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    Default "A View on Günter Grass - Why we need an open debate on Israel"

    Günter Grass a German author and playwright issued a controversial poem,

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Warum schweige ich, verschweige zu lange,
    was offensichtlich ist und in Planspielen
    geübt wurde, an deren Ende als Überlebende
    wir allenfalls Fußnoten sind.
    Es ist das behauptete Recht auf den Erstschlag,
    der das von einem Maulhelden unterjochte
    und zum organisierten Jubel gelenkte
    iranische Volk auslöschen könnte,
    weil in dessen Machtbereich der Bau
    einer Atombombe vermutet wird.

    Doch warum untersage ich mir,
    jenes andere Land beim Namen zu nennen,
    in dem seit Jahren - wenn auch geheimgehalten -
    ein wachsend nukleares Potential verfügbar
    aber außer Kontrolle, weil keiner Prüfung
    zugänglich ist?

    Das allgemeine Verschweigen dieses Tatbestandes,
    dem sich mein Schweigen untergeordnet hat,
    empfinde ich als belastende Lüge
    und Zwang, der Strafe in Aussicht stellt,
    sobald er mißachtet wird;
    das Verdikt "Antisemitismus" ist geläufig.Jetzt aber, weil aus meinem Land,
    das von ureigenen Verbrechen,
    die ohne Vergleich sind
    Warum schweige ich, verschweige zu lange,
    was offensichtlich ist und in Planspielen
    geübt wurde, an deren Ende als Überlebende
    wir allenfalls Fußnoten sind.
    Es ist das behauptete Recht auf den Erstschlag,
    der das von einem Maulhelden unterjochte
    und zum organisierten Jubel gelenkte
    iranische Volk auslöschen könnte,
    weil in dessen Machtbereich der Bau
    einer Atombombe vermutet wird.

    Doch warum untersage ich mir,
    jenes andere Land beim Namen zu nennen,
    in dem seit Jahren - wenn auch geheimgehalten -
    ein wachsend nukleares Potential verfügbar
    aber außer Kontrolle, weil keiner Prüfung
    zugänglich ist?

    Das allgemeine Verschweigen dieses Tatbestandes,
    dem sich mein Schweigen untergeordnet hat,
    empfinde ich als belastende Lüge
    und Zwang, der Strafe in Aussicht stellt,
    sobald er mißachtet wird;
    das Verdikt "Antisemitismus" ist geläufig.

    Jetzt aber, weil aus meinem Land,
    das von ureigenen Verbrechen,
    die ohne Vergleich sind,
    Mal um Mal eingeholt und zur Rede gestellt wird,
    wiederum und rein geschäftsmäßig, wenn auch
    mit flinker Lippe als Wiedergutmachung deklariert,
    ein weiteres U-Boot nach Israel
    geliefert werden soll, dessen Spezialität
    darin besteht, allesvernichtende Sprengköpfe
    dorthin lenken zu können, wo die Existenz
    einer einzigen Atombombe unbewiesen ist,
    doch als Befürchtung von Beweiskraft sein will,
    sage ich, was gesagt werden muß.
    Warum aber schwieg ich bislang?
    Weil ich meinte, meine Herkunft,
    die von nie zu tilgendem Makel behaftet ist,
    verbiete, diese Tatsache als ausgesprochene Wahrheit
    dem Land Israel, dem ich verbunden bin
    und bleiben will, zuzumuten.
    Warum sage ich jetzt erst,
    gealtert und mit letzter Tinte:
    Die Atommacht Israel gefährdet
    den ohnehin brüchigen Weltfrieden?
    Weil gesagt werden muß,
    was schon morgen zu spät sein könnte;
    auch weil wir - als Deutsche belastet genug -
    Zulieferer eines Verbrechens werden könnten,
    das voraussehbar ist, weshalb unsere Mitschuld
    durch keine der üblichen Ausreden
    zu tilgen wäre.
    Und zugegeben: ich schweige nicht mehr,
    weil ich der Heuchelei des Westens
    überdrüssig bin; zudem ist zu hoffen,
    es mögen sich viele vom Schweigen befreien,
    den Verursacher der erkennbaren Gefahr
    zum Verzicht auf Gewalt auffordern und
    gleichfalls darauf bestehen,
    daß eine unbehinderte und permanente Kontrolle
    des israelischen atomaren Potentials
    und der iranischen Atomanlagen
    durch eine internationale Instanz
    von den Regierungen beider Länder zugelassen wird.
    Nur so ist allen, den Israelis und Palästinensern,
    mehr noch, allen Menschen, die in dieser
    vom Wahn okkupierten Region
    dicht bei dicht verfeindet leben
    und letztlich auch uns zu helfen.
    - from http://www.sueddeutsche.de/kultur/ge...muss-1.1325809

    as issued by the guardian.co.uk... - obviously a cut and censored (= short) version!

