St. George's Cross to the Commonwealth flag.

I hope you will find something useful in this. I shall now investigate what flags are appropriate for an independent Ireland, both monarchy and republic. Keep up the good work!

[wangrin]

Thanks for pictures.


Do you mean something like this ?





The reason why I keep St George cross is because this is an English Revolution.
Revolt/Revolution in Scotland lead to Scotts emerging as a faction.
Revolt/Revolution in Ireland lead to Irish emerging as a faction.
So, why not an English Revolution.

During English Civil War, Scotts were reluctant, if not against the Parliament.


For Monarchic Great Britain, we have to possible naval ensign :

• Red ensign :
  
  

  In 1707, Acts of Union, ratifying the Treaty of Union that had been agreed the previous year, were passed by the parliaments of England and Scotland, thereby uniting the Kingdom of Scotland with the Kingdom of England (which included the Principality of Wales) into a new state with the name Great Britain. This resulted in a new red ensign which placed the first Union Flag in the first quarter. The new design of the Red Ensign was proclaimed by Queen Anne, who indicated that it was to be used by both the navy and ships owned by "our loving subjects." This was the flag that flew over the thirteen American colonies before the American Revolution and was a precursor to the flag of the United States.
  Wikipedia

• White ensign :
  
  

  The first recognisable White Ensign appears to have been in use during the 16th century, consisting of a white field with a broad St George's cross, and a second St. George's cross in the canton. By 1630 the white ensign consisted of simply a white field, with a small St George's cross in the canton, which was consistent with the red and blue ensigns of the time. In 1707, the St. George's cross was reintroduced to the flag as a whole, though not as broad as before, and the Union Flag was placed in the canton. There was also a version of this flag without the overall St George's cross, which appears to have been for use in home waters only, though this flag appears to have fallen out of use by 1720.
  Wikipedia

[Y Brenin]

That's exactly what I meant, great work.

I understand the reasoning behind the "English Revolution", as that is the region that must revolt in game, but unfortunately the faction name remains "Great Britain". I would love England to be an emergent faction if either the English revolt or Scotland goes independent but sadly the game engine limits us there. Also, as the state flag represents the Scots I feel the regimental and naval should also.

As for Scotland's affiliations during the Wars of the Three Kingdoms, they are little complex as you noted. Although the Covenanters defeated the Scottish Royalists and handed the Charles I over to the English Parliament they later changed their minds, backing Charles II claim to the throne. This led to Cromwell's invasion of Scotland and the incorporation of that county into the Commonwealth.
Of course, I realise this is all arbitrary when discussing an possible English republican movement in the 18th Century but I thinks it's worth a mention none-the-less.

As we are basing our hypothetical republic on Cromwell's Commonwealth I assume we are basing the hypothetical revolution on the Civil War, i.e. a struggle between Parliament and the King. From 1707 the Parliament in London was British with Scottish MPs in attendance, so I reason that any republic they founded would feel they had claim over Scotland. Whether or not they actually have control north of the border is another question, but I think they would feel they had rightful authority.

As for your monarchy ensigns, I personally prefer the white one, mainly from personal taste but also because it helps differentiate the republic one.

[wangrin]

I'm searching for Dutch colonel flags from WSS (War of Spanish Succession), SYW (Seven Years' War) and FRW (French Revolutionary Wars).

[Y Brenin]

During the course of the finding the following details I've found some Dutch flags from the Williamite War in Ireland but none from those you have requested. The Netherlands weren't even an official participant in the Seven Years War so that may be a difficult era. I'll see what I can dig up later. In the meantime, here are the results of the rest of my investigations into the flags of the Isles.

Ireland

Republic

Ah, the fine emerald land of my ancestors (or at least some of my ancestors, I'm a mongrel ) and a constant thorn in side of the British Crown. It seems those Paddies just wouldn't lie down and accept foreign rule. Finding historical flags for their possible republic is nice and easy as we just have to look to the ill-fated 1798 rebellion led by the United Irishmen. Their party flag is one used by Irish nationalists since the 17th Century and is appropriate not just for the state flag but also for the naval jack as the modern Republic of Ireland uses a very similar flag for their own navy.

United Irishmen Flag

The rebel militias themselves flew quite the variation of flags as you may expect from a popular uprising, but most seemed to incorporate above banner and very nearly all were green. Below is a selection, I'm particularly fond of Father Michael Murphy's "Liberty or Death" design. Note that "bra" is actually a mistake, but one genuinely made by the semi-literate commoners of the time. Whether these are appropriate for a post-revolution professional army is up to you.

Rebel war flags

Monarchy

Ireland was of course a separate Kingdom from Great Britain until 1801, albeit with the same monarch and firmly under British control, and was represented by St Patrick's Saltire.

St Patrick's Saltire

The use of this flag, however, is not recommended. St Patrick's Saltire was designed by the British in the 17th Century and is widely reviled by the Irish to this day as a symbol of British dominion over Ireland, it's design is even a reference to England's St George's Cross. The royal banner is perhaps a more appropriate choice, being used not only by the British monarchy but also having it's origin in the legends of the old High Kings of Ireland and being the basis of the modern President of Ireland's standard.

