Second rebellion - members still loosing their stats

**Acheronious** · April 08, 2012, 03:23 AM

Hi mates!
First thanks to people who works on this excelent mod!

I have problems with Second rebellion - don´t mind me when it starts, sometimes around 80 or 100 provinces, last time after 130 or how many provinces will rebel. A am able beat the rebeliion, but I have problem with some family members or maybe with cities. If city with a governor is going to rebel, the governor lost every stats in influence, loyalty, management etc. Well, I understant that it could be a part of rebellion, but why it happens, when is after revolution, every provinces is conquered back. Then I settle in a new governor with good stats, but next turn he loses his stats and the city is going to rebel. When I take out the governor from the city, he regain his stats back. So this suck to me, these members are useless then and game a little bit unplayable. My national leader has already trait Dictator for life.
I searched web or forum but nothing found.
Is it a bug or do I something wrong? Thanks for replies.

**ur-Lord Tedric** · April 08, 2012, 06:07 AM

I've seen others report this - and therefore a plea....

Please could anyone who's experienced this please put it here, with as much accurate description as possible? I would also ask, as not everyone has reported it, if people haven't experienced it and have anything to suggest why they might not have?

Thanks.

**CTD_or_Bust** · April 08, 2012, 07:16 AM

I don't know how to put more accuracy into the description. I've reached the second rebellion in my 1 turn playthrough and it's just as described. Generals lose all management, loyalty and influence icons if the settlement is targeted for rebellion. This does not occur if they are not in a settlement when the rebellion hits. Interestingly, they do not lose their command stars.

Okay after having a brief look at it I have ascertained the following tidbits:

Removing a governor that has lost off of his traits restores them the next turn.. if he survives and doesn't rebel.

Despite removing a rebellious governor it does not improve the situation. Whether the settlement returns to green or not, it still has the same risk of rebelling as before. Screens below

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

As you can see for yourself, by removing the governors it causes far more Roman Rebels than plain free peoples. As we are all familiar by now, Free Peoples are much easier to defeat than Roman Rebels.

When removing governors from settlements I lost 4 additional settlements than the turn where I did not remove them.

My first campaign and encounter with the Second Rebellion I diligently removed every governor from his settlement when it was going to rebel. As consequence of that action I never had any settlements become Free Peoples. It was one massive powerhouse of Roman Rebels, who immediately became the top ranked faction in the game in all measurable regards.

So, in conclusion of what I have just learned: If you remove your generals and governors from settlements they will still rebel but there is a very decent chance the governors will stay with you (and 100% will recover their lost stats). You will receive way way more Roman Rebel settlements instead of a healthy mix of both Free Peoples and Roman Rebels and you will lose additional settlements immediately. I cannot say if those settlements would rebel in the turn afterwards but I can say they will rebel immediately.

You have a choice between an incredible enemy that uses your own legions against you, only with more experience and better upgrades (God save us) or a mix of Roman Rebels^doom and Free People Rebels^{warm and fuzzy}.

That's all I have to report at this time.

**century x** · April 08, 2012, 10:08 AM

Oh my god this is horrible

**ur-Lord Tedric** · April 08, 2012, 10:38 AM

CTD' - Thank you.

Let me try to understand (in fact, I'm a bit naive here as it will be my test campaign that will, eventually, be the first experience of this, so I don't have any direct experience of the 'Big Civil War' yet - but this also makes me a useful tester as I'm querying everything!). Anyway....

In the first picture I can see: overall you have had most of Britannia, a goodly chunk of nearer Spain and Belgium go over to the Rebels; and then about the same number of provinces/settlements rebel to become Free People's again? I'm a bit surprised by the colouring of the map - have you taken the 'Terra Icognita' yourself (that is an issue I believe) and is that the Gallaeci still alive in further Spain? Other than that you've also taken Germany, Poland and the Baltic states? You've killed off the Averni, Belgae, Cathaginians & Cimbri, but the other factions are still around?

