New to the mod, first impressions

**Spartan 666** · April 09, 2012, 02:08 PM

Hi, first of all congratulations to all those who have contributed in making this great mod, for years I kept playing greek\roman era or medieval mods, for some odd reasons the IB series always skipped away from my attention...and that's a shame!!!

Personally, the idea to make it "modular" is very smart. So, every player can easiliy choose what add ons to use, which campaign and which script, etc.

Now, to more "practical" concerns...I am playing with 1.2 (have there been any patches or hotfixes after that?), 355AD campaign with Julianus. I chose it because it's one of the greatest challenges I've seen in a RTW mod. The only real problem I found is not the religious unrest or the overwhelmin barbarian hordes, but the low quality of most Roman troops. I have thrown everything I had in Gaul to stop Alamanni and Franks, and while I was quite successful with the first, I was much less with the latter.

No difference if I use an Auxilia or a Comitatenses army, Frank units seem to be much more difficult to rout, even low-level units, surrounded that keep fighting. On the other hand, there are some Roman units that can't even make contact with the enemy because they rout almost instantly, such as Legio Ripenses; I know they are not Comitatenses or Palatinae, but they rout like peasants.

Then I've seen also Cataphractarii charging Frank archers and losing some 20-30 men before routing them...

I am playing with M\M difficulties.

Oh, one error...there's one Sagitarri unit (I think the Auxilia Palatinae, but not sure) that has a 5 shield value even if it has no shield!

No criticism at all, just wanted to find out if it's intentional and I have to get used to the mod..it's really impressive and well done!

**Diocle** · April 09, 2012, 02:33 PM

julianus will be much more exaustive about your questions, I'm only an old player of SAJ! But this behavior of the Roman troops is quite historical, in this age the training and morale of the Roman troops was lower than in the previous times, now the troops have to be lead by Generals or even by the Emperor himself to obtain good performances.
In the IV the Roman armies had to be lead from the front ranks, in this way Julianus saved the day at Strasbourg and was killed in His Persian expedition like Valens was killed at Adrianople! Sadly this is no more the age of the high morale high training Legions, this is the age in wich the Generals and the Warlords became very important in maintaining the troops' morale on the battlefield.
I find it quite annoying but very, very historical! It is a matter of learning the correct gameplay, SAJ is different from other RTW Mods, but more interesting exactly for the challange represented by its historical autenticity!

**Darkangel87** · April 10, 2012, 08:59 AM

Surely the Roman foot soldiers of the 4th century are no longer the killing machines of the 1st and 2nd century, but if you deploy them in "shield wall" formation, even limitanei are a serious problem for most enemy formations.
Regards Marcel

**julianus heraclius** · April 10, 2012, 04:58 PM

The limitanei were not as good as the field army troops, though if led well could still do a good job. Also upgrading them will assist. There are two types of limitanei; front rankers who are more heavily armed and have higher morale and the rear rankers who are less armed and have slightly lower morale.

Also, I have given the barbarian starting stacks some extra weapons/experience bonuses to ensure that the Romans do indeed get a hard time of it. This mod is not meant to be a cakewalk; the first few turns are meant to be as intense as you will find in any RTW/BI mod.

But, as others have shown you can regain the advantage but it takes time and good strategic and tactical skills. Just look at Knofoda's 361AD campaign. I myself have been playing the 355AD campaign over the last few months and am now finally getting the upper hand against Constantius II. It is 370AD and have taken Constantinople and Alexandria and am pushing into Asia Minor.

**Darkangel87** · April 11, 2012, 05:53 AM

My standard army to guard the borders and fight against the „Barbarians“ is a combination of three more or less historical legions:
- 1 General (Magister / Comes / Dux)
- 3 Equites Scutarii
- 3 Equites Promoti or Catafractarii
- 4 Heavy Infantry (Comitatenses) of the same legion
- 1 Comitatenses Lanciarii
- 2 Comitatenses Sagitarii
- 4 Auxilia Cohortes Limitanei or 4 Legio Ripenses
- 2 Sagitarii Milites
With such an army I never lost a battle as yet.
Regards Marcel

**Chelchal** · April 11, 2012, 12:55 PM

As Julianus Heraclius would put it, I totally Rolls Royce my armies. One tends to be a smaller, mobile force of heavy cavalry and missile cavalry, could for hammering smaller barbarian detachments, or those with little or no cavalry. These battles tend to be very, very time consuming, but the upside is that I take low casualties. The barbarians will scatter chasing down the sagitarii or candidati or what have you while someone else comes from behind, and pours javelins or arrows in the back or charges them.

