My Praetorian Velites! (balance issue?)

**dearmad** · June 13, 2006, 09:38 AM

Velites are cheap. They cost little to upkeep. They advance in skills more rapidly then other units. They have incredible endurance. They are faster than other footsoldiers.

I use them a LOT in DM... they have a 7 attack! And 17 armor. Against greek hoplites they are thrashing them. My velites own all. And since they get 2 to 3 silver chevrons in a few battles, and replacing their casualties is dirt cheap... they've become as armored and powerful as post-Marian reform units. My Velites (all 12 uinits of them in my army) are my frontline troops, causing fear and mayhem and panic in the enemy. Their spears are more deadly than pilum now, their attack has *always* been more deadly than Principes. And now their armor due to their incredible skill is on a par with heavily armored early units (24+). They hold the line, don't break, and own the field.

Maybe theiy're too cheap to buy, too cheap to maintain, or too powerful in attack (7 vs. the intial 5 other roman foot units get). Or maybe their armor should drop from the initial 17 to something like 12 or 14 so they should take massive casualties against any armored opponenet they face in h/h combat.

Or maybe you find them balanced as is?

**Shaggy1973** · June 13, 2006, 10:42 AM

You are taking a very literal view of the attack and defence values. Try your velites against hastati in a custom battle and tell me who wins? Dont have them both as generals tho as they will receive 2HP bonus. My money is on the hastati, but its just a guess.

**DARTH VADER** · June 13, 2006, 11:01 AM

type roman velite
dictionary roman_velite ; Velites
category infantry
class missile
voice_type Light_1
soldier roman_velite, 40, 0, 0.2
mount_effect elephant +18, chariot +18
attributes sea_faring, hide_improved_forest, hide_long_grass, can_sap, very_hardy, can_swim
formation 1.6, 2, 3.2, 4, 3, square
stat_health 1, 0
stat_pri 9, 2, javelin, 50, 9, thrown, archery, piercing, spear, 0 ,15
stat_pri_attr thrown, ap, area
stat_sec 7, 2, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, sword, 0 ,0.6
stat_sec_attr no
stat_pri_armour 2, 12, 4, flesh
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 1
stat_ground 2, 0, 3, 0
stat_mental 11, normal, untrained
stat_charge_dist 40
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 270, 170, 30, 40, 270
ownership roman

this is the truth. Written.

Attack is lower bcs the fatality is only 0.6
low morale, defense based on agility not armour (only 2)
A really good unit to use as auxiliary...do not know what difficulty you play.

Indeed can be a much better one through campaign bonuses or as a siege wall defender.
But in open fields are doomed if in prolonged melee.

Although in DarthMod skirmishers have a secret attribute.
Their light mass makes them even more agile and expanding making slower units to isolate from each other and then kill them with their numbers.
Watch how a unit of skirmishers expands when fighting for example a cavalry it can reach 3-4 times the size of the starting unit in space.
Cavalry units will win but will lose some in prolonged combat fighting 2-3 enemies per unit and isolated.

**Narakir** · June 13, 2006, 11:02 AM

Well I'm not sure velites match any cavalry charge

. But if they are so powerfull why do you use them in masses, pwn everything with them and complains after that ? It's like if I'm were able to field an entire army of 3 gold chevrons armenian archers cataphracts and complaining that it's too easy

.

**Shaggy1973** · June 13, 2006, 02:16 PM

Cant speak for darth but i prefer guys like dearmad to flag up possible errors like this (except it isnt an error) as there is so much detail in RTW it is often difficult to spot them otherwise.

**DARTH VADER** · June 13, 2006, 02:23 PM

And when they express their opinion fully with reasoning it is more than acceptable. Posts like this have evolved DarthMod to this state.

**dearmad** · June 13, 2006, 06:52 PM

@narakir: actually its not like that at all, it's *like* I mention that a unit I expected to not be so powerful has evolved over my current game to become my frontline troopers.

