Something that I would like to see: Command

[Wambat]

I have always felt Command to be one of the particularly useless attributes. The only time I value the attribute is when it contributes to the acquisition of some otherwise useful ancillary or character trait. I should like to see some more ancilarirs and character traits which have higher Command requirements, to give the pursuit of a high Command ranking some practical purpose.

[Éorl]

I'm not sure about this - but isn't command related to how many times you can rally troops during battles?

[Thangaror]

Does rally really work?
Not for me I think. I use it for fun and flavor before the general charges. xD

[Aradan]

It does.

Command does offer bonuses on the battlefield, for defending armies. And of course auto-resolve. Not useless at all, in fact it's wildly overpowered in auto-resolve.

[Wambat]

It does.

Command does offer bonuses on the battlefield, for defending armies. And of course auto-resolve. Not useless at all, in fact it's wildly overpowered in auto-resolve.

I never use auto resolve, it doesn't seem very fun, but at least in manual battles I have never once lost a battle due to a "bad" commander, nor won a battle due to a "good" commander. Tactics is everything on the battlefield. Things might be different in a player vs player battle, but I don't see that as a consideration for this mod.

But moving on to another useless attribute: Influence on emissaries. This I have tested and the amount of Influence on an emissary has no perceivable effect on how much gold you can get from a transaction with the ai, how likely a proposal is to be accepted, or how much you might have to pay to bribe an enemy unit. The only thing it does seem to have an effect on is how much it costs to bribe the emissary itself. What does have a practical effect upon the performance of an emissary is the +x% to bribe on traits. I suggest adding more of these traits to spawn for higher level Influence attributes. I would like to see a significant bonus to bribe for emissaries with maxed Influence, and this would give incentive for the player to find and bribe emissaries with the rare ancillaries.

And this brings us to bribing: Some factions should be more or less susceptible to bribery as a whole. The Dwarves, for example, are historically stiff necked and too proud to see themselves in the service of another power. I would suggest that all Dwarves be given a base 200% resistance to bribery.

Elves, on the other hand, I would go so far as to say should be completely immune to bribery, right on down to the level of the emissary. This would break down in the case of stacks without the "protection" of a general or emissary, so what to do here I do not know.

Some human factions, like Dunland and Rhun, might be argued to be historically more susceptible to bribery.

[Kilo11]

And this brings us to bribing: Some factions should be more or less susceptible to bribery as a whole. The Dwarves, for example, are historically stiff necked and too proud to see themselves in the service of another power. I would suggest that all Dwarves be given a base 200% resistance to bribery.

Elves, on the other hand, I would go so far as to say should be completely immune to bribery, right on down to the level of the emissary. This would break down in the case of stacks without the "protection" of a general or emissary, so what to do here I do not know.

Some human factions, like Dunland and Rhun, might be argued to be historically more susceptible to bribery.

That's a class idea Wambat. I think you're dead on with that one. It's totally true that bribery should be hugely dependent on who you're trying to bribe, which boils down in large part to what race they are. And I wonder if you could even take it one step further in the game. Say, make it so bribery is also dependent on who the briber is. For example, the men of Rohan might be somewhat susceptible to bribery, but probably only if it meant fighting for other men or possible elves. They sure as shi* aren't gonna fight for orcs or trolls. Same thing if you take Dwarves. They might work for Dale, for a price, seeing as how they're long-time allies and more or less ethnic cousins now, but no self-respecting dwarf would ever raise an axe in the service of an elf. Such complexity might be tough to work in, but I think it's worth a shot, for the realism it would add.

[Dejeyo]

I think that's a great idea Wambat. It would make things more realistic and lore accurate. Hobbits should also be given quite high resistance to bribery as they wouldn't serve anyone but themselves. Or am I wrong?

[Kilo11]

Hobbits should also be given quite high resistance to bribery as they wouldn't serve anyone but themselves. Or am I wrong?

Really depends on what you're trying to bribe them with. Land, title, power, maybe not so effective. Ale and pipe-weed, you got yourself an army of hobbit mercs!

[Wambat]

I think that's a great idea Wambat. It would make things more realistic and lore accurate. Hobbits should also be given quite high resistance to bribery as they wouldn't serve anyone but themselves. Or am I wrong?

I believe Saruman's corrupting of The Shire is proof enough that plenty of Hobbits have their price; but there seems little doubt that Hobbits are, on the whole, less corruptible than men.