After a few axe throwing units or farimanni get wiped out, the remaining barbarians start dropping morale and it gets easier (but no less time consuming.)

The other army will have just a couple of cav units means for flanking actions or chasing after routers. Otherwise, it's just heavy infantry and archers. Their purpose is to invite attack. I'll set up on a bridge or a mountain pass and just massacre whatever the Alemanni or Franks throw at me. If they don't want to attack, fine. They get shot to pieces by my archers.

I call it the "stack killer." The cavalry and archers tend to rack up a lot of experience this way. The infantry not so much, which is fine by me since it means they haven't had to do much fighting.

**Spartan 666** · April 11, 2012, 03:00 PM

Ok, I have begun to understand how to deal with those barbarians, thanks to your suggestions guys!

I actually found out that shield wall+guard position is quite effective also for low-level units, they keep the line enough to let the cavalry smash the enemy wings and take them from behind. Then I put all javelin throwers and archers behind the line infantry to pepper them down as much as possible. This way, and with sallies from besieged cities, I got to destroy some 6 Franks and 3 Alamanni stacks. But I don't have any funds to retrain my units and they still have a lot of men to use! Greatly challenging!

Auxilia and Ripenses units I use as expendable, I don't have funds to maintain them so I send them to fight against superior armies instead of just disbanding them. I don't like the troops situation at the beginning of the campaign, I hope in a distant year to have the funds to build proper armies...but now I have to deal with what's available!

As for the general situation, I have destroyed churces where they caused unrest among pagans, I have built mines and ports wherever possible and repaired the devastated cities in Gaul. Doing so I obviously ran out of money but when mines and ports where complete they quite helped in limiting my bankrupt. I got some little money when I conquered Campus Alemanni (it was casual, they left it undefended...I would have never have besieged it) and demolished everything. Of course it revolted back to Alemanni the next turn, but doesn't matter.

**Chelchal** · April 11, 2012, 03:35 PM

I never place my foot missile units in front of my main line. I always disable skirmish mode so they don't flee when the enemy approaches (why should they, when there's comitatenses and auxilia palatina protecting them) so they have a continuous stream of arrows pouring onto the enemy, especially into their rear ranks. If things get real bad, (almost never) I can throw them into the melee if I have to.

Typically I'll place my heavy infantry into a concave formation, with my general immediately behind the center of the line to lure the enemy. That way, they get raked by pila and darts before they reach the center of the line. I also tend to concentrate the archers behind my left flank. This makes them more effective since they are shooting into the right side of enemy, where they are not protected by their shields.

I don't like extended my line out for very long. I prefer my heavy infantry in shield walls with formations at least six deep, immediately adjacent for mutual support and the morale boost. If I see that the enemy is trying to flank me, I'll concentrate my archers against them and then hit them with cavalry when they get close.

The key to winning in the west is combined arms: a base of solid infantry to anchor the line; missile units to provide firepower and weaken the enemy (especially their cavalry, if they have any), and cavalry to maneuver against the enemy's weakpoints.

Here is why cavalry, even limited cavalry is crucial:

1) Good for running down enemy foot archers or light units. Thin the enemy before they reach your main line!
2) Great for hitting the enemy flank or rear when they engage your main line.
3) Missile cavalry can shoot on the move, always a huge plus! Always shoot into the enemy's rear or right flank (unless they don't have shields, in which case it doesn't matter.)
4) If the enemy doesn't have cavalry, you're cavalry gets decides when and where on the battlemap it feels like fighting. This puts the initiative in your hands!
5) Kill routers! There's nothing worse than seeing enemy routers rally and return to the battle. If you kill the general (who's an enemy family member and at least 85% of the enemy force) the survivors will disband. Don't just beat the enemy stack, annihilate it.

