[Amendment] Patronisation waiting period adjustment

[Dark Storm]

Proposer: Sirius Black

Support: Okmin, Bolkonsky, Decado, Lord William, Navajo Joe, Boustrophedon, m_1512

Article II. Patronisation

Any Citizen holding their rank for three months one month can patronise a Peregrinus for citizenship subject to the requirements in Article I above. The process of patronisation is as follows.

1. The patron confirms the candidate meets the requirements, OR a candidate meeting the requirements contacts a Citizen asking for patronage.
2. The nominee sends the patron a PM explaining his duties and privileges as a Citizen, and his contributions to the community.
3. In the case that the nominee wishes his citizenship application to be public: The patron posts this paragraph, along with his own, outlining why he nominated this member, in a new thread in the Quaestiones Perpetuae forum. Transparency of the Quaestiones Perpetuae forum is limited to Citizens only.
4. If the nominee wishes his citizenship application to remain private, the patron sends the paragraph, along with his own, outlining why he nominated this member, to either the Curator or a member of the Consilium de Civitate. The application itself will then be posted in the Politia.
5. After two days have passed the Curator adds a Poll lasting for five days.
6. If the nominee achieves sixty per cent of the non-abstaining votes and at least two-thirds of all CdeC members voted, he becomes a Citizen.
7. In exceptional circumstances, the period of discussion can be extended at the behest of Councilors and discretion of the Curator, to comply with the voting requirements or otherwise.
8. The Curator informs the candidate and patron of the result. If the candidate does not pass, the Curator includes the date at which they may re-apply.
9. If the candidate passes, the Curator promotes the member to Citizen.

After the conclusion of the vote, if the examination was private the applicant can make it public by PMing the Curator. If a nominee fails his vote, he is not eligible to be considered again for one month after the conclusion of the traditional seven day processing period. Members of the CdeC must neither vote nor post in applications of members they patronise.

Rationale

This is not the first time the Curia has seen this bill and, I am almost positive that if this fails, it will not be the last time you see it either. I am certain, also, that many of you have good arguments against this proposal and I shall try here to address these arguments. It may be argued that Citizens, excited by the prospect of attaining their rank, will try and patronise people as soon as they possibly can, in order to fully realise their powers, and indeed, to an extent, this is true. Yet this can only be considered true up to a point and, in all honestly, I doubt anyone would continue this excitement past the first week. Let alone, past the first month. The argument continues further though, the argument that a Citizen before three months is still unsure of what the Curia is like and still unsure of what they should and should not be doing. So what happens at three months that suddenly changes this; is there a mass epiphany where suddenly they can all realise what is right and wrong. No, there is not, of course there isn’t. After three months you are still the same person you are when you were patronised. Nothing has changed, in fact, since before you were a Citizen, and considered responsible enough to be a Citizen, nothing but your new-found abilities to post in ‘The Capitol’ and view the ‘Quaestiones Perpetua’ sub-forum. Anyone who wants to patronise another member to Citizenship can surely familiarise themselves with the Curia in one month, indeed, if they were truly serious about patronisation they could do it within a week. Three months however, is rather a lengthy amount of time. I agree it is right for Curial appointments, CdeC and Curator for example, yet for patronisation, it makes little sense. In fact, wouldn’t it make more sense for members of the CdeC, the panel that judges all Citizen applications, to have had the chance to Patronise and support potential candidates before they are then given the chance to go on that panel. Concerns may also lie with the fact that the calibre of Citizens judged by the CdeC and, indeed, appointed will be reduced in standard, however why should a one month old Citizen be any worse at choosing candidates than a three month old? They have had to go through the process themselves, they know what the CdeC look for and, if they see someone they believe is worthy of Citizenship, why should they not be allowed to Patronise them? It is both unfair on the Citizen and, even more so, on the deserving potential applicant. Addressing the issue then, that the standard of Citizens will decrease, of course this will not occur. These applicants will still have to pass through the same scrutiny as all others and will still have gain the 60% majority vote required by the CdeC to become a Citizen. I hope then, that the arguments here may answer some of the questions you have and allow you to vote in favour of this passing. Thank you

For Reference

Please Note: Some of these are bills that support the removal of the waiting time entirely. However the arguments used within them could be useful to you in making a decision. First Attempt: Rhinosaur: July 30 2007 First Attempt (2): Rhinosaur: July 31 2007 Second Attempt: Acco: February 14 2009 Third Attempt: Acco: December 09 2009 Fourth Attempt: Elzabar: May 16 2010 Fifth Attempt: Okmin: May 20 2011 Sixth Attempt: M_1512: September 04 2011

[Navajo Joe]

Sirius Black,

Why change from three months to one month, what benefit does that give?

