Would mercenaries retrainable in settlements make sense?

[Maltacus]

In later centuries covered by this mod there emerged a wide variety of mercenaries in different places of the part of the world that is covered by the Stainless Steel map. Some were locals without much professionalism, some were regular soldiers without employment, some were exiled nobles or companies and some were formed into quite independent companies and small armies with their own staff, supply train and various types of troops.


I have been thinking of the last category. Would it not make sense for a captain of a mercenary company hired by a greedy imperialist (sometimes known as "the player") and sent to foreign lands for years, to try and replenish the losses his company suffers? Otherwise the company, and he, will lose their importance and position and may be completely destroyed or face the prospect of being assimilated by other units of less status. In history, mercenary armies were generally used for as short as possible due to the high cost and distrust of them. In M2TW however, they are employed for many, many years and sometimes stay at one place for a long time. During that time, perhaps some new recruits can be attracted and drilled into new pikemen, men-at-arms and so on?


Would it make sense with regards to history and probability of what-if scenarios, to make mercenary some companies retrainable or maybe even recruitable outside their places of origin?


If so, what units would this make most sense for?


I guess this will all turn out to be very unhistorical since it would be fun to be able to maintain foreign mercenary companies wherever you want (provided you have the required outrageous amount of florins) but let's ask it anyway.

[k/t]

It makes sense for them to be recruited in the settlement, but then an invading force wouldn't be able to hire them. Maybe make them recruitable from the settlement as well as from outside it.

[Ichon]

As you pointed out mercenaries meant many things and were composed of many different types of men. I've thought about it a few times how to model them... there are mercenaries like Scots Guard or Varangian in faction rosters which show such a long history of use that those states they fought for instituted regular standing companies.

Then many of the AOR troops in SS are really mercenaries of various sorts and that works pretty well as they weren't usually traveling long distances formed into the units they are available as in SS. Then there are the various mercenaries in different parts of the world which show small groups of men fighting in a particular style being hired and formed into larger groups by their employers.

What does not get shown are the great companies which fought together and were basically their own army. White Company, Catalan Company, Cossacks, Hussites, Black Army, the Great Company of Werner von Urslingen, Brettoni, etc. CoW depicts mercenaries with a great captain who is a general being hired, thereafter his troops can be trained in a special building- Dogs of War camp with very slow replenish but which can be built anywhere. I actually like this approach as mercenaries remain somewhat limited but still more useable than currently.

If I were to redo mercenaries in SS I'd probably leave AOR units like Pechenegs and Muslim archer alone but change Landsknechts, Welsh archers to AOR units while leaving most other mercenaries alone. English could then recruit Welsh if they capture Wales as AOR but take awhile to get them in native rosters- I would make Varangians, Catalans, and Papal Halberdiers generals that would replenish themselves and could gain experience etc. On the death of the general leading the company if it was still the right era the company could be re-hired but without the XP it had gained obviously. Papal Halberdiers could only be hired by Pope, Varangians only by ERE, while Catalans and perhaps White Company would be available within specific mercenary AOR. Those are the only companies I can think of offhand that had a history of service lasting longer than a single commander and fighting in many different campaigns while the companies lasted around 50 years which shows a tradition separate from just the original men who formed the company and were not serving same faction like Black Company which should basically be late Hungary roster. Should be quite small impact being a very small amount as Varangians and Papal Halberdiers were never more than a few hundreds. Catalan Company was 3-5,000 but probably only a core of 2,000 of the actual Catalans. Those general companies could probably get morale_lock or something similar and quite good stats. Perhaps even 2-3 different types of generals though that would waste unit cap- Varangians would have spearmen and axemen. White Company would be heavy cavalry, archers, and axemen. Catalans would have light infantry and light cavalry. Most of these companies rarely had a core complement greater than 2-4,000 but on the scale of SS 20 unit armies having 2-3 replenishing generals representing a great company could work with quite high upkeep of course since most of these companies would only be able to be hired by 1 faction or at a time.

I like how CoW did the Dogs of War camps but I don't think that would translate fully into SS. ERE already has a mercenary building and perhaps Italian, HRE, and French factions could use a similar building but not every faction.

[Maltacus]

Why could not every faction use a similar building?

[Ichon]

Why could not every faction use a similar building?

Because not all states hired mercenaries in the same way. Some better differences would be preserved if the factions which tended to hire fewer mercenaries did not have the building or regions where mercenaries were hired by the local lords and not the state.