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    But why have I kept silent till now?Because I thought my own origins,
    Tarnished by a stain that can never be removed,
    meant I could not expect Israel, a land
    to which I am, and always will be, attached,h
    to accept this open declaration of the truth.
    Why only now, grown old,
    and with what ink remains, do I say:
    Israel's atomic power endangers
    an already fragile world peace?
    Because what must be said
    may be too late tomorrow;
    and because – burdened enough as Germans –
    we may be providing material for a crime
    that is foreseeable, so that our complicity
    wil not be expunged by any
    of the usual excuses.
    And granted: I've broken my silence
    because I'm sick of the West's hypocrisy;
    and I hope too that many may be freed
    from their silence, may demand
    that those responsible for the open danger we face renounce the use of force,may insist that the governments of
    both Iran and Israel allow an international authority
    free and open inspection of
    the nuclear potential and capability of both.
    A comment by a commentator of the Spiegel:

    Is Israel a threat to world peace? German writer Günter Grass has been blasted as an anti-Semite this week for making just such a claim in a new poem. But while the verse may not win any awards, Grass has kicked off an important -- and long overdue -- debate. And, he's right.

    A great poem it is not. Nor is it a brilliant political analysis. But the brief lines that Günter Grass has published under the title "What Must Be Said" will one day be seen as some of his most influential words. They mark a rupture. It is this one sentence that we will not be able to ignore in the future: "The nuclear power Israel is endangering a world peace that is already fragile."

    It is a sentence that has triggered an outcry. Because it is true. Because it is a German, an author, a Nobel laureate who said it. Because it is Günter Grass who said it. And therein lies the breach. And, for that, one should thank Grass. He has taken it upon himself to utter this sentence for all of us. A much-delayed dialogue has begun. It is a discussion about Israel and whether Israel is preparing a war against Iran, a country whose leader Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has threatened Israel, referring to it as a "cancer" that must be "wiped off the map." Israel, a country that has been surrounded by enemies for decades, many of whom believe that Israel has no right to exist -- even independent of its policies.
    It is a war that could plunge the entire world into the abyss. When a German speaks about such things, Germany must be part of the discussion -- and Germany's historical responsibility.
    Such debates follow a pre-established pattern. Grass knew that he would be chided as an anti-Semite -- a risk taken by any German critic of Israel. Indeed, Mathias Döpfner -- the head of the publishing house Axel Springer, the parent company of the country's largest daily, Bild -- accused Grass of "politically correct anti-Semitism" in a Thursday editorial. Döpfner, a man who fancies himself the guardian of German-Israeli relations, also suggested that Grass should be committed to a historical rehabilitation center and inserts a few jabs about Grass' long-secret World War II membership in the Waffen-SS. Yes, Grass has to deal with such charges, as well.

    Grass Is a Realist

    But Grass is neither an anti-Semite nor a zombie of German history. Grass is a realist. He decries the fact that Israel's nuclear capabilities are "accessible to no inspections." He objects to Germany's weapons-export policies, which supports the shipment of an additional submarine capable of launching nuclear missiles to Israel. And he wearily rejects the "hypocrisy of the West," which -- he leaves unsaid -- has long been the guiding principle of our Middle East policies, from Algeria to Afghanistan.
    Grass also writes nonsense. He goes on about how he kept quiet for a long time and how he is now no longer going to keep quiet -- "aged and with my last bit of ink" -- and that he wants to free others from feeling the need to remain silent. That part isn't very well-formulated. He also warns against the annihilation of the Iranian people, which is certainly not part of the Israeli agenda. The text could have been better shielded against attacks. But it still hits its mark.
    Someone, after all, has to finally pull us out of the shadow of the words that Chancellor Angela Merkel spoke in 2008 during a visit to Jerusalem. At the time, she said that Israel's security belonged to Germany's raison d'état. To avoid misunderstandings, she added: "Given that truth, it cannot remain empty words in times of trouble."
    Helmut Schmidt, Germany's chancellor between 1974 and 1982, once said that feeling responsible for Israel's security is "emotionally understandable, but a foolhardy notion that could have serious consequences." Should war erupt between Israel and Iran, he went on, "then, according to this notion, German soldiers would have to fight, as well." Since then, Israel has considered Germany to be the only other country it can count on besides the US.