[Aikanár]

I oppose this.

First of all I think that a patron is somebody that a client can rely on, to whom he can come seeking for help and advise in regards to the curia. I think it takes some time to get to know this place and to get known in this place as well.
Second its the patron's responsibility to make sure that he hands out his offers for patronisation in a well thought and careful manner, that he does not dangle out hopes to applicants that cannot be fullfiled. It needs even more time, I believe, to get an impression of what might be considered contributions sufficient enough for rising in rank on the one hand, what the expected threshold of a citizen's behaviour might be on the other hand.

Thus I think that no change is needed.

[Okmin]

Sirius Black,

Why change from three months to one month, what benefit does that give?

For one, it would stop this bill showing up every few months Also satisfies the less patient citizenry, especially those who are long-time members of the site, but only just got citizenship and then want to patronize someone (or more).

It's also a very reasonable compromise between three months and no waiting period.

I oppose this.

First of all I think that a patron is somebody that a client can rely on, to whom he can come seeking for help and advise in regards to the curia. I think it takes some time to get to know this place and to get known in this place as well.
Second its the patron's responsibility to make sure that he hands out his offers for patronisation in a well thought and careful manner, that he does not dangle out hopes to applicants that cannot be fullfiled. It needs even more time, I believe, to get an impression of what might be considered contributions sufficient enough for rising in rank on the one hand, what the expected threshold of a citizen's behaviour might be on the other hand.

Thus I think that no change is needed.

I agree with you in part, that patrons shouldn't "dangle out false hopes", but on the rest, we've always judged citizens on their own merit and not by their patrons. Even now we get plenty of applications from patrons well passed the three month mark that fail (often by a landslide).

[Aikanár]

For one, it would stop this bill showing up every few months Also satisfies the less patient citizenry, especially those who are long-time members of the site, but only just got citizenship and then want to patronize someone (or more).

There the question arises why a long-time member who happend to just recently have become a citizen wouldn't have enough patience to wait for three months, if he's a long-time member if you know where I'm coming from

It's also a very reasonable compromise between three months and no waiting period.

That's most definitely true, but on the other hand we could argue about why not increase it to six months, or four or five, why reduce it, is there any real benefit for us, the curia?

I agree with you in part, that patrons shouldn't "dangle out false hopes", but on the rest, we've always judged citizens on their own merit and not by their patrons. Even now we get plenty of applications from patrons well passed the three month mark that fail (often by a landslide).

Too true that one, I've to admit.

Edit:

I would argue that three months is needlessly long to wait to patronise someone, a Citizen is someone who has been already deemed suitable to hold that position, and, therefore, if they have managed to reach that then they should know what citizenship requires.

Yes, they have been promoted but rising in rank does not indicate whether or not someone might be qualified to transfer the own experience onto other members, by no means actually, since this is an ability that does not get evaluated in the process of application. By being promoted one was find suitable for rising in rank, nothing more, nothing less.

As I stated in the OP it is, in my opinion, the correct amount of time before you can run for the CdeC or Curator. Yet, would it not be more suitable for the individual applying for the CdeC to have had experience, or the opportunity to have had experience of patronising an individual.

What kind of benefit would that hold? How is writing one or two or even a dozen patron paragraphs providing insight in what being a CdeC Councillor's or a Curator's duty and workload will be like? If anything Curator Assistants get a real impression of this, but patrons? I don't think so!

This does not mean they have to of course, but they will have had the chance. Having this chance then, would allow them to see members as potential candidates, assess them and maybe even offer them citizenship, giving them experience that may come in useful for when they apply to the CdeC.

You might get an impression by reading former applications in the Citizen Antechamber, but you won't get an impression of all the internals, neither as a citizen, nor as a patron.

[Dark Storm]

Yes, they have been promoted but rising in rank does not indicate whether or not someone might be qualified to transfer the own experience onto other members, by no means actually, since this is an ability that does not get evaluated in the process of application. By being promoted one was find suitable for rising in rank, nothing more, nothing less.

Doesn't being 'promoted' show everyone that you already have that experience? Experience in contributing to the site, so why should you then have to wait to pass on that experience? I see one month as a good compromise for this. It gives new citizens a chance to see some of the inner workings they may have not seen before, yet it also means that they can pass on any experience they have sooner.