@shaggy: the problem with the test you suggest is that it's irrelevent to the game. The way any general would use velites is to outmaneuver and harrass the enemy, so that means you send two units of them at the enemy two units of hastati. Remember, the hastati will NEVER be able to touch your FASTER and better endurance velites... in fact eventually you'll be facing EXHAUSTED hastatii versus WARMED-UP velites if you are careful about it. So you then split them and surround the hastatii but don't waste javelins... because velites are cheaper you send your THIRD unit to the newly exposed flank of the hastatii and lay waste to them. They break... you surround the last remaining hastatii and charge in with swords to kill him. Because their armor is not as good behind (shield) those Velites kill a LOT of them (superior attack value rmemeber?) and gain magnificent experience (velite xp goes up faster than other units in RTW- seems hardcoded?). Rinse and repeat. A 1:1 versus hastatii is NOT a realworld test- 3:2 or even 4:2 odds is more real world as THAT is how many you will field given their costs. And that is how they are used effectively anyway. Eventually you'll need to test double silver chevron velites versus inexperienced hastatii... and it'll only get worse for the enemy.

In general:
In a 1:1 match versus armored greek hoplites my experienced velites kick tail and then look around hungry to eat more. I didn't plan on this happening it just occured over the course of the game years as I noticed how my mainline troops never saw combat because my velites had alreadyrouted the entire greek army. I was used to playing the Scipii and needing velites to deal with elephants and so when Is witched to Brutii I had a habit of using them to screen the enemy and disarray them before my mainline engaged... however, my mainline engages only about 25% of the time now. And my velites are nearing goldbar status which means it's only going to get easier for them.

The other unbalancing issue to velites is that due to their inexpense they are cheap to replace and rebuild after battles, so letting half of them die is no big deal- and you can replace them just about anywhere, whereas if you lose some II cohorts- you need to replace them at a built-up city, not the backwater dive you just conquered. SO you can keep moving forward.

**dearmad** · June 13, 2006, 06:54 PM

Oh, playing VH campaign, H battles.

**Narakir** · June 14, 2006, 11:52 AM

@narakir: actually its not like that at all, it's *like* I mention that a unit I expected to not be so powerful has evolved over my current game to become my frontline troopers.

Ok that's a misunderstanding, I apologise.

Maybe the good thing to solve the problem is to nerf the skirmisher morale but I'm not sure it's the best way because the AI already sucks at using skirmishers. I always cancel them by sending my cavarly in front of the ennemy force, with the auto retreat, they just fall back without trowing any javs, then my army advance, the melee comes, they fall back again, dispatch from the main force and then my flanking cavalry destroy them easly.

@Darth
You mention this number in stats "0.6" at the end of stat_sec/pri line as "fatality" what is it realy ? attack speed ? critical chances ?

**Shaggy1973** · June 14, 2006, 12:11 PM

chance to kill.

deramad your argument is confused. you state velites are front line troops and then go back on yourself and say you cant use them as front line troops, but when used as skirmishers and in greater numbers they win. Remember that although they are cheap, and you can recruit more, there are only so many slots in a full stack. You would not get far having them filled with velites not matter what the price.

**dearmad** · June 14, 2006, 06:00 PM

I'm disappointed in the arguments here. The fact is- in my game with my velites, they own the field now on 1:1 fights due to their superior experience combined with already high attack ratings or whatever else is going on. The fact is (not an argument) they defeat greek armored hoplites in h/h combat. I'm not interested in why this happens or putting forth another theory to be shot down. It happens. It's a fact.

Darth can deal with it or not, but expect no more input from me.

Another *fact* I've noticed a lto of now is that the Darth formations don't appear to work well anymore- the AI advances piecemeal now- it's very easy since the latest darth formations to pick off isolated AI units; the AI army is no longer staying together. No arguement will be responded to on this, sorry, I'm actually playing the DM game and experiencing this every time. Regardless of the make-up of my own army- velites, archers, heavy infantry, cavalry, all of them seem to make the AI advance a few of his men to get slaughtered.

**Shaggy1973** · June 15, 2006, 03:17 AM

Sigh.