[RollingWave]

making units self replenish is very tricky in M2TW, it's possible to some degree for some mercenary units though through descr_mercenary, I think for example Mercenary Knights, you need to add them to every mercenary zone and have a replenish rate for it, I guess you can do it so that their max pool is under 1 that means you can't recruit them outside of the zone but can still retrain them.

Still, this is complicated process to be sure.

[Maltacus]

@Ichon
So? Isn't the question rather whether or not they could have hired this or that company and maintained it?

Take the HRE and the landsknechts for example. They were trained by foreign instructors (Swiss) on Maximilians initiative. He brings a foreign type of unit into a state which has no real counterpart to it, and succeeds in creating a similar (almost) force. What if someone else with enough coin would get the same idea and then hire a landsknecht company to serve as instructors and the core of his new pike force? It doesn't sound unreasonable to me that a foresighted emir of Granada could do the same, for example. The trouble would be coughing up the money and transporting the new employees...which would be represented by the player having to hire the mercenary company where they are available in the descr_mercenary in the first place.

Of course, retraining should not be possible for all mercenaries, only the few that seem to have had the organisation and structure to drill new recruits into replacements almost anywhere. Landsknecht units leaps to mind, with their immense staff and administration and supply trains with the size of a small town.

@Rolling Wave
I was thinking more of a building actually, where the mercenary units in question have max pools of 0.99. As the building grows, for example from brothel to inn, the replenishment rate increases slightly but the max pool remains the same. That is far easier to add than going through the descr_mercenary.

[Ichon]

@Ichon
So? Isn't the question rather whether or not they could have hired this or that company and maintained it?

@Rolling Wave
I was thinking more of a building actually, where the mercenary units in question have max pools of 0.99. As the building grows, for example from brothel to inn, the replenishment rate increases slightly but the max pool remains the same. That is far easier to add than going through the descr_mercenary.

Maintaining a company is really difficult on the level you are taking about where it keeps the XP gained into perpetuity. Also there are many reasons not every faction developed pikemen after the Swiss model or Tercio squares, etc. Theoretically what you are saying is that any faction might as well be able to develop any roster it wanted with a far sighted King. The French serving in Scotland or the Scot in France or the Swiss in France but not in HRE had political reasons but those states also had economical and manpower reasons why they used mercenaries in the first place not just a matter of getting some trainers and paying some men to learn a style of fighting and then develop the traditions and steady manpower replacement to allow a single unit to benefit from the experience of men who died 40 years ago as keeping XP by retraining allows. Swiss and HRE were enemies and thus HRE had ample opportunity to regret not having similar style of units. It was not too hard to get a few renegade Swiss to start the training and they spoke same language and had some similar cultural traditions. I don't see how Emir of Granada would have any success trying the same thing, nor even French or Hungary which were also close to Swiss and used Swiss mercenaries but never developed their own companies based on Swiss. Both had pike companies but their tactical use and fit into their field armies was different than Swiss did because of other manpower and fighting style reasons.

Basically for the most part the current SS system works well enough as factions which did not have a tradition of service from some mercenary companies have to send a general to recruit and then once those recruited are exhausted they are dismissed from service. The type of perpetual companies you are talking about are shown through AOR and roster units.

I do like the idea of .99 pool and a few levels to replenish recruitment. If you don't mind I might borrow that for 1390 Swiss? Since Swiss are their own faction but such a small population I think its unrealistic to have them spread all across Europe building fantastic pike companies. Using that I can make them recruited in Switzerland or N Italy but able to be retrained anywhere the Swiss empire goes to simulate a trickle of reinforcements available.

Don't take this as saying you shouldn't develop how you like, I could see ERE, Aragon, the Italians, and CS, Mongols especially enjoying some buildings like that. Just be careful which units you make available where otherwise everything breaks down. A human player could recruit Swiss every available time when the Swiss mercenary AOR refills and then build .99 retraining buildings on all front line settlements and in 30-50 turns be owning a full stack of max XP Swiss which he never has to worry about losing.

@ RollingWave-

I'm not actually going to aim for self replenishing units anytime soon but I know its possible having seen a couple other mods achieve it. The units which it would make any sense for in SS are so limited its not worth the work in my opinion.

[Maltacus]

Theoretically what you are saying is that any faction might as well be able to develop any roster it wanted with a far sighted King.