Royal Standard of Ireland

When it comes to monarchist regimental flags I thought it would be most logical to look at those flown by Irish Jacobites during the Williamite War in Ireland. The same Irish Brigades that fought for James II fled to France and entered the French service after his defeat and continued to use the same flags.

Irish Jacobite flags

As for the naval flag, you're going to have to use your imagination there, although the state flag would do just fine.

Coming soon to a thread near you - the Scots.

[wangrin]

IRELAND :

• Republic Faction Flag :
  (1) (2) (3)
• Republic Regimental Flag :
  (2) (3)
• Republic Naval Ensign :
  (1)

• Monarchy Faction flag :
  (1) (2)
  (1) is based on Lordship of Ireland coat of arms
  (2] is based on Kingdom of Ireland coat of arms
• Monarchy Regimental Flag :
  (1) (2)
• Monarchy Naval Ensign :

What could be the House of Ireland (what family ?)

[Louis XVI]

I'm searching for Dutch colonel flags from WSS (War of Spanish Succession), SYW (Seven Years' War) and FRW (French Revolutionary Wars).

I am dutch and found this site on military flags of the Netherlands.

http://www.collectie.legermuseum.nl/...n/i008305.html


I don't know if you are aware of the peculiar politics of the Dutch republic but the house of orange was almost without pauze the Stadholder(steward) of the Dutch republic. In ETW the first stadholder of orange gets replaced by some other guy after a few turns (which is very ahistorical but I understand it was hard to change for one nation). I also didnt like the monarchy flag of the Netherlands, It should have just been: orange-white-blue, not some annoying rainbow thing. The oranges became our royal family in 1813 but they were the obvious canditates for a dutch crown for centuries, the orangist motto during civil strife in the republic was "orange at the top" so it is only obvious to take this flag as the monarchy flag:

http://www.collectie.legermuseum.nl/...n/i008308.html

http://www.google.nl/search?q=prinse...nZLiwaMOqPs0M:



Or this one it looks much more monarchistic/orangist but since the Oranges became royals in the 19th century it isnt historically correct, but it would look good:

http://www.collectie.legermuseum.nl/...n/i008318.html

Edit: I just read that the orange-white-blue flag was used in battle by Dutch units in the 17th century and more importantly that the Red-white-blue flag wasn't used until 1796 when the French invaded and replaced the orange with red to make it similar to their own flag and to remove the obvious orangist hint.

[wangrin]

I found this on NYPL :

• 1740-1788 - Gardes regiments flags :
  
• 1748 :
  
• 1787 : Swiss guards company flag
  
• 1790 : Holland guards flag
  

So, I think the colonel flag was probably white with Orange's arms and some golden ornaments.

I don't know if you are aware of the peculiar politics of the Dutch republic but the house of orange was almost without pauze the Stadholder(steward) of the Dutch republic. In ETW the first stadholder of orange gets replaced by some other guy after a few turns (which is very ahistorical but I understand it was hard to change for one nation).

I think the "Dutch Republic" should be, in fact" a constitutional monarchy. So, we could use "Batavian Republic" as a "true" republic and "Kingdom of the Netherlands" as an absolute monarchy.
Of course, this is not completely historically accurate, but I think it's the "less worst" we can do with ETW.

[Louis XVI]

I think the "Dutch Republic" should be, in fact" a constitutional monarchy. So, we could use "Batavian Republic" as a "true" republic and "Kingdom of the Netherlands" as an absolute monarchy.
Of course, this is not completely historically accurate, but I think it's the "less worst" we can do with ETW.

Problably the best solution, we had a weird system in those days (if William of Orange wasn't murdered by the Spanish we would have probably made him king in the 17th century already).

If the colonels flag is historically accurate you should use it but it feels weird, never saw a white dutch flag, orange or red-white-blue feels better.

And about the kings of Ireland, maybe the O'Conor Don family, the last medieval Irish king before the English was of this dynasty and seeing that the family still exist today and actually uses the title High King of Ireland.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O%27Conor_Don

[wangrin]

The orange and blue flag is a modern one.


Exemple of Netherland regimental flag during Napoleonic wars :


Some other examples here :

• Spanish Succession War : Army of the United Provinces (Holland)
• Napoleonic Wars - Kingdom of Netherland : Kingdom of Holland and the United Provinces
• Napoleonic Wars - Batavian Republic : Batavian Republic. Spanish Netherlands 1794 - 1806
• Napoleonic Wars - Batavian Republic and United Provinces : The Netherlands

A very good post from : Realistic Flag Set v1.2 - Massive Expansion: All Major Powers On All Levels

UPDATE 2012-08-18 : flag1, flag2, flag3 and flag4 (rebels)

[wangrin]

Scotland :

• faction flag :
  
• regimental flag (o'Gilvy or Appin Clan)
  or
• naval ensign :