What's The Most Cost Effective Anti-Cav?

[rtizzy]

Early on in the game, cavalry seem to be pretty much unstoppable. The only thing I've had much success with is just engaging enemy cavalry with my cav and then flanking them with my spears. Once pikes become available, it's an easier problem to deal with to deal with, but I'm not a huge fan of them cuz they're only effective when in spearwall and they can't do much else other than kill cav.

Just to give you an idea of what I'm talking about, Mailed Knights cost 680 Fl while Sergeant Spearmen cost 420. In order to break even, for every one unit of Spears you lose, you have to kil ~.6 units of MK. I have a hard time believing this is possible even if it's just melee. Add in the charges, and you're pretty much screwed. So I'm wondering if there's not an early age spear unit that can be cost effective v. early cavalry.

[ImperialAndre]

hehe put your spears in shiltron that way they recieve the charge better while your xbows concentrate fire against the enemy cavalry.
xbows is the way to weaken the enemy cavalry you can keep your own cavalry back so that you have the mobility advantage.

also you save money in upkeep cost you dont ned much cavalry in your army and spears can be replaced faster than the knigths and are cheaper.
the wast majority of your early inf should be spear militia i only got a couple of swords in my armies you dont realy ned them.

if you stack 2 units of pikemen on top of eachother then they will crush any inf and cav that is folish enougth to atack them head on.

[_Elysium_]

You could also change the EDU so units that usually have Schiltrom as their bonus ability get Shield Wall instead. The AI will use it alot, making for more interesting battles. Makes Spear Militia more useful aswell.

[Avatar]

Early on in the game, cavalry seem to be pretty much unstoppable. The only thing I've had much success with is just engaging enemy cavalry with my cav and then flanking them with my spears. Once pikes become available, it's an easier problem to deal with to deal with, but I'm not a huge fan of them cuz they're only effective when in spearwall and they can't do much else other than kill cav.

Just to give you an idea of what I'm talking about, Mailed Knights cost 680 Fl while Sergeant Spearmen cost 420. In order to break even, for every one unit of Spears you lose, you have to kil ~.6 units of MK. I have a hard time believing this is possible even if it's just melee. Add in the charges, and you're pretty much screwed. So I'm wondering if there's not an early age spear unit that can be cost effective v. early cavalry.

Its not a simple case of comparing the two units one vs one, because in such a situation the cavalry would win every single time, assuming a competent commander of course.

To give a direct answer, the first thing that popped into my head when I read your question was "Italian Spear Militia" They are cheap enough, tough enough, and spammable enough to throw under the thundering hooves to keep enemy cavalry more than busy.

Incidentally, engaging enemy cavalry with your cavalry and then flanking with the spears is the wrong way to go about it. Get a spear unit into melee with the cavalry and then unleash your own heavy brigade against their unprepared flank for an almost guaranteed rout.

[yellowfrogleap]

my first thought is the town walls, towers, and square. This has no upkeep, and it offsets the upkeep of spear, and xbow militia. With walls(towers and square) and these two types of units you can (cost effectively) counter cavalry.

In the field cavalry dominates, with a few AI exploitation exceptions.

[Sitalkes]

(A) A hill

(B) I think any spearmen with better than a +4 bonus against cavalry will do

(C) a hill with spearmen on it backed up by missile troops in sufficient numbers to make the AI charge up the hill. Alternatively you can put the spearmen on the flanks and charge the cavalry from the flanks while they are held by the shooters

[╬Ritterbruder╬]

missile cav, especially javilin-hurling cav will decimate any type of cav
or, if available, elephants

[SturmChurro]

I usually have levy archers in the front, with a few cheap units on the front lines (behind the archers) to recieve the charge (after I run my archers to the back of my lines), with javelin men right behind them, then I have my stronger infantry right behind the javelin men to charge into fighting units whenever needed, and crossbows in the very back.

Cost effective: Use your cheap units to take the charge.

Or you could use missile cavalry to take their heavy cavalry on a chase.

[Aeratus]

If you're only talking about the charge, no spear unit in vanilla can come close to beating cavalry cost-effectively when it comes to taking the charge.

[SturmChurro]

If you're only talking about the charge, no spear unit in vanilla can come close to beating cavalry cost-effectively when it comes to taking the charge.

Yep. That is why "cannon fodder" units are needed.