What kind of benefit would that hold? How is writing one or two or even a dozen patron paragraphs providing insight in what bein a CdeC Councillor's or a Curator's duty and workload will be like? If anything Curator Assistants get a real impression of this, but patrons, I don't think so?

I apologise, I meant that last part specifically for the CdeC I also didn't mean experience in that way, I meant it in the way that, if you are able to patronise, you are more likely to look at others and consider what would make them good Citizens rather than having the view that, I can't patronise them now, so I may as well not bother looking into what they have done. This would allow people to have a more vested interest in Patronising at an early stage, before they become eligible for the CdeC.

You might get an impression by reading former applications in the Citizen Antechamber, but you won't get an impression of all the internals, neither as a citizen, nor as a patron.

So how does this change after three months? Why are you not able to get that impression after a month or, indeed, before you become a Citizen?

[Aikanár]

Doesn't being 'promoted' show everyone that you already have that experience? Experience in contributing to the site, so why should you then have to wait to pass on that experience?

As mentioned, it's one thing contributing yourself and getting the acknowledgement for that. It's a total different thing to be able to estimate whether or not someone else might have contributed enough.

I see one month as a good compromise for this. It gives new citizens a chance to see some of the inner workings they may have not seen before, yet it also means that they can pass on any experience they have sooner.

You're entitled to your opinion But you fail to convince me.

I apologise, I meant that last part specifically for the CdeC I also didn't mean experience in that way, I meant it in the way that, if you are able to patronise, you are more likely to look at others and consider what would make them good Citizens rather than having the view that, I can't patronise them now, so I may as well not bother looking into what they have done.

Based on what do you make these assumptions?

This would allow people to have a more vested interest in Patronising at an early stage, before they become eligible for the CdeC.

Really? How so? You do realise that neither patronisation nor running for a curial office is required or asked for of citizens? Furthermore the overwhelming percentage of citizens does neither of both. So how and on what do you base your assumptions on?

So how does this change after three months? Why are you not able to get that impression after a month or, indeed, before you become a Citizen?

Getting an impression of the internals? You never will before you've won an election or served as Curators Assistant. And the Antechamber, as you noted, can be accessed by every member of the site.
This was not intended to be an argument for the three month period. It was just a statement concerning your argument, to which it was adressed, being void.

[Dark Storm]

Sirius Black,

Why change from three months to one month, what benefit does that give?

I would argue that three months is needlessly long to wait to patronise someone, a Citizen is someone who has been already deemed suitable to hold that position, and, therefore, if they have managed to reach that then they should know what citizenship requires. As I stated in the OP it is, in my opinion, the correct amount of time before you can run for the CdeC or Curator. Yet, would it not be more suitable for the individual applying for the CdeC to have had experience, or the opportunity to have had experience of patronising an individual. This does not mean they have to of course, but they will have had the chance. Having this chance then, would allow them to see members as potential candidates, assess them and maybe even offer them citizenship, giving them experience that may come in useful for when they apply to the CdeC.

[Ishan]

Strong oppose.

[Dark Storm]

Strong oppose.

May I ask why?

[Ishan]

May I ask why?

Because i don't want to ride Halie's Ferris wheel.

Anyways i can't bother with this, i will post if this goes to vote when required support is gained.

[Aikanár]

Because i don't want to ride Halie's Ferris wheel.

Beware Halie's terrible Ferris wheel!

[Mega Tortas de Bodemloze]

Strong oppose.

Oh look...I think it might have moved...Perhaps give it another Whaaack!!! Looky, snapshots from the last handful of times this notion came to the floor....

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

grimreaper2

"Not today...but maybe tomorrow."

In glancing over the thread I missed the links to preivous examples of this idea, when they blew through here. "If" I have time tommorrow I'll see if I can dig up a few of them.

**************************
Edit I: this care of the OP.....

I'm going to be helpful

First Attempt:
Rhinosaur: July 30 2007

First Attempt (2):
Rhinosaur: July 31 2007

Second Attempt:
Acco: February 14 2009

Third Attempt:
Acco: December 09 2009

Fourth Attempt:
Elzabar: May 16 2010

Fifth Attempt:
Okmin: May 20 2011

Sixth Attempt:
M_1512: September 04 2011

-----------------
They're in the OP under 'For Reference'

Now that's chutzspa!!!!! Tomorrow I'll have a gander at these and objectively ponder...