You cant start a debate and then decide to withdraw from it cos you dont think the arguments are up to standard. With regards the formations, I too think there are issues. I think the AI is too obsessed with trying to flank. Seemingly the whole army tries to flank at times and leaves the centre free. Good point, a more cohesive line if achievable would be better. I also think a flat line of phalanx stretched out long would be better than a double line. Perhaps they could do with a little simplyfying and just allowing the AIs units to fight one to one rather than trying to beat the human with tactics. I'd love to see an all out charge by barbrian units, a none use of any tactics if you like.

With regards your velites, just do the battle test. Use your velites like praetorians and tell me if it works. Start a custom battle with 7 exp velites vs hastati and turn off skirmish mode. Adn stop being so precious over yourself, nobody is denying your claims, just asking for you to test it. You can even test it on medium if you like, have an even playing field.

**dearmad** · June 15, 2006, 07:19 PM

Shaggy, before I wste 30 minutes doing that answer this: How does an *artificial* test measure what happens to the velitesIN the GAME? My velites now *IN a GAME* beat back line after line of greek armored hoplites.

Artificial tests of 1:1 battles do not measure effects IN a game... maneauver is a PART of battle. Moving faster and flanking around a unit in GROUPS (not 1:1) is how battles play out. You never fight 1:1 battles.

sigh... think about it. A group of 5 velites will kick ass over 5 hoplies and/or 5 hastatii every time. THIS I've done in the simulator. It's easy. The AI fractiurtes, my velites surround (faster, not winded, 7 attack vs. 5) and the hastatii/hoplites route WHILE surrounded and die to a man. Move on to next stupid Hastatii unit. Do you understand this now?

**Shaggy1973** · June 16, 2006, 03:24 AM

Yes you are good at exploiting the bad AI. However, your velites are not a replacement for line troops (praetorians) is my point. You have read the attack value of 7 and assume that is all that influences their proficiency in melee. It is not, there are many other factors, and so I am trying to tell you despite having high attack value and high overall defence value, they would not last long in a straight battle with hastati.

Your use of them in game brings many many other factors into play, bad AI splitting and running after troops they have no hope fo catching. Poor AI turning their back on missile units. Better stamina than heavy troops. etc etc - these arent really balance issues.

If in a straight fight, the 7 exp velites beat the hastati at holding the battle line, this would be a balance issue. Understand now?

**dearmad** · June 16, 2006, 05:53 PM

Shaggy, twice you've accused me of assuming something. Do you know what the word means? I am *assuming* nothing. I was *reporting* factually how effective my velites were in h/h combat versus other frontline troops. The reason I even mentioned the 7 attack was as a *suggestion* to darth on how they could be trimmed back in power a bit.

This is a balance issue as velites are overly powerful in the game- an army comprised of 1/2 velites half other troops is overly powerful and cheap allowing the player to strategically have many more armies of effective killers ont he loose versus the AI. Do oyu undserstand how that IS a balance issue? Stop thinking 1:1 battle editor testing, start thinking *balance the game* issues. Think bigger.

Also you are overly focused on one stat. Expand your thinking. Look at the gestalt effect that the various superior qualities a velite has combine to make it more *efficient* and *effective* to field large armies of them versus smaller armies of hastatii/principes.

I am amazed at your willingness to debate theory without actually touching on the straight facts as I have encountered them in two campaign games now.

**Shaggy1973** · June 16, 2006, 06:40 PM

I take back my earlier comments dearmad. I dont thank you for your views when put forward as you do. I have come across you in other threads before and you are argumentative at best. "Discussion" ended until you can learn how to communicate without antagonising.

**John I Tzimisces** · June 16, 2006, 06:47 PM

Everyone chill. Now.

**John I Tzimisces** · June 16, 2006, 07:16 PM

I'm closing this thread. It oozes of pointless antagonism in the face of the fact that Darth himself has shown stats showing the inferiority of velites. OF COURSE something with 7 experience is going to generally own. Give the opposing unit 7 experience and see what happens. Egads.