Preview: Arabia

[Basil 11]

bravo !

[Ichon]

This is going to make choosing Saba more difficult with such a nice competitor who must wield diplomacy even more carefully.

[bobbin]

Sigh...where to even begin. Firstly it doesn't matter how amazing you think the new engines are, they cannot be used to make mods that have a different setting to that of the game. There is a reason why m2tw has the most active mod forums on the site. So I fail to see why you felt the need to being that up, do you expect us to just drop everything because the game we mod is outdated?

And please cut it with the condescending attitude, you feely admit having minimal input into the community yet you somehow feel entitled to child us for not releasing the mod, and even have the cheek to suggest we are dithering or timewasting, holding up the release. We mean it when we say the mod is not in a playable state, this is a product of far too ambitious goals being set for most of the mods development, we have cut back drastically on these to ensure the mod will be released.

So if you don't have anything better to contribute than hyperbolic rants and thinly veiled insults please keep your opinions to yourself, it will save both our times and allow the team to focus on finishing the mod.

[AlphaDelta]

There are more people currently viewing the Kingdoms modding forum alone than there are viewing all of the Shogun 2 AND all of the Napoleon forums put together! If EB II takes another 5 years it'll still be worth waiting for.

Cheers

[Visarion]

There are more people currently viewing the Kingdoms modding forum alone than there are viewing all of the Shogun 2 AND all of the Napoleon forums put together! If EB II takes another 5 years it'll still be worth waiting for.

Cheers

[Dago Red]

There are no insults meant. Just criticisms, which I stated fairly with full admission of no effort put in this mod on my part. I only mean to state an opinion that goes unspoken here.

People just troll or leave, they don't say what needs be said.

If you really have no campaign or beta that could be put out to your community, then I retract relaying my friend's statement about "avoidance behavior." Still though, I have asked periodically how things progress with Gaza, and received the most ponderous and dreamy answers from a certain 5-toed anatomical structure, about thinking on adding some feature or other next, with no regard for a sense of urgency to actually release it -- just to perfect it.

it's my sense that, although there may be some who depart from this in the team, that largely you have a team of perfectionists, and they can't see that: just releasing something their dedicated community can play is a thing of beauty itself.

Like I said, I bought the game (after asking here for a ballpark time frame on the gaza campaign, and once told that it was "coming soon"/months and "at least by the end of the year")... I dropped the coin on m2tw and have been waiting... for years now as replacement parts (1 new monitor and 2 new computers) continue to be less and less compatible with m2tw as a game platform. Now, installing m2tw mods on a windows 7 machine is like jumping through an obstacle course.

If some kind of limited beta/Gaza campaign were actually released you would only have all the more feedback, bug reporting and help from the community. Wouldn't that help further the whole project?

Anyway, carry on.

[napoleonic]

Like I said, I bought the game (after asking here for a ballpark time frame on the gaza campaign, and once told that it was "coming soon"/months and "at least by the end of the year")... I dropped the coin on m2tw and have been waiting... for years now as replacement parts (1 new monitor and 2 new computers) continue to be less and less compatible with m2tw as a game platform. Now, installing m2tw mods on a windows 7 machine is like jumping through an obstacle course.

ridiculous statement, did you buy apple? that's likely why you had to jump through an obstacle course to install m2twk mods

[Ichon]

Like I said, I bought the game (after asking here for a ballpark time frame on the gaza campaign, and once told that it was "coming soon"/months and "at least by the end of the year")... I dropped the coin on m2tw and have been waiting... for years now as replacement parts (1 new monitor and 2 new computers) continue to be less and less compatible with m2tw as a game platform. Now, installing m2tw mods on a windows 7 machine is like jumping through an obstacle course.

You've made good objective points and criticisms in other forums so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt as perhaps just a bit of impatience is setting in but what are you talking about with Win 7 and MTW2 is so outdated?

Not to defend Win 7 necessarily but MTW2 is actually more stable and better looking in Win 7 for me than it ever was in XP. I loaded Win 7 over XP and so was able to observe MTW2 mods on the same install and it was easy and definite improvement. Perhaps you had a poor 1080P monitor because I have two... 22 and 32 and MTW2 looks quite good on both, in fact many little details I never noticed before jumped out.

There are some games I can no longer play on Win 7 (Privateer, Shadow of the Horned Rat, Close Combat, High Command, etc) but those games are from the mid 90s almost 20 years ago now. I can still play Master of Orion, Wing Commander, Heroes of Might and Magic, and even UrQuan so it is going to be a long, long time before MTW2 is too old to play. It actually scales pretty well as larger texture files can be rendered now with better equipment and while it doesn't look as good as brand new releases it certainly looks better than comparable games from 2006.

