Congratz and some suggestions!

[MamlukWarrior]

Hello,

I have been playing quite a lot this mod and i have to said its a really great mod, it is clearly well made and the level of detail is very good. I have played 3 campaigns just playing a few years on each. Currently i am playing one with the WRE and i have to said its challenging specially to bring ur economy to positive numbers and dealing with the barbarian hordes. But i have a few suggestions(friendly ones, i don't mean to criticize is just a small suggestion) for the mod. First i really need it would be nice to tone down those Frankiska Heriban guys, the franks start with i think 10 stacks having 5 or 6 of them with silver chevrons or multiple bronze ones, those guys can instantly route almost any unit after throwing their axes, i mean i am not an historian or anything close but were those axes really that effective in reality? I've seen these guys tore apart my comitatenses like if they where some kind of cheap militia.
Also i have a question, is there any terrain advantage in the mod? I ask this cuz ive seen some of my strongest infantry or cavalry having problems dealing even with cheap levies(while my unit is uphill).
Anyways i really enjoy the mod, i have a cdt every now and then but since my computer is not a gaming computer is understandable and im sure it is because of all the units and stuff on screen. Congratulations once again u guys really created a great mod! And please dont take my suggestions as negative criticism.

[Chelchal]

I think the concern over the Franks is a fair one...personally I find the best option is to separate their infantry units, weaken them with archers before finally running them down.

[MamlukWarrior]

well i usually try to make them attack me so i can pepper them down with javelin fire but they seem immune to anything, in my opinion the starting stacks should be toned down a bit, when i was playing as the saxons one of those units handled 3 comitatus, and it was surrounded it took sometime before they routed it and still my comitatus suffered considerable losses. I have seen those franks instantly route equites catafractarii after one round of their missiles ha!

[julianus heraclius]

Hi Mamluk Warrior, I'm glad you are enjoying the mod, and yes it is intense with hordes of barbarians attacking the Rhine frontier quickly. The Frankiska Heriban axemen were always dangerous as their throwing axes could split a shield. I have always found it is best to try and soften them up with long range missile fire and skirmishing cavalry. Also try to keep your quality troops in reserve and use your local limitanei to take some of the damage first.

Also, at this point in the 4th century there was no western or eastern empires as such. This is why we have, for example in the 355AD campaign, Julian's faction or Constantius II faction, etc.

Cheers

[MamlukWarrior]

@Julianus, thanks for your response well the reason i use my elites is because i hate having my first line cut like butter with a hot knife by those bastards! haha it causes a big mess a long the lines! i know how to play and all, i was just surprised how effective their missile attack is.

[Diocle]

were those axes really that effective in reality? I've seen these guys tore apart my comitatenses like if they where some kind of cheap militia.

Very interesting question here. I quote the work of Gut Halsall, published on a very serious wargame magazine, it is one of the best series of texts about the Merovingian Franks that I read:

"...The classic francisca design featured the famous 'upswung S' shape of the top edge of the bIade. Evidence of its use for throwing has been found in the fact lhat many examples have lost the very uppermost point of the blade. This has been shown to run a strong risk of breaking off when thrown into a hard target Iike a shieid. The francisca required a certain amount of practice and skill to use, as there were obviousIy only certain points, during its rotating flight-path to the target, when the blade was in such a position to strike and bite into the target; at other times the target would be hit by the wooden handie (bruising, but not fataI). If the blade did hit, though, its penetration power was quite impressive. Tests show it couId burst through 2.4cm of pinewood (Dahmlos 1977; Périn, Fourni & Joubert 1984, p.23; Périn & Feffer 1987, vol.2, p.89)."

So the answer to your question sadly is: yes if well used the 'francisca' had really a great penetrtion power and its impact on the enemy line, could be quite devastating, allowing the Franks' firsts ranks to close the contact with a very good advantage.

- About the numbers of the 'francisca' armed units, well this is only speculation, because the first author to mention the weapon is Sidonius Apollinaris in the late V century and Ammianus Marcellinus who is the author who describes the Gaulic Campaign, being an officer of Julianus, does not nominate the 'francisca'.
The weapon appears in the Frankish burials exactly in the years of Sidonius, that is the late V century, and this could suggest that in our timeframe the weapon was not extensively used, but we must remamber that the late V century is the time in which the Franks started to practicise frurnished burial.
In conclusion there are not many evidences that can give us any kind of safe and definitive information about the numbers and the effective use of the weapon in the IV century.