    The World Holding Its Breath

    Now, backed by a US in which presidents must secure the support of Jewish lobby groups in the run-up to elections as well as by a Germany in which historical penance has assumed a military component, the Netanyahu administration has the entire world holding its breath: "Netanyahu's Israel has dictated the global agenda as no small state has ever done before," writes the Israeli daily Haaretz. From oil prices to terrorism, there are plenty of reasons for the world to fear a war between Israel and Iran.


    The World Holding Its Breath
    h

    Now, backed by a US in which presidents must secure the support of Jewish lobby groups in the run-up to elections as well as by a Germany in which historical penance has assumed a military component, the Netanyahu administration has the entire world holding its breath: "Netanyahu's Israel has dictated the global agenda as no small state has ever done before," writes the Israeli daily Haaretz. From oil prices to terrorism, there are plenty of reasons for the world to fear a war between Israel and Iran.
    No one's claiming that Iran already has an atomic bomb. No one knows whether Iran is even really working on such a bomb. On the contrary, American intelligence officials believe that Iran halted its program to develop nuclear weapons back in 2003.
    That, though, is of no interest to the Israelis. For them, it's no longer about stopping the Iranians from getting a nuclear bomb. Instead, it's about preventing -- and no longer merely being in a position to prevent -- the Iranians from being able to build such a bomb. They don't want to have to wrestle with the issue that the US had to with Iraq. The Americans still thought that they had to provide proof that their opponent had weapons of mass destruction. But such proof wasn't to be found in Iraq -- nor such weapons. So the Americans simply fabricated the needed proof.
    Israel has thrust an ultimatum on the world. It doesn't want to supply evidence that Iran has a bomb. Nor does it want to provide proof that Iran is even building a bomb. Israel's stance is simple: It doesn't want Iran to reach the "zone of immunity." Accordingly, Israel is threatening to launch an attack before the Iranians can bury their atomic facilities so deep in the granite that even the largest bunker-busting American bombs can no longer reach them.


    Time to Pressure Israel

    Israel and Iran are playing a game of poker that both can win as long as there is no war. The tabloid press calls Ahmadinejad the "nut from Tehran." But he isn't crazy. He wants to remain in office and has oppressed his countries opposition in order to do so: Blood was spilled three years ago when he crushed demonstrations against his rule, locking up many opposition leaders in the process.


    Ahmadinejad is intentionally keeping the world in a cloud of uncertainty regarding his nuclear intentions. He benefits from his strategic ambiguity just as much as the Israelis benefit from their threats of war. Both countries are helping each other expand their influence far beyond what their sizes actually merit.
    In a perverse way, they find themselves in a state of mutual dependence. And that could have remained their own issue, if only they hadn't taken the entire world hostage. As Grass writes, it has come time to demand "an unhindered and permanent monitoring of Israel's nuclear potential and Iran's nuclear facilities by an international entity that the government of both countries would approve" (ed's note: Please note that this is an unofficial, temporary translation; the poem is currently being translated by Grass' official English-language translator).
    At the moment, Iran is feeling the pressure of sanctions. But the time has finally come to put some pressure on Israel, as well. Mind you, whoever says such a thing is not trying "to relativize the guilt of the Germans by making the Jews into perpetrators," as Mathias Döpfner says. In this case, we're not talking about German history. We're talking about the world. And we're talking about the present.


    What's up?
    Last edited by Darth Red; April 09, 2012 at 03:47 PM. Reason: long quotes in spoilers

  2. #2
    boofhead's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: "A View on Günter Grass - Why we need an open debate on Israel"

    Israel is analagous to the lone Western traveller experiencing Arabs at their finest.