[Dago Red]

You've made good objective points and criticisms in other forums so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt as perhaps just a bit of impatience is setting in but what are you talking about with Win 7 and MTW2 is so outdated?

Take one look at the installation instructions, and then all the help and technical issues problems from people on say, Broken Crescent, and you'll see what I mean. You or I may not have had too many problems, or been able to figure it out easily, but others have been thwarted. There are also all the well documented UAC hurdles one must leap over in Vista and 7 which make some installations as complicated as passing a bill in the US House of Representatives.

As for the monitor -- the one I returned was the problem. I returned it for a full refund and found the one I use now which is not a problem, although the game overlay elements (building browser, unit cards, etc are still inordinately stretched out because they were not designed with a hi def widescreen viewing in mind).

My point is that you can easily end up buying a new monitor which is not compatible with the display of a 7-year-old game. When you consider resolution (1080p in my case) with the actual screen real estate in inches you can end up with combinations that do not display the game properly. The game was designed ages ago for a totally different technology. The monitors we have now didn't even exist then. If I had not been vigilant, and TW games so important to me, I would simply have ended up with a monitor that couldn't display them and stopped playing.

It's only going to continue along this path of increasing incompatibility, and outdated designs not working with modern technology. Right now, most issues are easily corrected with a little help and/or vigilance on the part of the user, but the average person is totally lost when it comes to the complexities of installing a mod that takes more effort than simply clicking "install."

[krste]

@Dago Red

Most modern widescreen monitors have a setting to change the aspect ratio from always wide to auto. When on auto the monitor adjust to the video source, so when playing older games like Medieval 2, Rome or Warcraft 3 that only support 4:3 resolutions the image will be centered with black areas on the sides like this

and there will be no streaching.

[Lуra]

Take one look at the installation instructions, and then all the help and technical issues problems from people on say, Broken Crescent, and you'll see what I mean. You or I may not have had too many problems, or been able to figure it out easily, but others have been thwarted. There are also all the well documented UAC hurdles one must leap over in Vista and 7 which make some installations as complicated as passing a bill in the US House of Representatives.

As for the monitor -- the one I returned was the problem. I returned it for a full refund and found the one I use now which is not a problem, although the game overlay elements (building browser, unit cards, etc are still inordinately stretched out because they were not designed with a hi def widescreen viewing in mind).

My point is that you can easily end up buying a new monitor which is not compatible with the display of a 7-year-old game. When you consider resolution (1080p in my case) with the actual screen real estate in inches you can end up with combinations that do not display the game properly. The game was designed ages ago for a totally different technology. The monitors we have now didn't even exist then. If I had not been vigilant, and TW games so important to me, I would simply have ended up with a monitor that couldn't display them and stopped playing.

It's only going to continue along this path of increasing incompatibility, and outdated designs not working with modern technology. Right now, most issues are easily corrected with a little help and/or vigilance on the part of the user, but the average person is totally lost when it comes to the complexities of installing a mod that takes more effort than simply clicking "install."

Tell me, what is driving you?
No, really, what are you striving for? Do you want the team to just go all "Golly guys, we've been doin' it wrong the whole goggly down time! Haw! Haw! Less just release it without all the historical detail and balance and new campaign systems all researched and done by us to a professional caliber in our free time; let's release it without all that that made EB1 so good. Lets be swayed by the public of our mod. So that they can enjoy a rushed product, a raw cake."

Do you think the team have their heads up their rectums? Do you think they're blind, following some 'hopeless' road to kaput? They have worked on it thus far, they will work on it till the end. Only a fool would not see their passion fr their creation.

This mos will be played, in 2, 3, 4 years time? The people who will really want to enjoy it will find a way to install it, if for some reason the systems of the future make decade-old games unplayable.

I won't, at least.

~Lyra

[Dago Red]

@Dago RedMost modern widescreen monitors have a setting to change the aspect ratio from always wide to auto.

Thank you but that looks worse imo than the stretching. It's an option for some I guess, not for me.

Do you want the team to just go all "Golly guys, we've been doin' it wrong the whole goggly down time!

You're funny!

All I'm saying is, there are reasons to get the mod out as fast as possible before it becomes far too difficult for the average person to even be able to play it. And after 6 years since this was announced (I think), no one can claim getting it out now is rushing it. There is no rushing anything anymore. Geriatrics in a testudo formation would have moved faster.