As to the settlements you've shown: Veldideno has rebelled back to it's original Free People state, and that's your garrison & Governor now outside; Vesontio is currently in a state of unrest/rebellion, but not yet rebelled; your other 3 are okay, but all, including Vesontio are on auto-manage, you just have a normal slave rebellion outside Noreia? As to those, and apart from Veldideno, you can probably get them all under control by taking auto-manage off (which happens in both rebellions) and sort them out. If so, then picture one seems fine to innocent old me.

Now, from reading carefully, I assume that picture two, however, is a re-run of the previous turn, but that you removed governors first? The result was different in that more settlements went over to the Roman Rebels? If that's just two examples of what could happen in the rebellion, then that's also fine. I must admit I'm more curious about the 6 full legions(?) I can see in Gaul - is that what happened to those governors you took out; they all raised their own legion?

None of that covers the traits question however. But, and it's not something I've ever tried, so I just have - I wondered if, when you put a settlement on auto-manage whether the Governor effects went away - but no, that's not it. So, it would be great to have some examples of exactly what that is.

I don't know how many people this is affecting, so it would be useful to have anyone else chip in. I will note, more for me than anyone else actually - it's 598AUC and you've had the 2nd Rebellion? I hadn't even got to the Reforms by then, let alone got to 40 settlements!

I only really note that as I wonder if there's anything else that 'blitzing' like that may have caused?

**Acheronius** · April 08, 2012, 11:19 AM

Thanks to all. Back to my first post - Once again I tried some solution tactics but there must be a bug. Because civil war time was hectic I forgot to check some cities and I found a nest with lots of family members. They were in my side city which wasn´t affected by revolt and all members had some stats ++. I used them in surranding cities, which didn´t have governor and were on my side, but after one turn, members lost theirs stats and history repeated again...And this happened after I have already reconquest rebel provinces. Besides, two members got after taking them out from cities full 10 stars of all their stats like in trainer which I have never used in Rome.

**CTD_or_Bust** · April 08, 2012, 10:18 AM

The only horrible I see is when cities that have rebelled and been retaken re-rebel the next turn!

**CTD_or_Bust** · April 08, 2012, 01:02 PM

Yeah I prioritized the heck out of getting reforms up and as I've mentioned in anecdotal posts I'm highly prone to blitzing as I believe the term on this forum is defined. My own definition differs but to each their own and I won't argue against the popular and accepted definition.

-Yes, I grabbed Isnomis. Force of habit I guess, I never develop it in any meaningful way. I just like to see red all over Africa. I was unaware that it may cause the game to get buggy but aside from some CTDs here and there I've yet to experience any severe bugs/crashes.

-The previous turn before the screens were taken I controlled all of Western and a goodly portion of central Europe. Averni, Belgae, Cathaginians & Cimbri are indeed gone, as well as Gallaeci and Sparta. So the screens would be the third turn of the Civil War. The first turn resulted in a handful, maybe 6-9 provinces revolting. The second was around 10 and the third was perhaps 6. It's actually tough to keep track because I try to reconquer as much as I can as fast as I can when it comes to Free Towns. Roman Rebels are fine, they'll build on the infrastructure with the same culture as you. Free Peoples will build dirty heathen temples over yours.

(The exact order of campaigns and eliminations was Carthage, Gallaeci, Averni, Cimbri, Belgae, Sparta; Only Carthage and Gallaeci were fought simultaneously. Even managed to secure a legitimate peace treaty with Cimbri when they invaded [those chumps])

-Those legions you see are just a part of the waves that spawn at the beginning of the Civil War. That's only around half of what was dropped on my doorstep (In both my current 1 turn and my 0 turn campaign). They for the most part have different varieties of legions. Scariest, there's two full Praetorian legions sitting outside Rome :/

-I just tick on then off Auto Manage and it clears all the provinces ez. As Acheronius says above me in his first post, pulling rebellious governors out of settlements in an effort to save them may make matters much worse. They'll try to rebel again and take new settlements with them until you either kill them off or let them take a settlement.