  3. #3

    Default Re: "A View on Günter Grass - Why we need an open debate on Israel"

    The uproar about this speaks to how powerful the taboo is against criticizing Israel. If a well-known poet wrote that America, or Russia, or any other nuclear-armed country was a threat to world peace, he may get a passing mention on the fifth page in a national newspaper. If he wrote a similar poem about Iran, he'd be commended by the press and invited to open the following Jewish Congress. But because it involves criticism of Israel (a state with an undeclared nuclear weapons program) all hell breaks lose. Out comes the Holocaust card and the Anti-Defamation League in full force. Anti-free speech Jewish leaders take to the airwaves and demand someone, anyone be arrested and charged with hate-crimes. Germany's guilt-complex gets fired up and they start self-hating all over again. Calls of "boycott Germany!" ring through the air. And so the show goes on.
    Once a political decision has been reached to proceed with internal disturbances in Syria, CIA is prepared, and SIS (MI6) will attempt to mount minor sabotage and coup de main [sic] incidents within Syria, working through contacts with individuals. Incidents should not be concentrated in Damascus. [A] necessary degree of fear, [...] frontier incidents and [staged] border clashes [will] provide a pretext for intervention. The CIA and SIS should use [...] capabilities in both psychological and action fields to augment tension. [Funding should be provided for a] Free Syria Committee [and arms should be supplied to] political factions with paramilitary or other actionist capabilities.
    ~ Joint US-UK leaked Intelligence Document, 1957

  4. #4
    mrmouth's Avatar flaxen haired argonaut
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    Default Re: "A View on Günter Grass - Why we need an open debate on Israel"

    Quote Originally Posted by YukonTrooper View Post
    The uproar about this speaks to how powerful the taboo is against criticizing Israel.
    And yet it is a constant. Nobody is protecting Israel. At times when receptive Israeli administrations existed, still no tangible progress was made towards the ultimate goal. This is an issue that goes well beyond Israel. And just as African Americans have become a pawn, so have the Palestinians by people who would suggest they actually care, because of a shared religion, instead of a shared skin color.
    Last edited by mrmouth; April 08, 2012 at 05:33 AM.
    The fascists of the future will be called anti-fascists
    The best lack all conviction, while the worst are full of passionate intensity

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    Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: "A View on Günter Grass - Why we need an open debate on Israel"

    ^True. The main German TV news program put it as its first issue, and then got 5-6 people of influence in a row saying how its completely wrong to say so such things, making ad hominems how he's old, doesnt get its complicated, is a self hating leftist etc, and then went on "its hard finding anyone agreeing with Grass" and got at the end one unknown politician from the far left party saying "well its complicated". I then went shopping at the Wallmart like supermarket, and they have their own radio channel playing in the super market, and its the same stuff in short.

    There is no opening to his points. Which obviously are sincere and quite substantial.

    I feel more and more like Im in north Korea
    Quote Originally Posted by snuggans View Post
    we can safely say that a % of those 130 were Houthi/Iranian militants that needed to be stopped unfortunately

  6. #6

    Default Re: "A View on Günter Grass - Why we need an open debate on Israel"

    Ah, Günter Grass, the guy who forgot he was a member of the Waffen-SS, and went on to lecture Israel (as well as Germany and the US of course) on moral issues.


    And I've seen a better version of that, er, poem of his:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Originally posted by Christoph Spielberger:

    Was gemacht werden muss
    Warum schweige ich, verschweige zu lange,
    was offensichtlich ist und in Therapiegesprächen
    geübt wurde, an deren Ende vom Geheilten
    nichts bleibt als ein Furz im Wind.
    Es ist der Zwang zu geregeltem Stuhlgang,
    der meinen, von einem Maulhelden gelenkten
    und dem organisierten Jubel geübten
    Entäußerungszwang auslöschen könnte,
    weil in meiner Umgebung der Bau
    einer Stinkbombe vermutet wird.
    Doch warum untersage ich mir,
    jenen Bereich meines Körpers beim Namen zu nennen,
    in dem seit Jahren - wenn auch geheimgehalten -
    ein wachsend fäkales Potential verfügbar
    aber außer Kontrolle, weil keiner Prüfung
    zugänglich ist?
    Das allgemeine Verschweigen dieses Tatbestandes,
    dem sich mein Schließmuskel untergeordnet hat,
    empfinde ich als belastende Lüge
    und Zwang, der Strafe in Aussicht stellt,
    sobald er mißachtet wird;
    das Verdikt ’Inkontinenz’ ist geläufig.
    Jetzt aber, weil in meinem Körper,
    der von ureigenen Entleerungen,
    die ohne Vergleich sind,
    Mal um Mal erprobt und mit Reden garniert, eine,
    wie es heißt: gut fürs Geschäft, wenn auch
    mit flinker Nadel als Wiedergesundmachung deklariert,
    weitere Operation im Analbreich
    gemacht werden soll, dessen Spezialität
    bisher darin bestand, allesvernichtende Haufen
    dorthin machen zu können, wo die Existenz
    eines freien Gedankens bewiesen ist,
    doch aus Befürchtung vor dessen Beweiskraft
    mache ich, was gemacht werden muß.
    Warum aber schwieg ich bislang?
    Weil ich meinte, meine Gewohnheit,
    die von nie zu tilgenden Flecken behaftet ist,
    verbiete, diese Tatsache als ausgesprochene Wahrheit
    meinem Arzt, dem ich verbunden bin
    und bleiben will, zuzumuten.
    Warum sage ich jetzt erst,
    gealtert und mit letzter Rolle Klopapier:
    Der geregelte Stuhlgang gefährdet
    meine ohnehin brüchig gewordene Wichtigkeit?
    Weil noch mehr gemacht werden muß,
    was schon morgen fest geworden sein könnte;
    auch weil wir - als Deutsche belastet genug -
    Zulieferer einer Verstopfung werden könnten,
    die voraussehbar ist, weshalb unsere Mitschuld
    durch keine der üblichen Abführmittel
    zu tilgen wäre.
    Und zugegeben: ich muss noch mehr machen,
    weil ich der Heuchelei der Schulmedizin
    überdrüssig bin; zudem ist zu hoffen,
    es mögen sich viele vom Kot befreien,
    dem Verursacher aller Gefahr
    zum Verzicht auf Stuhlgewalt auffordern und
    gleichfalls darauf bestehen,
    daß eine unbehinderte und permanente Kontrolle
    des medizinischen Personals
    und der innerstädtischen Toilettenanlagen
    durch eine von mir berufene Instanz
    von den Regierungen aller Länder zugelassen wird.
    Nur so ist allen, den Urin- und Kotliebhabern,
    mehr noch, allen Menschen, die in dieser
    vom Wahn okkupierten Region des Körpers
    undicht und als Dichter leben müssen
    - also letztlich mir - zu helfen.


    Also, this:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Originally posted by Titanic magazine:

    Und was aber auch noch gesagt werden muß Von – wiederum, allerherzlichst – Ihrem Günter Grass

    Warum schwieg ich überdies, schwieg all die Jahre
    Von dem anderen Land, das mein Land provozierte
    Anno Neunzehnneununddreißig, bis aufs Blut.
    Und dann aber als unschuldiges Opfer davonkam
    Während mein Land unter einer unbarmherzigen
    Siegerknute ächzte und bis heute auf den Knien rutscht?
    Warum untersagte ich mir immer wieder
    Jenen großen, mißverstandenen Mann zu ehren
    Ohne den wir immer nur in Bus und Bahn unterwegs wären
    Statt unsere Motorgefährte auch mal schön auszufahren mit
    Tempo Zweihundertvierzig und Wind in unserem Haar
    Beziehungsweise Schnurrbart.
    Das allgemeine Verschweigen dieser Tatbestände
    Empfinde ich als Lüge, gewiß irgendwie
    politisch korrekt, wie es heute so sein muß
    Will man nicht als Rechtsterrorist gebrandmarkt werden
    Aber trotzdem als hundsgemeine Lüge.
    Und so will ich von nun an stets und immerfort sagen
    Was gesagt werden muß, gerade von uns Deutschen
    Über den Schandvertrag von Versailles, über Olympia ’36
    Über Stalin, die Kriegsschuld, die angeblichen
    Sechs Millionen, mit denen "man" seit Jahrzehnten
    Mitgefühl und vielviel Geld aus uns herauspreßt, ja saugt.
    Über all dies will ich nicht mehr schweigen
    Solange ich noch gehörig Tinte auf dem Füller hab
    Und das übrigens auch im übertragenen
    Sinne, meine hochverehrten Damen!