Here again Guy Halsall:
"...Actually the origin of the francisca is obscure (Dahmlos 1977 is the best introduction to the study of the francisca). Hatchets are known from fourth-century east European 'Gothic' contexts (Heather & Matthews 1991, p.88) but are unlikely to have provided the prototype. Examples are unknown from the Frankish homeland, but that could be because the Franks did not practice fumished burial until after they had settled in the Roman empire. On the other hand, Ammianus Marcellinus does not describe the Franks as using these axes; the first description of a Frank with an axe comes from the late fifth century with Sidonius Apollinaris' description. This is also about the time that the characteristic francisca appears archaeologically. Perhaps the francisca was developed while the Franks were settling northem GauI. Axes are known from late Roman weapon burials in the region. Written sources also suggest that the axe (bipennis or securis) was a late Roman weapon. Dahmlos suggests, on the other hand, that it may have developed from a kind of throwing club, fo which one exemple is known from the Frankish homelands."

[MamlukWarrior]

Ok thanks! Once again it was just a recommendation as ur article proposes, the axe was effective IF it connected properly so during the battle and all that i dont know how easy or hard must have been, anyways its always nice to learn something new!

[Diocle]

Yes it was probably not easy, but anyway the axe was launched just before closing the contact, and the impact was sufficent to disorder the first enemy lines.
I read that the axe was found also in burials of mounted noble warriors.....so we only have to thank the Gods if julianus did not add this damned weapon also to the cavalry!!!......

Images of 'francisca' from archeological finds:

[IMG]
Uploaded with ImageShack.us[/IMG]

[julianus heraclius]

Mamluk Warrior, I'm curious as to what settings you are playing, especially for battles, as the recommended setting is medium as that is what all units are balanced against. If you play on hard or very hard then AI units get extra morale bonuses making them very hard to defeat.

[MamlukWarrior]

Im playing h/m, ha i dont believe in giving the ai bonuses cuz i just feel its really unbalanced! hahaha i know it sounds crazy but believe me i have seen them insta rout generals! Also i wanted to suggest, i know the music mod is done by someone else but that person should consider some of the songs from joan of arc soundtrack(the one of milla jovovich) some of the songs are really dramatic and could add for battles, i really enjoyed the new soundtrack it fits! Also is nice how the cavalry is not so overpowered like in other mods but also i think maybe the morale on some units should be checked, is not nice to auto rout whole armies immidiately!

[Diocle]

Can I suggest only one little thing? The armies in the Late Antiquity depended very much on Leadership, that is the Romans and the barbarian tribes should be lead by good Generals or Warlords, if not the low quality of the tribal troops and the lesser quality of the Romans troops could make them very easy to rout.

In this age the Roman army had to be lead from the front ranks, the Emperor Julianus at Strasbourg saved the day rallying himself the flying troops! The second time, in his Persian expedition he died trying to repeat the same action!

So this could be sad for the player, but the Mod perfectly protray the History of the IV century.

MamlukWarrior, the gameplay in SAJ is quite different from many other TW Mods but I can assure you that its historical accracy is almost perfect,...no I'm wrong: It is perfect!

[MamlukWarrior]

Oh my friend, im not questioning the mod in any single way. It was just a question, thanks for clarifying though I know u have made tons of research and have read many many books about the subject. Yeah i can imagine the morale, at those times was really low even for the most elite troops if not lead properly it is just that I dont like the feeling of vanilla rtw when units automatically routed, but at the same time when my best generals are leading the units rarely rout, actually i havent had a rout with my main generals even when the units are loosing men fast. Anyways haha thanks for your response it was funny to read it and once again good job for this mod! It has already stole many hours of my time!!

[Diocle]

You and me have only to thank julianus and Joar and all the people who built the historical research for this Masterpiece!

I'm only a player and a man who loves the Late Roman History and trys to built in his mind an image of that age!

IMHO, One of the best thing in IBFD Mods' series, is the fact that they stimulate the desire to read about the subject!

[MamlukWarrior]

True that! I honestly dont like Rome, while they conquering everyone but the late Rome has some magic on it! By the way is there a way to permanently cancel the alliance with the other half of the empire in order to invade them in Italy? Its hard to stay on red numbers with ur economy all the time!