[Amendment] Patronisation waiting period adjustment

[StealthFox]

I'll listen to other arguments and read more of the old attempts before making my decision to support or not, but it seems to me that the two main arguments against this are: (1) Citizens should be patient and (2) Citizens need three months to learn what goes on in the Curia.

1. How is citizens being patient beneficial? This waiting period for patronization just as easily creates uninterested and apathetic citizens, which ultimately leads to decreased participation within the Curia.

2. What in the Curia takes three months to learn? Regarding patronization, anyone can familiarize themselves with the process by looking at the Antechamber. You don't need to be a citizen to know how the process works, so there really is no sudden revelation or epiphany by becoming a citizen and waiting three months.

[Boustrophedon]

I'll listen to other arguments and read more of the old attempts before making my decision to support or not, but it seems to me that the two main arguments against this are: (1) Citizens should be patient and (2) Citizens need three months to learn what goes on in the Curia.

1. How is citizens being patient beneficial? This waiting period for patronization just as easily creates uninterested and apathetic citizens, which ultimately leads to decreased participation within the Curia.

2. What in the Curia takes three months to learn? Regarding patronization, anyone can familiarize themselves with the process by looking at the Antechamber. You don't need to be a citizen to know how the process works, so there really is no sudden revelation or epiphany by becoming a citizen and waiting three months.

This is my opinion as well. I was asked by Brittanicus for patronization about a month and half after he became a citizen (if memory serves me well) and it seemed ridiculous that we'd have to wait for another two months. I wasn't impatient because in the end I only recently applied so it's not like I couldn't wait. It just didn't make sense to me. Most applicants have read the threads and posts in the Curia before applying I think.

I also have to disagree strongly that it is the patron's job in those three months to explain the way the Curia works. I can name several patrons who don't do this. Does this make them bad patrons to their clients? No, because it's not their task. If you do have any real questions they should be addressed to the Curator, after you yourself have digged around a bit in the archives etc..

Support

[Okmin]

^Agreed.

Also support.

[Bolkonsky]

Support.

Why? Because the CdeC is the ultimate judge of Citizen applications. If someone wants to choose a patron that hasn't been around for a long time, that's their problem, not mine. We can't protect people from themselves. We need to make this stuff more accessible.

[Lord William]

Support

[SonofPeverel]

I oppose.

Edit:The three month period is like a freshman having to clean the lockerroom on a varsity football team. Its just part of being the rookie.

[Magicman2051]

Support.

[Saint Nicholas]

No I don't think so. I don't want to see the Antechamber flooded with 30 applications because new Citizens want to patronise everybody asap. 3 months is probably a good amount of time to develop an interest in patronising someone, following their progress, observing their posts, maybe even chatting with them about the process, gauging their interest. Think of it as 3 months worth of research, much better and more thorough than 1.

[Dark Storm]

No I don't think so. I don't want to see the Antechamber flooded with 30 applications because new Citizens want to patronise everybody asap. 3 months is probably a good amount of time to develop an interest in patronising someone, following their progress, observing their posts, maybe even chatting with them about the process, gauging their interest. Think of it as 3 months worth of research, much better and more thorough than 1.

On that matter how can you possibly say that Citizens do look at an applicant for three months? Some might see an applicant and wait for 6 months to approach them, whereas some might do it in a matter of weeks. That does not mean that the applicant whose Patron has approached them after two weeks is any worse than the applicant whose patron approached them after 6 months, indeed the former may be more likely to get the citizenship had he made such an impression so fast. Another matter is the antechamber being flooded, is this the right attitude? It should not matter how many applications there are at once, what should matter is the quality and as has been said, the quality of the applicant should not be judged on the age of the patron in Citizen terms, indeed it might be that those 30 are all very worthy candidates and it would be unfair to deprive them of citizenship.

[Akaie]

Personally, I'd like the ability to patronize earlier. In general, however, I understand the point being made about one month not allowing enough time for a citizen to mature, amongst other points.

With the string of failures of amendments ranging from no probation periods to a one month probation period, would anyone be eager for more of a compromise: two months before a citizen can patronize.

[Navajo Joe]

Support,
Having read all the pros and cons, I see no justification to leave it at three months, lets go with 1 month.

