Education: The Issue of Class Division

[♖The Balkan Sobranie♖]

Do you believe it to be right that children should be subjected to class division due to the types of school that they attend?

Many countries are built upon divisions, not of race or gender but of wealth and social class. In no country is it more evident than in the United Kingdom. The large majority of children in this country are educated through the State School system, whether this may be the elite Grammar schools or the less picky Comprehensives. These schools are mainly filled with the children of the Lower-Middle Classes and the Working Classes.

For the Upper-Middle Classes and the Upper Classes there are alternatives. They all group together under the category of Independent Schools. Parents who can afford the fees may send their children there to receive the best education possible. The most prestigious of these schools are the 'Public Schools' (do not be confused by their name, they are not state funded). These schools are different to other private schools and are members of the Headmasters' Conference. Many of the crème de la crème, the bankers, the politicians, the officers in the Armed Forces etcetera all received a Public School education. However many from the Left of the political spectrum have criticised Private Education as elitist and segregating society.

H. Tawney called it 'the hereditary curse upon English education', Anthony Crosland 'the strongest remaining bastion of class privilege', Neil Kinnock 'the very cement in the wall that divides British society'. No other country has anything quite like the British public school system, just as no other country has anything like the House of Lords or the House of Windsor. Elsewhere, people opt out of the state system—often in greater numbers than they do in Britain—in search of a particular type or philosophy of education, such as a Catholic school. Here, the dominant reason for going private is quite different: the pursuit, for one's children, of academic, social and career advantage. In effect, the public schools are the training grounds for the ruling classes: the top echelons of the civil service, the law, politics, the City. - Peter Wilby

I have been fortunate enough to have been educated at a fee-paying Public School and yes they do divide society however people who work hard and have the will power have the ability to break away from their poor backgrounds and it does not matter whether one has been to a private school or not. Take Maggie Thatcher for an example, she was the daughter of a Greengrocer yet she climbed the ladder against all the odds and became one of the best Prime Ministers that we have had in an awfully long time.

What type of school did you go to in your country, and what is your opinion on this issue?

[Claudius Gothicus]

Every modern country is divided around class and status, because you know... one of the great things of Liberalism was tearing apart the arbitrary nature of Nobility and blood inheritance, so we are left with a tasks and labor related hierarchy.

-No, bringing class division to the classroom is like the epitome of stratification and dysfunctionality.

-Yes, there's social classes.

-Yes they are derived from the Division of Knowledge and Labor.

-Yes, sometimes those ''classes'' can get into anthagonistic positions that bring strife, war, conflict etc.

-No, we don't need to combat the existence of ''class'' in the marxist sense but for efficiency, innovation and stability's sake we do need to make those classes ''flexible''.

If anything education should centralize curricula on basic knowledges for everyone and we should aim for a well funded public system that allows for anybody with ''the will'' to break the social barrier of class (wage+background).

[Ulyaoth]

There is nothing wrong with private schools. I went to private school all my life and it's a higher tier of education, plenty of poor kids were in them through scholarships and such, rich kids thrown out because they're morons. Still plenty of morons got through of course, but for the most part it is fine, they fail out of college and go into the family medical practice.

[Vizsla]

The public school system was invented to create people with cast iron self esteem who believed they had an absolute right to rule over other people in other parts of the world.
It worked brilliantly.
The Grammar school system was invented to allow poor but clever people to do better in life.
It worked brilliantly.
The comprehensive school system was invented to bring everyone down to the same level.
It works exactly as advertised. It destroys life chances.

By giving opportunity to everyone Grammar schools destroyed the class system.
What we have now restricts the best education to those who can pay. In time it will recreate the class system. There is nothing much any government can do to fix this while commie trade unionists are in charge of the teaching profession.

[AqD]

By giving opportunity to everyone Grammar schools destroyed the class system.
What we have now restricts the best education to those who can pay. In time it will recreate the class system. There is nothing much any government can do to fix this while commie trade unionists are in charge of the teaching profession.

The Grammar school system just proved your theory false. No class system can destroy life chances, stupidity does. There isn't a single system that can give everyone a chance without destroying all chances.

[Vizsla]

The Grammar school system just proved your theory false. No class system can destroy life chances, stupidity does. There isn't a single system that can give everyone a chance without destroying all chances.

Before Grammar schools if you were born working class you had no chance of social or financial advancement.
Now (after grammar schools have been closed down), because smart people with a rubbish state education are screwed and rich people can pay to get their half brained scions into a good life, the class system is reasserting itself.
My grandparents were working class. My parents became middle class in grammar schools. I live in a society where most people self describe as middle class. If I send them to a good school my children will get middle class jobs. If I send them to a bad state school my children won’t get middle class jobs. They will become working class. As more and more people get stuck in lower paid jobs with no chance of advancement the concept of a true working class will reassert itself.