[Blaze of Macedon]

You can't match cav 1 on 1, florin for florin like that, except with other cav of course. It's medieval Europe, cav is suppose to dominate the battlefield.

Early on i think Papal Guard is the best anti cav unit. Armoured Sargeants will probably recieve a charge from Mailed Knights and live to tell the tale... if they start running from the battlefield in time

Like people said: use the terrain, use numbers (spear units have much more men than cav units), swarm with 2-3 cheap units (militias), use cheap units to recieve the charge, concentrate fire on the cav units... If you want cav to be less effective try ETW (as i'm doing now )

[Blood Raven]

I use this formation, and it is a certified cav killer
Put yourself on a hill, Scottish glen is the best map for this

Place Armoured sargeants/Heavy Billmen in the centre behind them place Dismounted Feudal knight/Armoured Swordsman/Dismounted English Knights behind them.
Place your Archers on the flanks protected by stakes, turn on guard mode on all units first
turn skirmish mode off on the archers but keep fire at will on.
Place your General behind your centre.

Using these tactics I've smashed full French armys with very little losses if any.

[TheDarkKnight]

I use this formation, and it is a certified cav killer
Put yourself on a hill, Scottish glen is the best map for this

Place Armoured sargeants/Heavy Billmen in the centre behind them place Dismounted Feudal knight/Armoured Swordsman/Dismounted English Knights behind them.
Place your Archers on the flanks protected by stakes, turn on guard mode on all units first
turn skirmish mode off on the archers but keep fire at will on.
Place your General behind your centre.

Using these tactics I've smashed full French armys with very little losses if any.

That looks like the formation that loads on the Battle of Agincourt historical battle

[Sitalkes]

How do you get the AI to charge into your trap instead of attacking the wings (or one flank more than another) first?

[Ferdiad]

The Cav will flank your U easily enough.

[Blood Raven]

I've noticed that the AI likes to go for your commander, so I placed my commander behind the centre.
The AI keeps falling for it, I've based the formation on Edward III's tactics at Crecy

[Blood Raven]

Best thing is about this formation is any army that has archer who can plant stakes can do this, for example playing as the turks have your jannisary archers deploy stakes on the flanks, because I like the jannisary musketeers I bring them as well, I put musketeers behind the stakes and my archers move further up the hill be hind the musketeers, A very good 1-2 punch, jannisary infantry in the centre and commander behind the centre you can use English tactics, the formation I use funnels the enemy into my centre and missile fire from the flanks is devastating.

[tudor93]

Best thing is about this formation is any army that has archer who can plant stakes can do this, for example playing as the turks have your jannisary archers deploy stakes on the flanks, because I like the jannisary musketeers I bring them as well, I put musketeers behind the stakes and my archers move further up the hill be hind the musketeers, A very good 1-2 punch, jannisary infantry in the centre and commander behind the centre you can use English tactics, the formation I use funnels the enemy into my centre and missile fire from the flanks is devastating.

yeah, but early in the game you don't have archers with the stake ability (only Nowary and Denmark with their norse archers have, the Byzantines with their mouratoi (spelling ...) and I think that the Scots have one too ?);
for example, as England ealy in the game I only have levy archers (total crap) , archer militia (not so total crap, but still crap) and archers (the standard ones, the HRE,France etc. have them too, they are still mediocre); I got an offer from the guild that enables me to recruit longbows only after turn 45 or something like that and I only have it in one castle so it's not enough

[lolIsuck]

The AI goes for the missile units.
English are the easiest anti-cav faction, Timurids and any faction using missile cav are great too.
I normally don't have problems with the enemy cavalry, you just have to intercept them before they are able to charge, make use of your own cavalry and a heavy inf/spearmen unit behind it. Pull the cav back almost immediately, they are your most powerfull units and cav/cav fights are ed up. They're just used to get the charge out, your infantry will kill off the cav easily in melee. Missile cav is hell though, I hate it when the enemy has horse archers, they're probably the only enemy unit with an efficient kills per death men ratio. Even with factions like Poland it's hell, chasing Mongol horse archers down with Polish nobles and strelcy but missile cav is the most efficient unit against heavy cav but they require more micromanagement. Mounted javelinmen like jinetes and Polish nobles butcher heavy cav if kept out of melee.
The easiest way is of course pikemen/spearmen with archers behind, some cav or heavy inf on the flanks and you're good.

[Blood Raven]

I tend not to do campaign on m2tw, I prefer to experiment with tactics and formations in custom