+Rep to the OP for sheer daring and on the spot charizma...
************
EditII: I shoulda read the OP all the way through...especially the for reference section...

[Silent Assassin]

Well after reading through all the comments of the previous attemps, I found this post from Ishan, which for me describs well why it's not appropriate and why I will Oppose to this amendment:

I agree with the sentiments of FF and like i said waiting for 3 months is not a big deal time fades away fast and if one citizen is so much in need to patronize someone he an always recommend that person to his patron or fellow citizens, no one would reject patronizing a deserving candidate. He can expand his tree after 3 months.

The important part is: see bolded part in Ishan's post, also I think a probation time is important like for any other parts of the site, (i.e moderation, Administrators, etc...). Now I don't know why members are bringing this back again, what is the gain/profit/advantage in this, can't people wait 3 months??? Do we as Citizens gain something so much important when patronizing someone that we can't wait 3 months??? NO! Do we get awards for the one who as patronized the most members? NO! So why is this so important and that can't wait 3 months??? Nothing

Moving the timeframe from 3 months to 1 month won't bring anything worthy enough to even take the time to make the amdendment IMO.

Usually amendments are made for a good reason, with benefits in some way, in this case I see no benefits at all.

I'm sorry to say that I have to oppose.

SA

[Okmin]

Do we as Citizens gain something so much important when patronizing someone that we can't wait 3 months??? NO! Do we get awards for the one who as patronized the most members? NO! So why is this so important and that can't wait 3 months??? Nothing

Conversely:
Do we gain something so important by waiting three months? No.
Do we get awards for waiting the longest? No.
What's so important that we have to wait three months? Nothing.

And say someone has been a citizen for almost two months. They find someone clearly worth patronizing. Why should the citizen have to choose between waiting a month or sending the guy to someone else? No reason, other than "that's the way it's done."

[Jom]

This sort of bill is always made just after someone is patronised and doesn't feel like waiting. It's either this or removing the wait for applying for Curial office. Needless to say, I'm opposed for reasons I've probably stated over a year ago.

[Dark Storm]

Because you will be responsible for your actions as a patron, you should be really sure what you're doing by offering another fellow member of the site to sponsor his/her citizenship. Take it like a short termed apprenticeship. If you reduce it to one month you can disolve it altogether. Three month is not much time, compared to off the web measurement of time, but it is enough time in on the web terms, so it's a compromise, in my eyes.

Fair enough, everyone is entitled to their own opinions, I still however feel that it is too long and that you can find out what you need to find out, and know what you need to know, within a month. I also appreciate the fact that you need to be sure of what you're doing and that you need to be responsible, however I believe the best way to learn is by doing and how can you truly know what you're doing without having done it previously?

Because i don't want to ride Halie's Ferris wheel.

Anyways i can't bother with this, i will post if this goes to vote when required support is gained.

Beware Halie's terrible Ferris wheel!

Ooh, inspiration ()

and that is fair enough Ishan, I look forward to seeing it, if this does get that far

This sort of bill is always made just after someone is patronised and doesn't feel like waiting. It's either this or removing the wait for applying for Curial office. Needless to say, I'm opposed for reasons I've probably stated over a year ago.

Would it matter then if I came back and proposed the same bill again a year from now, or two years? When I am well into my citizenship and it wouldn't affect me regardless of its outcome? I don't mind the waiting, I am generally a patient person, however at this time the waiting period does seem needlessly long regardless of whether it affects me

[Jom]

Would it matter then if I came back and proposed the same bill again a year from now, or two years? When I am well into my citizenship and it wouldn't affect me regardless of its outcome? I don't mind the waiting, I am generally a patient person, however at this time the waiting period does seem needlessly long regardless of whether it affects me

No, the time scale doesn't matter and I was being a little unfair with my observation, but I do believe that those who have been just patronised are more likely to propose and/or support something like this than those who have been citizens for a number of months or years.

[Dark Storm]

No, the time scale doesn't matter and I was being a little unfair with my observation, but I do believe that those who have been just patronised are more likely to propose and/or support something like this than those who have been citizens for a number of months or years.

Though it doesn't affect my reasoning or my decision it makes sense, so thank you

[Dark Storm]

Would it matter then if I came back and proposed the same bill again a year from now, or two years? When I am well into my citizenship and it wouldn't affect me regardless of its outcome? I don't mind the waiting, I am generally a patient person, however at this time the waiting period does seem needlessly long regardless of whether it affects me