-All of my provinces west (and north) of Greece were content before the Civil War. The Free Peoples revolts were a result of the Civil Wars modifier ( actual spoiler below)

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

-Finally as stated in the beginning, yeah I move very fast then hold. The whole hurry up and wait doctrine. About 15 turns ago I flat out stopped expanding and started focusing only on troop production to counter the Civil War I knew was about to hit. Then I proceeded to take the fight back to Macedonia and Sparta who had both been throwing stacks at me. By the time I had pushed Sparta out of existence and was chewing into the heart of Macedonia the Civil War hit and I blitzed then traded several provinces back for peace with Macedonia.

All and all its not too bad. The first time in my 0 turn campaign my Macedonian and Carthaginian conquests rebelled. Not only is North Africa a lot harder to retake than Gaul or Iberia, the Civil War revolts in Greece split my provinces in two and was a nightmare to take back. I'm pretty sure I have a good feel on where to expand to make the Civil War easier to manage. Start of the campaign immediately trade Dyrrachium to Macedonia for an alliance. Send those troops packing back to save you from Hannibal. Same with your Iberian province whatever its name is. If you can somehow get a diplomat to the Gallaeci before it rebels against you that's gravy, grab an alliance for that province. But I couldn't make it in time and I just let it rebel and reclaimed it after unifying Italy. Kill Carthage however you like, unify Iberia (I got lucky and kept the entirety of Iberia and North Africa infected with the plague until I could attack), turn and wipe out Averni (If you're lucky the northwestern settlement in Gaul will be Free Peoples and you can take that first, giving you an impeccable springboard for a two pronged invasion. It probably helped that I transferred my plagued spies to Gaul and let it ravage them in the turns I was positioning my legions for invasion), [Marian Reforms start here] head straight east and eat up the free peoples settlements around Cimbri, kill Cimbri (pain in the _. I waited for them to declare war on my Belgae allies and ate their eastern and less guarded half immediately), kill Belgae (poor allies), unify Brit, then finally return back to Dyrrachium and take back what you gave away at the start of the game and take Greece.

Then Civil War and I'm yet to hammer out how I'm going to conclude my campaign but I'll probably eliminate everyone but Sarms in Europe and trade a few provinces for an alliance while I take apart Egypt and the rest of the world, leaving Sarmys for last. My first (0 turn) campaign was pure heck trying to hold against Sarm and fight the rest of the world as well. Too hard. Better to stop the expansion there and take the easier route until they're all that's left and you can open a war on multiple fronts instead of having to fight right through the fist of their horse armies.

Anyway. Uh, did I leave anything out? Hm. Anyway yeah I would urge you to NOT remove governors from settlements. Yes, you may lose the settlement (but not always) but when the rebellion hits that city there is nothing you can do about it. Sure, you can save a governor. But to what end? If you leave him in a settlement the next turn or the turn after that, then he has a high probability of rekindling the rebellion and taking that settlement away from you. So let them rebel. It sucks but you're making so much money at that point and despite losing 30% of your empire, you still have 50 to 70 provinces anyway. Best not to be greedy like I was and try to save governors.

Oh yes, I get my reforms so quickly because I recruit velites out of the other Sicilian cities and disband them in Akragas for the population boost. Yeah, legionnaires are very expensive and the infrastructure to get them is also very expensive and takes a long while to get BUT you just can't beat archers of Crete!

I love those little guys. They're my bread and butter. In my Brittania campaign good god so many barbarians died from arrows alone. My legion compositions are 1:2 standard and aux. One standard heavy hitting legion supported by two moderate volunteer/batavarian types. It's easier on the wallet and as I don't use siege equipment, it lets me roll along with speed and have a hard hitting army with two supporting armies to hold cities but close enough for field support or attacking on their own in a pinch.

**dvk901** · April 08, 2012, 01:49 PM

My gut feeling is that taking Governors out of cities will, as 'CTD_or_Bust' says, not only accomplish nothing, but even worsen the situation. Those Governors likely already HAVE the traits that will lead to rebellion, so taking them out only delays the inevitable. Still, I'll do some checking and see if I can even understand what Tone has done here.