  7. #7
    King Gambrinus's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: "A View on Günter Grass - Why we need an open debate on Israel"

    Quote Originally Posted by athanaric View Post
    Ah, Günter Grass, the guy who forgot he was a member of the Waffen-SS, and went on to lecture Israel (as well as Germany and the US of course) on moral issues.



    This thread is doomed...
    Fear not, crusader, Prester John will save you from the wrath of the Devil.

  8. #8
    DimeBagHo's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: "A View on Günter Grass - Why we need an open debate on Israel"

    Quote Originally Posted by The Illusionist View Post



    This thread is doomed...
    That doesn't really apply to threads about actual Nazi's.

  9. #9

    Default Re: "A View on Günter Grass - Why we need an open debate on Israel"

    Quote Originally Posted by DimeBagHo View Post
    That doesn't really apply to threads about actual Nazis.
    That's what I was trying to say.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: "A View on Günter Grass - Why we need an open debate on Israel"

    The poetic form is interesting because the "Why" in the initial self-questioning allows more than one association. One way in Hebrew for saying "why" is "how!" "How did it come that!" The writer could have considered the implications that come with reading "why?" as "how!" He probably knew what he did and that's why the poem contains a problematic side.
    Last edited by Blau&Gruen; April 08, 2012 at 06:42 AM.
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    Default Re: "A View on Günter Grass - Why we need an open debate on Israel"

    Quote Originally Posted by DimeBagHo View Post
    That doesn't really apply to threads about actual Nazi's.
    But any thread that discusses how "Nazi" somebody is is doomed...

    In fact, any thread about Israeli war crimes that goes off-topic to discuss the "Nazi" in somebody is doomed.
    Last edited by King Gambrinus; April 08, 2012 at 07:32 AM.
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    Default Re: "A View on Günter Grass - Why we need an open debate on Israel"

    (Attempt of) a translation of the passage that initiated among others the debate:

    Es ist das behauptete Recht auf den Erstschlag,
    der das von einem Maulhelden unterjochte
    und zum organisierten Jubel gelenkte
    iranische Volk auslöschen könnte,
    weil in dessen Machtbereich der Bau
    einer Atombombe vermutet wird.
    It is the claimed right for the first strike
    which could extinguish the by a braggart subjugated
    and to organized jubilation guided
    Iranian people,
    because the construction of a nuclear bomb
    in its territory has been suspected.
    Grass has been irrealism ascribed and irresponsability by saying so.
    Last edited by Blau&Gruen; April 08, 2012 at 08:01 AM.
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    Default Re: "A View on Günter Grass - Why we need an open debate on Israel"

    Quote Originally Posted by The Illusionist View Post
    But any thread that discusses how "Nazi" somebody is is doomed...

    In fact, any thread about Israeli war crimes that goes off-topic to discuss the "Nazi" in somebody is doomed.
    Then I guess this thread was doomed from the first post, because it is impossible to sensibly discuss the opinions of a former Nazi about Israel without noting that he used to be a Nazi. Are we supposed to just pretend that he wasn't a Nazi?

  14. #14

    Default Re: "A View on Günter Grass - Why we need an open debate on Israel"

    Quote Originally Posted by DimeBagHo View Post
    That doesn't really apply to threads about actual Nazi's.
    He was drafted into an SS Panzer Division in his teens after being refused to serve in the Reichsmarine after having been drafted into the Reichsarbeitsdients before that, and he served for barely 3 months until he was wounded.

    So the accusation that he's a 'Nazi' is a very disgusting, slanderous one, unless you're also willing to accuse pretty much every German who served in any of the country's armed forces at the time, that is to say, most able-bodied males at the time.
    Quote Originally Posted by A.J.P. Taylor
    Peaceful agreement and government by consent are possible only on the basis of ideas common to all parties; and these ideas must spring from habit and from history. Once reason is introduced, every man, every class, every nation becomes a law unto itself; and the only right which reason understands is the right of the stronger. Reason formulates universal principles and is therefore intolerant: there can be only one rational society, one rational nation, ultimately one rational man. Decisions between rival reasons can be made only by force.