You are seeing this from a top down ‘what is best for society as a whole’ perspective. I am seeing this from a bottom up individual perspective. Both of us think the other’s perspective is unfair. No agreement is possible. The fundamental beliefs at the root of our philosophical approaches are mutually contradictory.

[AqD]

You are seeing this from a top down ‘what is best for society as a whole’ perspective. I am seeing this from a bottom up individual perspective. Both of us think the other’s perspective is unfair. No agreement is possible. The fundamental beliefs at the root of our philosophical approaches are mutually contradictory.

Personally I can't find it anything wrong. Since we have a complete failed system here, all schools suck. I haven't seen or heard any university here can be life-changing for students (PS: I dropped out).

[Claudius Gothicus]

Personally I can't find it anything wrong. Since we have a complete failed system here, all schools suck. I haven't seen or heard any university here can be life-changing for students (PS: I dropped out).

For that statement to be of any significance you would have to bring some hard evidence to the table, statistics to be more accurate.

[Big War Bird]

Just because most feed their kids McDonalds doesn't mean everyone must.

[King Gambrinus]

Simples. State schools for everyone.

[♖The Balkan Sobranie♖]

Simples. State schools for everyone.

What a typically liberal thing to say. I bet you read that damn Guardian newspaper, what?

[justicar5]

What a typically liberal thing to say. I bet you read that damn Guardian newspaper, what?

allow them to stream classes, as in have a class built around tested ability with movement between groups for working hard (or not as the case may be). That I have no problem with, testing for admission (like the grammars) that I object to before college and university level.

[cookiemonster]

i went to two private schools for my education because all the state schools around my area were completely rubbish, places where you were considered to have done well if you got a D in the English and maths, and got 5 GCSE's,
i agree with Big War Bird people should have the freedom to choose any school and there should a competition between schools, but not to the extent where schools deny places for pupils on the basis of how clever they are.
On the issue of Class division i do think the private schools cause issues, but the idea that it segregates class is absolute rubbish a mere smokescreen, work hard for a living and at school then you can do whatever you want, my parents were born in one of the poor area of the UK and through alot of hard work found the money to pay for a great education for their kids, and have a good life thats the lesson that people need not the idea that the left put into peoples heads that because somebody goes to school where they pay for they are naturally going to be segregated by those people

[Cesarz]

Simples. State schools for everyone.

That's not very fair though, is it?

[Rolling Thunder]

That's not very fair though, is it?

Life isn't, people need to get over it.

[Cesarz]

Life isn't, people need to get over it.

Well, I believe that if someone can pay for a higher rate education, they should be allowed to. Rather than being forced into a possible sub-standard state funded school.

[Shneckie]

I agree with above poster. ^

There is no reason to prevent parents who can afford to send their kids to private schools from doing so. If you can't afford it, then hey, happens. You still have the state funded schools to send your children to. Doesn't mean you should force others to do the same! Furthermore if you close private schools down then you are just putting extra strain on state education. Extra strain that they will not be able to cope with which just leads to a lower standard of education for everyone.

[Rolling Thunder]

Well, I believe that if someone can pay for a higher rate education, they should be allowed to. Rather than being forced into a possible sub-standard state funded school.

The problem is that a "fairness" argument is subjective: It's unfair to force people into state schools, it's also unfair that you get to pay your way to better education. Thus I dislike "fairness" arguments intensely, as they just boil down to rhetorical nothing.

So you wouldn't be proud if your child grew up to be a major player in Government?

In this government? I'd disown them.

[Treize]

It is quite wrong. As for the UK it is probably almost like a cultural thing so I find it a difficult thing to judge on.

As for my own country I would like to see them closed down. A teacher of mine had to do the 'second opinion' on exames of other schools. These included those kind of schools. In this country exams are made up of two parts, but count for 50%. So 1 + 1 =1. There is the central, state exam and there are the school exams that schools make and grade fully without outside interference. These kinds of schools give grades of around 8 or 9 for school exams so that there pupils pass even though their central exams are also a 4 or so. 4+9 makes 6.5 you see.

It is corruption of the worst kind. You literally BUY a diploma for your kids at €15000 or so a year. It is a total travesty of the entire educational system. It disgusts me.

Once I come to power I will close down these schools or turn them into normal schools. The quality of education will be the same for everybody, just like the grading process through strict controls on school exams. Wealth of the parent can never be a factor in education. Sure, you may give money to your children but you can never buy them into university while smarter, poorer children are left out.

[Thorn777]

It breads the right kind of corrupt people. Just look at what we do.