I don't begrudge anyone on the team for wanting to get things right, or taking extra care in the details. But they NEED to hear another viewpoint... which many of us are harping at: they don't need to write a treatise every time a proposal is made to make a great game. They don't need pages that take 60 minutes to scroll down of information on every single faction to make a historically accurate portrayal. They don't need to spend 6 years developing a game to be the greatest historical depiction of the classical period.

I guarantee you, just 25% of the research and work they have already done would have resulted in that already. So, going forward, just concentrate on putting it out and stop the endless scholasticism. That, is my viewpoint, and what I am "driving at" is putting it out there (with these technical/compatibility issue concerns) so that this viewpoint is heard. Just saying "omg, i can't wait, googly goo lol!" for 6 years is rather useless input. You may not agree with my assessments, but they are real, and useful concerns to address.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Take one look at the installation instructions, and then all the help and technical issues problems from people on say, Broken Crescent, and you'll see what I mean. You or I may not have had too many problems, or been able to figure it out easily, but others have been thwarted. There are also all the well documented UAC hurdles one must leap over in Vista and 7 which make some installations as complicated as passing a bill in the US House of Representatives.

(...)

but the average person is totally lost when it comes to the complexities of installing a mod that takes more effort than simply clicking "install."

We had EB1 to learn that lesson. It basically stems from doing your installer more as an afterthought than as a "feature" on its own. So for EB2 we decided to do things quite differently, mainly because we wanted to make the installer automatically avoid many of the pitfalls that one might otherwise stumble into.

In fact we might be the first and only mod to have a working installer before a working mod.

As a general guideline: if a mod asks you to disable UAC it is "doing it wrong". There is absolutely zero need for elevated permissions or mucking about with system settings when installing a mod as the game supports loading mods from arbitrary path names and for the purpose of Steam/Launcher integration one can register mods inside the "current user" section of the registry which is also picked up by the M2TW launcher.

So because our installer specifies that it wants "normal permissions" this means that on Vista/Windows 7 it will default to an unprivileged installation method. The installer checks whether or not it is running as administrator and whether or it is running on a 64bit system. Additionally the installer refuses to install to a directory which already exists, except if that directory corresponds to an EB2 installation (for the purpose of patches/reinstalls) and the default installation location is inside the current user's home directory. It also makes sure to integrate the uninstaller for EB2 with the Windows Control Panel.

[Evelien]

Lovely!

[mr.playa]

omg am going to die from waiting

you guys are awesome
great review

keep up the good work

[Abdalqaum]

Europa Barbarorum II will feature incense as a resource on the strategy map.

What about qat? An addictive plant from the southern arabian peninsula and east africa.
Well... I guess EB2 is going to be addictive as well.

[Casual Tactician]

What about qat? An addictive plant from the southern arabian peninsula and east africa.
Well... I guess EB2 is going to be addictive as well.

Agree!

What about a 'qat-sassin' unit for Saba?

[Moros]

What about qat? An addictive plant from the southern arabian peninsula and east africa.
Well... I guess EB2 is going to be addictive as well.

Qat as a resource (of which we can only have a limited number) will probably fall under spices or something similar. We can perhaps represent Qat in different ways (triats,...)

[Mix-Master]

Qat as a resource (of which we can only have a limited number) will probably fall under spices or something similar. We can perhaps represent Qat in different ways (triats,...)

haha! I recall one Sab'yn family member in EB1 had the "qat chewer" trait which I think made him more sociable. So Qat was always represented.

GOOD JOB ON THE PREVIEW! I actually read it all this time! I wonder if victory conditions for Saba require taking lands of the Nabataeans... (it would actually be pretty cool to unify the Arabs before Islam) In any case, it's going to be so cool to have another faction to trade with and also the INDIAN FACTION ACROSS THE SEA!

Thank you for taking great care of this often misrepresented part of the world.

[Xerrop]

An interesting and extensive preview. Needed two days to read all the text.
Since the announcement of EBII I knew for sure that there will be a second faction in this era as it was simply an empty spot. But good to see the confirmation now. And as Mix-Master mentioned above the Indian faction will greatly improve the campaign for Saba as well as Nabatea.

But I have one question also - the map showing the incense route features all towns in Arabia? If yes then I think that the Nabateans will be limited somewhat as there is only Rekem (Petra I guess?) as probably the one and only start territory. A second town/province in the area (aside from Dedan) wouldn´t be such a bad idea I think.

GOOD JOB ON THE PREVIEW! I actually read it all this time! I wonder if victory conditions for Saba require taking lands of the Nabataeans... (it would actually be pretty cool to unify the Arabs before Islam)

I guess there is no way around adding their towns to the victory conditions. Saba can only expand northwards against the Nabateans and westwards across the Red Sea facing Egypt (beside some eastern Arabian provinces).