    Quote Originally Posted by H.L Spieghel
    Is het niet hogelijk te verwonderen, en een recht beklaaglijke zaak, Heren, dat alhoewel onze algemene Dietse taal een onvermengde, sierlijke en verstandelijke spraak is, die zich ook zo wijd als enige talen des werelds verspreidt, en die in haar bevang veel rijken, vorstendommen en landen bevat, welke dagelijks zeer veel kloeke en hooggeleerde verstanden uitleveren, dat ze nochtans zo zwakkelijk opgeholpen en zo weinig met geleerdheid verrijkt en versiert wordt, tot een jammerlijk hinder en nadeel des volks?
    Quote Originally Posted by Miel Cools
    Als ik oud ben wil ik zingen,
    Oud ben maar nog niet verrot.
    Zoals oude bomen zingen,
    Voor Jan Lul of voor hun god.
    Ook een oude boom wil reizen,
    Bij een bries of bij een storm.
    Zelfs al zit zijn kruin vol luizen,
    Zelfs al zit zijn voet vol worm.
    Als ik oud ben wil ik zingen.

    Cò am Fear am measg ant-sluaigh,
    A mhaireas buan gu bràth?
    Chan eil sinn uileadh ach air chuart,
    Mar dhìthein buaile fàs,
    Bheir siantannan na bliadhna sìos,
    'S nach tog a' ghrian an àird.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jörg Friedrich
    When do I stop being a justified warrior? When I've killed a million bad civilians? When I've killed three million bad civilians? According to a warsimulation by the Pentagon in 1953 the entire area of Russia would've been reduced to ruins with 60 million casualties. All bad Russians. 60 million bad guys. By how many million ''bad'' casualties do I stop being a knight of justice? Isn't that the question those knights must ask themselves? If there's no-one left, and I remain as the only just one,

    Then I'm God.
    Quote Originally Posted by Louis Napoleon III, Des Idees Napoleoniennes
    Governments have been established to aid society to overcome the obstacles which impede its march. Their forms have been varied according to the problems they have been called to cure, and according to character of the people they have ruled over. Their task never has been, and never will be easy, because the two contrary elements, of which our existence and the nature of society is composed, demand the employment of different means. In view of our divine essence, we need only liberty and work; in view of our mortal nature, we need for our direction a guide and a support. A government is not then, as a distinguished economist has said, a necessary ulcer; it is rather the beneficent motive power of all social organisation.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfgang Held
    I walked into those baracks [of Buchenwald concentrationcamp], in which there were people on the three-layered bunkbeds. But only their eyes were alive. Emaciated, skinny figures, nothing more but skin and bones. One thinks that they are dead, because they did not move. Only the eyes. I started to cry. And then one of the prisoners came, stood by me for a while, put a hand on my shoulder and said to me, something that I will never forget: ''Tränen sind denn nicht genug, mein Junge,
    Tränen sind denn nicht genug.''

    Jajem ssoref is m'n korew
    E goochem mit e wenk, e nar mit e shtomp
    Wer niks is, hot kawsones

  15. #15
    DimeBagHo's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: "A View on Günter Grass - Why we need an open debate on Israel"

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Croccer View Post
    So the accusation that he's a 'Nazi' is a very disgusting, slanderous one, unless you're also willing to accuse pretty much every German who served in any of the country's armed forces at the time, that is to say, most able-bodied males at the time.
    Apparently he described himself as an "enthusiastic" member of the Hitler Youth, and he volunteered for military service at a time when it looked like Germany was definitely going to lose. So no, he wasn't in the same position as "pretty much every German who served in any of the country's armed forces". That was the lie he maintained for sixty years when he pretended that he had been drafted into an anti-aircraft unit. But the truth was he believed in the Nazi cause, volunteered for service, and actually served with the SS. That seems quite relevant to me. It also strikes me as relevant that when Germany was run by Nazis fighting against democracy, he thought war was a great idea, but when Germany was a democracy trying to hold the line against totalitarian communism, he decided it was a good time to be a pacifist. And now, when the Jews are looking at the possibility of a second holocaust he decides that the real problem is them having an independent deterrent. It is also notable that he focused his criticism on Israel's second strike capacity - the submarines supplied by Germany - the only weapons that could give Israel a significant ability to strike back if they are the victims of a nuclear attack.

    From the New Republic (the whole thing is worth a read).