After a few turns of this, my archers tend to have multiple silver chevrons, and my cavalry have gold ones.

**Chelchal** · April 11, 2012, 03:51 PM

Of course, fighting against the Persians is a different story. Again, combined arms is key, but their cavalry and missile units are no joke so your casualties will of course be heavier. Tactically, I'm much more risk averse playing against them. Against the Germans, I kill off the lightest units (excepting hateful berserkers whom I try to turn into pincushions right away!) but with the Persians I try to kill their heavy cavalry and missile cavalry off first.

When fighting the Western barbarians, my casualties are low at the beginning, then spike when they hit my line, then drop off again as they get killed and rout.

With the Persians, my casualties spike right away as my foot archers get in a standoff with their missile cavalry, then again when I engage their heavy cav. Only after these two are dealt with, does my loss rate drop off.

You can beat the Persians with an inferior number of cavalry, but never let any kind of enemy have more missile units than you if you can help it.

**Chelchal** · April 11, 2012, 03:52 PM

Apologies, I posted the above twice!

**Spartan 666** · April 13, 2012, 01:41 PM

Thanks again for all these tips, this mod is so complex and radically different from what I've used to play until now I still am learning how to survive..

One question, where can those Invicti Iulianii units (the ones that Iulianus has at the beginning of the 355AD campaign) be retrained?

**julianus heraclius** · April 13, 2012, 05:59 PM

Originally Posted by Spartan 666

Thanks again for all these tips, this mod is so complex and radically different from what I've used to play until now I still am learning how to survive..

One question, where can those Invicti Iulianii units (the ones that Iulianus has at the beginning of the 355AD campaign) be retrained?

Well, they are actually recruited in Antioch, though as for retraining I would think that a city that recruits palatinae troops might be worth a try for retraining.

**Constantius** · April 13, 2012, 02:05 PM

+REP Chelchal your enthusiasm and clear enjoyment is contagious

Spartan 666Its not just the IB mods that are different, the fora are too. Many conversations and debates, posted by a great group of enthusiasts- some scholars some less so, but always informative. Hang around and join in, and be welcome

**Diocle** · April 13, 2012, 04:03 PM

...Constantius is a well cultured person but I do not like the use of the neuter plural 'Fora'!
IMO it is very unusual....but I could be wrong, anyway I prefer the use of singular 'Forum, -i', it sounds better, more normal!

**Spartan 666** · April 15, 2012, 12:36 PM

I checked it out, only recruitable in Antioch...so I made a little editing of EDB and made them recruitable also in Arleate!

I found out that latest nVidia drivers make the battle minimap mess up...black background, loading bars on top...using integrated graphic card there are no issues of this kind, but sometimes scrolling around the campaign map there are some "flashes"...the screen turns black and then back normal for a fraction of second. Surely not a mod-related issue.

More mod-related, are Ihatemonday's and vanilla soundmods incompatible and campaign-breaking? I used Ihatemonday's mod, then I switched to the vanilla one and the game crashed at the end of every battle. I reverted to the previous mod, and it crashed all the same. Is it related to those mods, or an ordinary post-battle CTD?

**julianus heraclius** · April 15, 2012, 04:37 PM

Originally Posted by Spartan 666

I found out that latest nVidia drivers make the battle minimap mess up...black background, loading bars on top...using integrated graphic card there are no issues of this kind, but sometimes scrolling around the campaign map there are some "flashes"...the screen turns black and then back normal for a fraction of second. Surely not a mod-related issue.

Not that I am aware.

More mod-related, are Ihatemonday's and vanilla soundmods incompatible and campaign-breaking? I used Ihatemonday's mod, then I switched to the vanilla one and the game crashed at the end of every battle. I reverted to the previous mod, and it crashed all the same. Is it related to those mods, or an ordinary post-battle CTD?

Make sure that you uninstall soundmod you are using before installing the one you want to use. This should avoid any CTDs.

**Spartan 666** · April 22, 2012, 09:05 AM

You were right, I must have messed something up myself...now I take care and can switch between CA's and Ihatemonday's sounds, and between CA's and RS's vegetation without troubles.