I would hope that when CDEC look at a citizenship application, they will look at the merits of the applicant and it should not be based on how long the existing citizen as been a member

[Ishan]

This is a complete waste of time, i have been here for quite some time and i have never seen any other citizen complain about the waiting period except the new ones who wanted to patronize asap. 3 months is a very short time imo & we're trying to fix something which isn't broken.

Like i earlier said, saying that this 3 month limit deprives worthy candidates is a weak argument. Post in the curia openly about such a candidate & if he is what he is, then dozens of citizens will offer him citizenship, not to mention one can also tell his patron to do it. I have always told citizens who're my friends to patronize such people even though i could've done it myself. So is expanding & building of your own treeline so much necessary that one can't even wait for 3 bloody months?

There is no problem with the current rule\tradition, 3 months is a reasonable time, he gets to see around approximately 30 applications (3 weeks = 10 candidates). He gets to know the mindset of current CdeC, what they like\dislike about Modders\Debaters\or anything else. Gets ample time to read whatever he wants in antechamber, disciplinary cases made public to form his own opinion about the matter. Gets ample time to get to know other fellow citizens & take part in prothalamos.

Not everyone can know everything about the curia in one month. In fact i told one citizen that he shouldn't show himself as a civitate because he is not primarily a debater and explained what three badges generally meant, he's posting in this thread btw.

Also saint is right about the things being flooded in CdeC, i know how the CdeC works. If the QP forum is flooded with say 10 applications then i can guarantee that not every Councillor can have the time to research on it in one week.

Also lets us not forget the tradition & its history, the 3 month waiting period goes back to the days of patrician rank. Remember that curia was basically setup on the roman patronage system back in the days when RTW was released. In it the Patronus is the protector, sponsor, and benefactor of the client. That's the original essence of it so lets not make curia a simple meat factory.

[Boustrophedon]

This is a complete waste of time, i have been here for quite some time and i have never seen any other citizen complain about the waiting period except the new ones who wanted to patronize asap. 3 months is a very short time imo & we're trying to fix something which isn't broken.

I wish to support this bill, but I do not wish to patronize anybody anytime soon so that argument doesn't fly in my particular case.

There is no problem with the current rule\tradition, 3 months is a reasonable time, he gets to see around approximately 30 applications (3 weeks = 10 candidates). He gets to know the mindset of current CdeC, what they like\dislike about Modders\Debaters\or anything else. Gets ample time to read whatever he wants in antechamber, disciplinary cases made public to form his own opinion about the matter. Gets ample time to get to know other fellow citizens & take part in prothalamos.

You're assuming that new citizens haven't looked into the Curia before becoming citizen. This is not the case, at least not with me.

Not everyone can know everything about the curia in one month. In fact i told one citizen that he shouldn't show himself as a civitate because he is not primarily a debater and explained what three badges generally meant, he's posting in this thread btw.

Then that citizen's patron should have done a bit more explaining. It also means they were too lazy to read the FAQ threads etc.

Also saint is right about the things being flooded in CdeC, i know how the CdeC works. If the QP forum is flooded with say 10 applications then i can guarantee that not every Councillor can have the time to research on it in one week.

That's a valid point, but not enough to convince me to drop the support.

Also lets us not forget the tradition & its history, the 3 month waiting period goes back to the days of patrician rank. Remember that curia was basically setup on the roman patronage system back in the days when RTW was released. In it the Patronus is the protector, sponsor, and benefactor of the client. That's the original essence of it so lets not make curia a simple meat factory.

History and tradition matter, but the days you are talking about are long gone. Why bring them into this discussion when the client-patron bond isn't anymore what is used to be?

[Ishan]

I wish to support this bill, but I do not wish to patronize anybody anytime soon so that argument doesn't fly in my particular case.

I'm not arguing here with anyone to drop their support. I'm merely pointing out a fact that repetitive discussions which adds no significant value in curia are tiring and boring as hell.

• Bert: Hey Tobby where the hell are you going?
• Tobby: Just down a few blocks to get some pizza.
• Bert: LOl you crazy bro? Order it on the phone.
• Tobby: Oh lol didn't think of that. Thanks, otherwise it would've been a waste of my time.
• Bert: No problem.