    The poem is, to put it bluntly, morally obtuse and politically embarrassing. Having reversed the arrows of causation, Grass says nothing about the hatred of Israel that the Iranian regime has publicly expressed since 1979, about its specific threats to “wipe it off the map” in the past decade, or the vicious Jew-hatred that is a steady diet of its propaganda. Apparently he has not read the most recent reports of the International Atomic Energy Agency that confirm Iran’s efforts to build nuclear weapons. Nor does Grass understand that the purpose of missile-carrying submarines is to ensure the credibility of a second strike should Iran or any other power attack Israel first. These submarines are essential for a stable system of deterrence. No Israeli leader has spoken about delivering a first strike with nuclear weapons that would “extinguish” the Iranian people. All of this comes from a man who was “silent” for five decades of his very successful literary career about the fact that as a young man he was a member of the Waffen SS at the end of World War II.

    The idea, put forward by Grass, that there is a taboo in German intellectual and political life about criticizing Israel and its policies has been a favorite theme of Israel’s critics since the 1960s. But the taboo does not exist. There has been no silence in Germany, especially in such places as Der Spiegel or the Süddeutsche Zeitung, not to mention among intellectual and political forces to their left, for many decades. On the contrary, hostility to both Israel and the United States, and the view that these two countries are the major threat to world peace, became embedded in the German left-wing and left-liberal mainstream many decades ago. In this sense, Grass’s diatribe is part of a long established conventional wisdom. It takes neither courage nor intelligence to run with the mob. Grass’s poem seeks to make the mob yell even louder.

    Fortunately, Grass has a significant number of critics in Germany. Henryk Broder, author of a recent and incisive polemic entitled “Forget Auschwitz: On the Final Solution of the Israel Question,” correctly describes Grass as the “prototype of an educated anti-Semite,” one who presents himself as a friend of the Jews yet seeks to undermine Israel’s capacity to defend itself. Richard Herzinger, in a withering essay in Die Welt, dissects the strategic ignorance in Grass’s poem and compares Grass’s argument to Nazism’s presentation of the Jews as advocates of mass murder. Josef Joffe in Die Zeit sets the record straight regarding the German delivery of a submarine to Israel and sees the Grass publication as evidence that the anti-Semitic argument that “the Jew is guilty” is again part of public discussion in Germany. Grass critics also include Frank Schirmmacher, the editor of the cultural pages of the Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung; Clemens Wergin, in Die Welt; and Michael Naumann and Malte Lehming, both in the Berlin-based Tagesspiegel.
    Last edited by DimeBagHo; April 09, 2012 at 10:04 PM.

  16. #16
    Captain Arrrgh!'s Avatar I'z in yer grass
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    Default Re: "A View on Günter Grass - Why we need an open debate on Israel"

    Quote Originally Posted by The Illusionist View Post



    This thread is doomed...
    Why the blazes are these damned card games so expensive? I don't understand kids these days.

  17. #17
    Blau&Gruen's Avatar Civitate
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    Default Re: "A View on Günter Grass - Why we need an open debate on Israel"

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Arrrgh! View Post
    Why the blazes are these damned card games so expensive? I don't understand kids these days.

    You need not to forget the insurance costs.
    Patronized by Ozymandias
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  18. #18
    .L.'s Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: "A View on Günter Grass - Why we need an open debate on Israel"

    Quote Originally Posted by athanaric View Post
    Ah, Günter Grass, the guy who forgot he was a member of the Waffen-SS, and went on to lecture Israel (as well as Germany and the US of course) on moral issues.


    And I've seen a better version of that, er, poem of his:



    Also, this:
    He wasn't in the SS by choice, he was drafted, he wanted to join the navy, it's not like he worked in a death camp.

  19. #19

    Default Re: "A View on Günter Grass - Why we need an open debate on Israel"

    Quote Originally Posted by .L. View Post
    He wasn't in the SS by choice, he was drafted, he wanted to join the navy, it's not like he worked in a death camp.
    You know, sometimes it pays to read more than the first page of a thread before commenting. Because otherwise, you'll be just regurgitating stuff that's already been said by others.

  20. #20
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    Default Re: "A View on Günter Grass - Why we need an open debate on Israel"

    Quote Originally Posted by athanaric View Post
    You know, sometimes it pays to read more than the first page of a thread before commenting. Because otherwise, you'll be just regurgitating stuff that's already been said by others.
    Some things need to be said again when people can't get it through their brains.

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