Well I have progressed a lot in my 355 campaign with Western Empire (4tpy, difficulty M\M). I wiped out the Franks, Alemanni and Berbers they basically don't have any more armies, but still some regions, reconquered Chnodomar and Colonia Agrippina, taken back some regions that rebelled from Constantius (Sardinia, Corsica, Ravenna), built infrastructures and massively reorganized my military. The Saxons keep trying sending landing forces on Britain but I always sink their fleets, and the Gaelic keep sending troops against the Saxons, wonder why...

Now I keep two Limitanei\Ripenses stationed at Colonia Agrippina and Augusta Vindelicorum, one Comitatensis at Argentoratum, and use the two Palatinae legions as mobile killing machines...slaying Quadi and Iazyges right now!

These are some suggestions\opinions\questions\troubles I have:
-is there any reason to have Limitanei and Ripenses units? They have the same stats and both are border forces.
-either make starting units recruitable in starting regions, or start with units that are recruitable in starting regions. I had to make those Invicti Iulianii, Seniores Lanciarii and Vexillationes sagitarii recruitable in Arleate, "exchange" via console tricks the eastern cataphracts with western version, otherwise I had no way to replace my losses. The same goes for all those Milites Sagitarii in Gaul, it would be better to start with Numerus Germanic Sagitarii.
-Western Empire should start with some more ports and shipwrights
-population levels and governor buildings should match correctly, not large towns with 6500 people nor huge cities with 7000 people
-is there any plan to make an ALX version? I read in a sticky thread you had troubles with the custom battles, but does the campaign work alright?
-make Eastern Empire stronger, or Quadi, Iazyges and Goths weaker. They have breached through the Danube border and there is no way Constantius' forces can repel them...maybe they will find some scripted garrison around major cities? I plan to use Force Diplomacy to rebalance the situation...
-a "readme" that explains the full background scripts would be more than welcome..

I used force diplomacy to return Sirmium to the Eastern Empire, and I found myself also with Dalmatia, Epirus and another region, plus some Palatinae and Comitatenses stacks!

Last but not least...this mod seems to be more prone to the post-battle CTD than others I have played...6000\7000 men on the battlefield are enough to make the crash happen easily. I have been using all the known workarounds (4gb patch, wait 30 seconds before closing the summary, watch the CPU activity led indicator, change sound provider to Direct3d instead of Miles, tried both the integrated and the dedicated graphics...). Happens easily not only when multiple family members are killed, or the reinforcements come from a city, or after 2 or 3 hours of playing, but even in simple open field battles.

Thanks in advance for any answer!

**First Citizen Gallienus** · April 22, 2012, 12:26 PM

Originally Posted by Spartan 666

These are some suggestions\opinions\questions\troubles I have:
-is there any reason to have Limitanei and Ripenses units? They have the same stats and both are border forces.

In regards to whether or not limitanei and ripenses are good. Yes, they are good. It kind of took me awhile to figure out how to use them effectively. One of the important keys to victory is actually having a general lead them though!

As for choosing one over the other, it doesn't really matter as they both pretty much do the same job pretty well. You just need to pay attention to what cities recruit what, as some cities may support recruitment for one but might not the other.

Auxilia Cohortes Limitanei and Legio Ripenses make good reserve troops for your main battle line. There are different ways in which I setup my armies but here's a couple examples where I use limitanei and ripenses units:

Army I. (Heavy Army)
Have a main battle line of 6 Legio Comitaneses units, backed up by 2 missile units of either Legio Lanciarii, Milites exulcatores, or numerus exculcatores, etc. You deploy one unit of those for each pair of 3 comitatenses, behind them.

Behind the main line and the missile line are 2 to 4 archer units.

And behind the archer line are 4 to 6 auxilia cohortes limitanei or legio ripenses, acting as reserve troops to assist the main line or protect the flanks.

Keep in mind you can also supplement your main battle lines with Legio Armatus Ripenses if you're running short on Comitatenses units. Armatus are the armored variant of the Legio Ripenses, so they perform 'fair enough' as front rank troops.

Army II. (Light Army)
This lighter army is much like the first, but is generally more reliant on the auxilia.