You're new and so you will notice it pretty soon enough. Compare this thread with the modding vault idea that Nicolas Rush proposed.

You're assuming that new citizens haven't looked into the Curia before becoming citizen. This is not the case, at least not with me.

I'm not assuming but i know this, 90% of the artifexes don't know what goes around here, check my client Sonny for example he mods all day and when i offered him citizenship he didn't even knew what all of this was about. Same case when Squid offered me to apply for artifex. There are many cases like this. We're not in the minority.

Then that citizen's patron should have done a bit more explaining. It also means they were too lazy to read the FAQ threads etc.

Being unaware of somethings doesn't means that person is lazy.

That's a valid point, but not enough to convince me to drop the support.

So you're willing to drop the standards by allowing weak clients to pass? Because that will actually happen when CdeC is under heavy load.

History and tradition matter, but the days you are talking about are long gone. Why bring them into this discussion when the client-patron bond isn't anymore what is used to be?

Those days are not gone, we still have citizens like Y2day who spent an awful lot of time on their candidates, he is a true mentor and i'm a personal witness of it. Unfortunately i can't get into specifics.

Anyways if no one gives a about this then why even bother with one month. And then lets drop the patron thing also, let the candidate simply apply for citizenship.

[Boustrophedon]

You're new and so you will notice it pretty soon enough. Compare this thread with the modding vault idea that Nicolas Rush proposed.

Well yeah the ideas are different, but it's another class of proposals no?

I'm not assuming but i know this, 90% of the artifexes don't know what goes around here, check my client Sonny for example he mods all day and when i offered him citizenship he didn't even knew what all of this was about. Same case when Squid offered me to apply for artifex. There are many cases like this. We're not in the minority.

That might be so but I haven't noticed it myself. I'm willing to believe you on that matter though..

Being unaware of somethings doesn't means that person is lazy.

Yeah that was a bit harsh of me, but I meant the curator pm'd me alot of links to all you need to know as a citizen. Surely you should check those out, if not then why apply for citizen in the first place?

So you're willing to drop the standards by allowing weak clients to pass? Because that will actually happen when CdeC is under heavy load.

Of course not. It just means CdeC will have to work more and harder. You also seem to think that this bill, if it passes, means all new citizens will start patronizing like a madman. I'm not so convinced that this is what would happen. It could happen, but it's just as likely that patronizations are as frequent as before...

Those days are not gone, we still have citizens like Y2day who spent an awful lot of time on their candidates, he is a true mentor and i'm a personal witness of it. Unfortunately i can't get into specifics.

Well I'm sure that's the case with old guard members, but surely the majority of patrons don't converse or help their clients as intensely as Y seems to do? I'm just speculating though because there's no way of knowing...

Anyways if no one gives a about this then why even bother with one month.

I just didn't understand why three months is more beneficial than one month and I'm still not convinced yet by anything that has been said already.

[Dark Storm]

delete

[Bolkonsky]

Not for anything, Ishan, but the only people complaining are those who are affected by it.

[Dark Storm]

This is a complete waste of time, i have been here for quite some time and i have never seen any other citizen complain about the waiting period except the new ones who wanted to patronize asap. 3 months is a very short time imo & we're trying to fix something which isn't broken.

I do not have anyone in mind to patronise, and indeed I doubt I will for a while yet. However I still feel that three months is too long, even if by the time I do eventually patronise someone (if indeed I do) this amendment would not affect me in any way.

Like i earlier said, saying that this 3 month limit deprives worthy candidates is a weak argument. Post in the curia openly about such a candidate & if he is what he is, then dozens of citizens will offer him citizenship, not to mention one can also tell his patron to do it. I have always told citizens who're my friends to patronize such people even though i could've done it myself. So is expanding & building of your own treeline so much necessary that one can't even wait for 3 bloody months?

Admittedly it is not the strongest argument, however it is not the only argument either. Indeed you could post in the Curia also, but if you have taken the time to research a candidate, test their mods, read through their work, wouldn't it then be fairer on the citizen if they could offer that person patronage, of course they could post in the Curia, but it's whether individuals would that is the problem.