Don't forget my initial question of what units this would make most sense for. Mounted archers of the steppes are generally out of the question IMO, for example. That's why I would only include the mercenaries that seem to have belonged to the most organised and "long-term" companies or units.

But I have indeed added a lot of new opportunities for some factions and plan to add more, to reflect probable development if they rise from their humble starting position, like giving Scotland men-at-arms outside Scotland or the Moors some heavier armour upgrades for their elite tribesmen.

I'm not aiming for anything close to armies of exotic mercenaries, just an elite guard of one or two companies. They would retrain but so slowly that no larger armies could be sustained and require expensive and advanced settlements in some way like Condottieri cavalry needing a master armourer or something. The trick would be to make it so costly that it becomes an unneccessary luxuary and nothing to base armies on.

Maintaining a company is really difficult on the level you are taking about where it keeps the XP gained into perpetuity.

Yes, this stupid experience effects. I don't have a good answer for this. If one makes mercenaries generals they regenerate which makes them overpowered, if they are retrainable they maintain experience forever which is overpowered.

I do like the idea of .99 pool and a few levels to replenish recruitment. If you don't mind I might borrow that for 1390 Swiss?

I'm happy to be of help. Sounds like a good idea. It's actually in CoW too with the elves and their ties to the coastal regions.

[Ichon]

Don't forget my initial question of what units this would make most sense for. Mounted archers of the steppes are generally out of the question IMO, for example. That's why I would only include the mercenaries that seem to have belonged to the most organised and "long-term" companies or units.

I'm not aiming for anything close to armies of exotic mercenaries, just an elite guard of one or two companies. They would retrain but so slowly that no larger armies could be sustained and require expensive and advanced settlements in some way like Condottieri cavalry needing a master armourer or something. The trick would be to make it so costly that it becomes an unneccessary luxuary and nothing to base armies on.

Yes, this stupid experience effects. I don't have a good answer for this. If one makes mercenaries generals they regenerate which makes them overpowered, if they are retrainable they maintain experience forever which is overpowered.

I'm happy to be of help. Sounds like a good idea. It's actually in CoW too with the elves and their ties to the coastal regions.

Which units it makes sense for is difficult to answer as SS depicts many of those units already in rosters and not mercenaries or AOR.

I guess I am confused how you will limit player from acquiring more than 1 or 2 if they are retrainable? 1 or 2 is already easily gotten from the AOR/Merc pools. I thought we were talking of larger numbers. Swiss, Landsknechts, Condotierri, Free Companies, numbered in the 10,000+ range for a lengthy time. Smaller groups with long term service like Scots Guards, Papal Swiss Guard, Varangians, etc are already in rosters.

I changed Condotierri completely in 1390 mod as they were actually many different types of units and most were famous for having some of the best armor in Europe. Also reading more on economics of Renaissance it seems that feudal style nobles and their retinues were actually mostly using lower quality armor as most of them were the low nobility and not very rich. The very rich nobles outfitted their retinues and armies often using state funds and had very good equipment, not some inherited arms from their grandfather.

Professional full time Mercenaries often had the best equipment of all though as they had access to massive quantities of loot and their only way of getting more was to be the best armed fighters around. So BG's would be the rich nobles. Men at arms, lancers, etc would be the professionals equipped by using state funds. Mercenaries would be many of the rest. Banderium, remaining Feudals would be having good armor but not greatest.

To balance that in 1390 I've made is so no mercenaries get free upkeep, very high recruitment cost, relatively modest upkeep, slower pool refill. So just as in history to combat the professional mercenaries the states could rely on slightly lesser equipped but much more widely available and easier to recruit(1/5th price of recruiting mercenaries so 400 vs 2,000) but slightly higher upkeep(400 upkeep vs 300 for mercenaries so it takes 20 turns for mercenaries to become cheaper while also retraining of mercenaries will be much more expensive) AOR troops and non-professional roster units would get free garrison upkeep and both low recruit and upkeep costs for most units(rare or elite AOR units like Retinue Longbowmen cost more).

As far as XP... I think most starting melee stats for superior and higher units should be lowered as much of the time the higher stats are a reflection of more lifetime training etc... however since most higher stats units accumulate XP much more rapidly than lower tier units as they almost always have higher kill ratios- when creating units stats we should assume they would get at least 2 melee points from XP and always 3 for cavalry as their time in service should be included in what their max stats are capable of achieving.