Your main battle line now is the Legio Armatus Ripenses supported by cheap milites/numerus exculcatores and milites sagitarii. Where as in the first army you would typically rely on the Comitatenses or Palatinae grade archer and missile troops.

These lighter armies are usually meant to support a heavy army or go solo and mop up likewise light enemy armies. You don't really want to go up against a heavy barbarian army made up of say... 'Thervingi Veterans,' for instance... Although I have successfully beaten back high grade enemy armies with a ripenses/limitanei army like this.

Hope this helps.

**julianus heraclius** · April 22, 2012, 05:07 PM

Originally Posted by Spartan 666

You were right, I must have messed something up myself...now I take care and can switch between CA's and Ihatemonday's sounds, and between CA's and RS's vegetation without troubles.

Glad you could solve that.

Well I have progressed a lot in my 355 campaign with Western Empire (4tpy, difficulty M\M). I wiped out the Franks, Alemanni and Berbers they basically don't have any more armies, but still some regions, reconquered Chnodomar and Colonia Agrippina, taken back some regions that rebelled from Constantius (Sardinia, Corsica, Ravenna), built infrastructures and massively reorganized my military. The Saxons keep trying sending landing forces on Britain but I always sink their fleets, and the Gaelic keep sending troops against the Saxons, wonder why...

Well done.

These are some suggestions\opinions\questions\troubles I have:
-is there any reason to have Limitanei and Ripenses units? They have the same stats and both are border forces.

Only for variety. Ripenses represent the old legionary units while the limitanei are the old auxiliary units.

-either make starting units recruitable in starting regions, or start with units that are recruitable in starting regions. I had to make those Invicti Iulianii, Seniores Lanciarii and Vexillationes sagitarii recruitable in Arleate, "exchange" via console tricks the eastern cataphracts with western version, otherwise I had no way to replace my losses. The same goes for all those Milites Sagitarii in Gaul, it would be better to start with Numerus Germanic Sagitarii.

Well, this was my prerogative as I wanted Julian to start with some of his top troops. But this doesn't mean that they should automatically be recruitable in Gaul. The scenario could be that these troops have arrived from the East. Either way, it is really about preserving good quality troops. Nothing is meant to be easy. And anyway, people are free to alter things as they wish, as you have done.

-

Western Empire should start with some more ports and shipwrights
-population levels and governor buildings should match correctly, not large towns with 6500 people nor huge cities with 7000 people

For what reason?

-is there any plan to make an ALX version? I read in a sticky thread you had troubles with the custom battles, but does the campaign work alright?

I have done that but still cannot get custom battles to work. My 355AD campaign is currently being played with the ALEX.exe.

-make Eastern Empire stronger, or Quadi, Iazyges and Goths weaker. They have breached through the Danube border and there is no way Constantius' forces can repel them...maybe they will find some scripted garrison around major cities? I plan to use Force Diplomacy to rebalance the situation...

There is already a reinforcement script for Sirmium and an optional install for Forced Diplomacy. If I made the Constantius faction stronger in Illyria it could quickly overwhelm the Julian faction. Again, another challenge for the Constantius faction to face.

-a "readme" that explains the full background scripts would be more than welcome..

I used force diplomacy to return Sirmium to the Eastern Empire, and I found myself also with Dalmatia, Epirus and another region, plus some Palatinae and Comitatenses stacks!

Good point. I may include it in the Main Page Thread, though if people knew all of this before hand, they may compensate their strategies. The script is meant to work behind the scenes so to speak so telling everybody about it may ruin some of the surprises.

Last but not least...this mod seems to be more prone to the post-battle CTD than others I have played...6000\7000 men on the battlefield are enough to make the crash happen easily. I have been using all the known workarounds (4gb patch, wait 30 seconds before closing the summary, watch the CPU activity led indicator, change sound provider to Direct3d instead of Miles, tried both the integrated and the dedicated graphics...). Happens easily not only when multiple family members are killed, or the reinforcements come from a city, or after 2 or 3 hours of playing, but even in simple open field battles.

Yes, I'm afraid I am at a loss with this. Some people have real problems while others have very little, so really can't add anything new here.

**Spartan 666** · April 24, 2012, 12:17 PM