There is no problem with the current rule\tradition, 3 months is a reasonable time, he gets to see around approximately 30 applications (3 weeks = 10 candidates). He gets to know the mindset of current CdeC, what they like\dislike about Modders\Debaters\or anything else. Gets ample time to read whatever he wants in antechamber, disciplinary cases made public to form his own opinion about the matter. Gets ample time to get to know other fellow citizens & take part in prothalamos.

Personally I, before becoming accepting a Citizenship offer read through the first ten pages of the Citizen Archives to see what had been accepted and what had not. This coupled with a month of viewing current applications, as you say would be around 10 applications, would give me a good enough idea of what was looked for in a Citizen, would it not?

Not everyone can know everything about the curia in one month. In fact i told one citizen that he shouldn't show himself as a civitate because he is not primarily a debater and explained what three badges generally meant, he's posting in this thread btw.

That is a fair point, however I'm sure most would realise or know well inside a month about this kind of thing, granted there may be a few exceptions to this, however most if not all but a couple would be able to find out or work it out within their first few weeks here.

Also saint is right about the things being flooded in CdeC, i know how the CdeC works. If the QP forum is flooded with say 10 applications then i can guarantee that not every Councillor can have the time to research on it in one week.

That's saying that as soon as a Citizen is able he will patronise ten people, however a citizen becomes valid every few days and they don't go round trying to patronise that many people, indeed some of them either never do, or do it very rarely. As one month has never been tried yet how can we be possibly sure this would happen?

Also lets us not forget the tradition & its history, the 3 month waiting period goes back to the days of patrician rank. Remember that curia was basically setup on the roman patronage system back in the days when RTW was released. In it the Patronus is the protector, sponsor, and benefactor of the client. That's the original essence of it so lets not make curia a simple meat factory.

Wouldn't this point be the complete opposite of what you said earlier? About how a Citizen who can't yet patronise offers a potential candidate up to the Curia? Would not simply offering a person up to others make it more of a meat factory and less important than spending your time researching them yourself and then offering citizenship? If you know someone and you think they deserve citizenship wouldn't it mean more if you patronised them rather than just handing them over for other people to patronise who may not even know the applicant or indeed mean anything to them. (Sorry if I got the wrong end of the stick with this one =/)

[Ishan]

Lol this parachute is a knapsack.

Well yeah the ideas are different, but it's another class of proposals no?

I'm not talking about types of proposals. I'm talking about what is worth discussing and stressing ourselves over it.

Yeah that was a bit harsh of me, but I meant the curator pm'd me alot of links to all you need to know as a citizen. Surely you should check those out, if not then why apply for citizen in the first place?

He didn't apply for it, he was offered. Big difference.
When i became a citizen i only received a notification that i passed and if i ever have any questions then i can always shoot a PM about it. Maybe that was the case with him too.

Of course not. It just means CdeC will have to work more and harder. You also seem to think that this bill, if it passes, means all new citizens will start patronizing like a madman. I'm not so convinced that this is what would happen. It could happen, but it's just as likely that patronizations are as frequent as before...

I have recently seen someone quite compulsive about it so that's it why i was pointing it out. And i'm aware of how hard CdeC can and will work.

Well I'm sure that's the case with old guard members, but surely the majority of patrons don't converse or help their clients as intensely as Y seems to do? I'm just speculating though because there's no way of knowing...

There are many who won't ignore or deny helping their clients, i only mentioned Sir Y because personally i think he is a prime example & i have deep respect for him after seeing how much passionate he is about all of this. Traditions are set on prime & noble examples. And if you truly feel that this patron-client bond is history & BS, then like i earlier said why have it in the first place. You should then propose a bill so that client can directly send their application to the curator to get the badge.

I just didn't understand why three months is more beneficial than one month and I'm still not convinced yet by anything that has been said already.

3 months doesn't have any benefit other than the fact that we hope that it's more than enough time for the new citizen (& i mean completely oblivious like i was) to get to know the place and its people a little better.

I do not have anyone in mind to patronise, and indeed I doubt I will for a while yet. However I still feel that three months is too long, even if by the time I do eventually patronise someone (if indeed I do) this amendment would not affect me in any way.

Yes i know you have clarified your personal stance on this earlier in this thread, i'm aware of it.