As for mercenaries: I can see rare (very rare) groups of adventurous hobbits bold enough to hire themselves out as mercenaries; there would have to be an exceedingly low replenishment rate. I do not see the lore as supporting the idea of either Elves or Dwarves as mercenaries. I think Dwarves could be local recruitables, but never hired guns, and Elves should only be recruitable by Elves.

[Kilo11]

Elves should only be recruitable by Elves.

I think you're on the money with hobbits and dwarves, but you really think only elves should be able to recruit elves? I mean sure, definitely no elvish mercs, or elves available to orcs, wildlings, dwarves, or any of the traditional enemies (Haradrim, Easterlings, etc), but mightn't they be called upon in some locations by men of the Reunited Kingdom? After all, it was only reunited with the assistance of elves?

Although I am not very familiar with the lore you guys are employing from the fourth age. Perhaps there's been a falling out between elvendom and the Reunited Kingdom. I would need some clarification from someone who's read that material. BTW, what is that material? I don't know of anything extending beyond the LOTR books, unless there is something tucked away in the appendices I missed.

[Aradan]

The mod is based on Tolkien's "The New Shadow" unfinished manuscript. There isn't much lore on the 4th age (certainly not as far into it as the time when the campaign takes place), which is one of the reasons we chose it for the mod's settings.

Elven units available to other factions is a no-no, as that could theoretically result in Elves fighting Elves. Same with Dwarves and Hobbits.

[Kilo11]

The mod is based on Tolkien's "The New Shadow" unfinished manuscript.

Is it possible to get my hands on that somehow? I just looked it up and saw that it was only like 30 pages or something, but still, worth having!

Elven units available to other factions is a no-no, as that could theoretically result in Elves fighting Elves. Same with Dwarves and Hobbits.

Gotchya. That makes sense. Most of the peoples of Middle-Earth were first and foremost - racist.

[Aradan]

Is it possible to get my hands on that somehow? I just looked it up and saw that it was only like 30 pages or something, but still, worth having!

You'd have to buy Vol 12 of History of Middle-earth.

Gotchya. That makes sense. Most of the peoples of Middle-Earth were first and foremost - racist.

That has nothing to do with racism (the belief that their race is superior etc). They would just refuse fighting against their own kind.

[Kilo11]

That has nothing to do with racism (the belief that their race is superior etc). They would just refuse fighting against their own kind.

Yeah, I know. It's just amusing to say that elves are racist

[Jagmodo]

Yeah, I know. It's just amusing to say that elves are racist

Especially Silvan Elves. All blond, beautiful and Übermensch… They are definitively suspicious.

[Wambat]

Elven units available to other factions is a no-no, as that could theoretically result in Elves fighting Elves. Same with Dwarves and Hobbits.

Is it possible to give Elven, Dwarvish, and Hobbit units ruinously low morale when facing their own kind? That way they would effectively refuse to fight each other on the battlefield.

Also, there have been circumstances in which Elves have fought each other. While such circumstances might not prevail now, I don't see why Dwarves and Hobbits would be any less capable of killing each other given the right incentives.

[Beorn]

TNS chapter of HoME vol. 12 isn't 30 pages, barey a dozen IIRC.

[Aradan]

There is no way to affect a particular unit's morale depending on the existence of some other particular unit in the enemy army.


Well, it's a matter of taste. In theory anyone could fight anyone, given the right incentives. But I can't see Hobbits in RK's service (for instance) fighting Hobbits. They didn't do it even under Saruman's influence. And the Dwarves on our map are all supposed to belong to the 'good guys' and more or less the same house (Longbeards, since Firebeards and Broadbeams had decreased in number). I don't see a Dwarf in the service of, say, Rohan fighting other Dwarves. If Gimli refused to fight Dunlendings, because they were friendly to his people years ago, I doubt he'd accept fighting his kin.

[Wambat]

Well, this brings us to the problem of rebellious cities:
Are all Elven, Dwarven and Hobbit cities going to be populated by human units exclusively when they rebel? Where are all these humans supposed to come from? Or, are all Elven, Dwarven and Hobbit cities going to be immune to rebellion, and there associated units only recruitable in these few, select, immune cities; and would these cities then be immune to rebellion under new rulers?

[athanaric]

If Gimli refused to fight Dunlendings, because they were friendly to his people years ago, I doubt he'd accept fighting his kin.

When did that happen?