**century x** · April 08, 2012, 02:18 PM

Originally Posted by dvk901

My gut feeling is that taking Governors out of cities will, as 'CTD_or_Bust' says, not only accomplish nothing, but even worsen the situation. Those Governors likely already HAVE the traits that will lead to rebellion, so taking them out only delays the inevitable. Still, I'll do some checking and see if I can even understand what Tone has done here.

The almighty Tone has made our governors permanent Rebel scum

**Ferdiad** · April 08, 2012, 03:50 PM

Originally Posted by century x

The almighty Tone has made our governors permanent Rebel scum

I think we need a Base-Delta-Zero.

**century x** · April 09, 2012, 12:42 PM

Originally Posted by Ferdiad

I think we need a Base-Delta-Zero.

Oh yes, a complete destruction of the surface ::Cough cough:: Rebels I mean

**CTD_or_Bust** · April 08, 2012, 03:00 PM

An important distinction I've learned is an obvious one. Troops are not governors. Provinces without governors can rebel of course but the troops will not be tainted by their homes mischief. And you can put a fort adjacent to a settlement that's about to go.. Sure you may not be able to take the settlement back immediately (since we rarely leave full legions as garrison forces in heartland territories) but it will preserve the units until you can use them.

Otherwise when those settlements turn against you.. expect ~~thrace~~those Roman Rebels to attack the forces ejected from the cities and bloody them terribly.

(I'm just trying to find some kind of balm to soothe the loss of entire empires worth of settlements

)
Edit: I was on the cusp of saying this before but wasn't certain how to put it. Now I got it: If you don't want your generals and governors to rebel against you then take them the _ out of settlements. Once they've already had their movement points taken away it's too late for them. But before then, say you have an 8 command star general or a 7 management and you do not want to lose him, don't use him. Settlements=risk. Field=safe. For six turns. After that they start losing loyalty "naturally"

. Then you'll have to risk it for one turn to reset it!

But the main lesson to take away is this. Once you retake a city, don't leave that winning general in the settlement. Could be next turn you'll find the very man who fought and bled to take that settlement back into the fold has a new idea: Spoils go to the victor and the victor, in his humble opinion, is HIM! Retake your settlement and move on. Sniff the air don't kiss the dirt.

**Totalknight** · April 10, 2012, 05:52 PM

I believe I was the second to experience this and brought it up many times to DVK, sucks doesn't when you ceasar can't even stay in Rome. I found out that after a while of loading and reloading, eventually a few generals can finally stay in the settlements. A few family members as well, and some you recruit as well. So my best advice fellow legionaries is to role play this a pacify Rome of these corrupt senators etc and put them in a fort in your most hostile lands and let the barbarians have their way with them. Rome is now an empire!! No betrayal is accepted!!

**Acheronius** · April 16, 2012, 02:39 AM

I took all my power once again and tried similar tactics to Totalknight. Members with impotent stats sent to lethal fights and let them die. When I almost conquered all rebel settlements, a new 3rd civil war started. I searched forum and I killed faction leader. (trait with Caesar didn´t work due to not found a charater name). The succesor got some caesar traits and situation calmed down. Not activation script also helped ( try same action, than save/load and not ativate script and next turn) After calming down I carelly tried to settle some members, if they lost their stats (probably still affected by revolution or bug) I killed them or tried to sent them to another city or used them as field commanders, because they got some high stars stats. Now I continue conquering the whole mape with activated script. Seems to be a little cheating but I don´t thing that rebellion goes in this way, there must be a bug.

**dvk901** · April 19, 2012, 09:28 AM

The reason that Governors and\or characters lose all their stats prior to and during the rebellion is because the traits they are given to cause the rebellion take them all away. This is why taking them out of settlements trying to 'save' them is useless. Characters exhibiting this kind of thing have, in essence, rebelled or will.

**century x** · April 19, 2012, 11:24 AM

Originally Posted by dvk901

The reason that Governors and\or characters lose all their stats prior to and during the rebellion is because the traits they are given to cause the rebellion take them all away. This is why taking them out of settlements trying to 'save' them is useless. Characters exhibiting this kind of thing have, in essence, rebelled or will.

So basically there is no way around it. They will become rebel scum