Admittedly it is not the strongest argument, however it is not the only argument either. Indeed you could post in the Curia also, but if you have taken the time to research a candidate, test their mods, read through their work, wouldn't it then be fairer on the citizen if they could offer that person patronage, of course they could post in the Curia, but it's whether individuals would that is the problem.

Just spot the guy and get an overview in 10\20 minutes and post about it. Why do intensive research for other people? And there is nothing unfair in this except the fact that he can't have it for himself, this whole thing has only one argument that "Deserving candidates are blocked by this", which i earlier said is absurd.

If he wants him for himself in the first place then wait 3 months if you're new, Mayan prophecy is not true so no need to worry.

Personally I, before becoming accepting a Citizenship offer read through the first ten pages of the Citizen Archives to see what had been accepted and what had not. This coupled with a month of viewing current applications, as you say would be around 10 applications, would give me a good enough idea of what was looked for in a Citizen, would it not?

Yes it would, you're exceptional. In my case, i only read threads in antechamber when i had to write my application as i wasn't aware of the pattern and such. Long time after that I read threads intensely and researched on it for 6 months whilst serving as a CdeC member, other than that i don't think i had any compelling reason to read them, nor did i find any joy in reading them. But that's just me.

That is a fair point, however I'm sure most would realise or know well inside a month about this kind of thing, granted there may be a few exceptions to this, however most if not all but a couple would be able to find out or work it out within their first few weeks here.

Believe it or not there are many noobs like that and i was one of them. My interest in curia only ignited when a friend of mine who was in CdeC at that time insisted that i should apply for CdeC.

That's saying that as soon as a Citizen is able he will patronise ten people, however a citizen becomes valid every few days and they don't go round trying to patronise that many people, indeed some of them either never do, or do it very rarely. As one month has never been tried yet how can we be possibly sure this would happen?

Ripple effect. It's not about just one guy going berserk over it but all the recent ppl passing and imagine the amount of crap a guy will bring if he slips through the crack & wasn't worthy enough? For him his whole perception is based on the fact that if he can pass then everyone he thinks should pass, will also pass. And this is how standards get down, eventually such people will reach in CdeC, in which decisions are made on personal opinions yet the majority of them respect & follow some non-codified but well understood standards.

Wouldn't this point be the complete opposite of what you said earlier? About how a Citizen who can't yet patronise offers a potential candidate up to the Curia? Would not simply offering a person up to others make it more of a meat factory and less important than spending your time researching them yourself and then offering citizenship? If you know someone and you think they deserve citizenship wouldn't it mean more if you patronised them rather than just handing them over for other people to patronise who may not even know the applicant or indeed mean anything to them. (Sorry if I got the wrong end of the stick with this one =/)

Nitpicking something is quite easy, i can do this all day if i want to. My point was if i'm new and if i think that a friend of mine or someone i noticed recently deserves citizenship then i will, first of all, refer him to my patron (what more better reason to get familiar\friendly with your own patron? if not already, about the bond thing which was raised earlier) or ppl like Legio\Mega\Y2day etc whom you think are prominent patrons. That's the end of story right there. I never implied or hinted that he's a like a piece of meat to be sold in the curial market.

@fox
Yes same situation can occur with 3 month rule also but why increase the frequency? Everyone knows that new citizens are indeed enthusiastic about the whole thing so it's better for them to wait. No need to allow them to pester CdeC over it.
And this is how all the BS starts, after that someone will say that CdeC requires 3 months of wait, that should also be removed\reduced because i'm reading curia since ages so my logic is not false.

Then things like, my client was deserving, but he was rejected, he could've cleared some misunderstandings if transparency was there in CdeC. Bills, Bills, Bills. The same again and again is nauseating and nothing else.

[jimkatalanos]

tsk tsk too much debate and walls of text about a simple matter.

I will most likely abstain if this goes to vote but I would like to mention 3 things..
- @new citizens, patience is a virtue.
- patrons should help and guide their new clients.
- I'm like y2day(what ishan said about him), just ask Legio but not Jom. He is still angry with me because I've been spamming him with pics of Mirka Federer for a while now. I am sure there are more patrons like us out there.