[Maltacus]

I guess I am confused how you will limit player from acquiring more than 1 or 2 if they are retrainable? 1 or 2 is already easily gotten from the AOR/Merc pools. I thought we were talking of larger numbers. Swiss, Landsknechts, Condotierri, Free Companies, numbered in the 10,000+ range for a lengthy time. Smaller groups with long term service like Scots Guards, Papal Swiss Guard, Varangians, etc are already in rosters.

Their cost, mainly. I have doubled all unit upkeep in my mod. It's hideous being the poor Cumans, for example... I have also been thinking of limiting retraining in somewhat viable time to very developed settlements. The goal would not exactly be to limit the player from aquiring them, but rather maintaining a lot without having the treasury plunge into the red or sacrifice having other, much more economical and faction-typical, units.

I often feel that the bad thing with SS is that it is so stuck in what actually happened that it leaves blank spots when something unexpected happens, be it a Scottish empire or a new united Caliphate. In such situations the rosters do not reflect a probable development as the states in question aquire more resources and maybe technology.

Take the Scots Guard and Swiss Guard for example: They appear even if Scotland is wiped out in 1103 and Switzerland remains occupied by an excommunicated HRE since 1101. It is not very realistic to have such units appear in that situation. And on the other hand, suppose the Cumans maintain an alliance with Norway since that time and find themselves entering the fortified central Europe where they need good infantry. Why not ask their allies for a bit of axe power?

It is something like these what-if gaps I would like to fill in by making some units recruitable for factions that didn't have them but in my belief would have liked to have them had they had the opportunity. Mercenaries seem like the obvious choice in some cases but maybe increased AOR units is a better approach.

[Ichon]

There are just too many what if scenarios for me... what if Mongols conquer Poland and Hungary, should they be having knights and heavy saxon infantry? Probably but more likely is they won't conquer that far so the solution has to be AOR or mercenary units. Making a building that can retrain mercenaries anywhere is too much like roster units.

The main reason I don't like cost is only players with crazy historical fidelity would ever use a unit costing several times cost of many other more useful units. I like the solution for Varangians the best where only a single city can produce them. Hidden resources for a region could be a couple provinces really and requiring the building. Scots would continue or even more likely fight with French if Scotland was conquered but its more difficult to say if Bern and other Swiss city states would have developed pikemen to such a degree if not fighting HRE. Probably not I'd guess but its likely someone would have established pikes as Swiss were not the only ones trying them, just the most famous and successful.

What if Italy is conquered by HRE is my favorite what if... I still think there would exist many mercenaries as the cities would still fight amongst themselves. The closer to the start date the less there is to worry about what if scenarios. I think 1100-1300 for the early campaign SS should stick very close to history- after that though it is still difficult to not make all factions generic as there are definite 'strong' units in the late era. So postulating on what form military might have taken for a particular faction had something done differently ends up usually giving the 'strong' units to every faction so its fair which makes for boring rosters in my opinion. I think it makes more sense to continue upgrades and probably have more generic mercenaries which are AOR troops. For 1390 in Italy the different Condottieri are AOR troops rather than mercenaries but the Swiss, Free Companies, etc remain mercenaries. This way Condottieri can be recruited in cities and are more available than mercenaries but if Venice expands outside of Italy where there is no hidden resource then Venice won't carry that strength everywhere in the world it goes but instead forced to use other regional AOR troops etc to make up for more limited native roster.

Swiss Guard should definitely be more limited- I could see the same solution as for Varangians working there very well, only Rome can produce them. Other than a couple other units to me it makes more sense to have such units as AOR troops tied to a hidden resource and requiring a specific building with just slower refill than roster troops and of course the hidden resource is inherently limiting to a specific region so automatically limits numbers without having to inflate the upkeep cost which kind of ruins the fun for me to use them. Scots Guard could be produced then in Paris only with a special building so only France and perhaps a couple other factions(enemies of England thus friends of Scots) could own that buildings to cover some what ifs. Landsknechts this way would make more sense as AOR troops rather than mercenaries or roster troops. That might not cover all potential what ifs, but then nothing really can. In my opinion Landsknechts probably make the most sense as AOR troops all over Europe compared to any other unit thus evening the playing field if Cumans or Fatimids for example arrive in Europe past 1550s as pike warfare is well in place by then and Landsknechts were mercenaries from all over Europe employed by France, Spain, Italians, HRE, Hapsburgs, Flanders, etc.

What if types of changes get really difficult to do everywhere though and be consistent. Pretty much the work involved for the relatively rare cases we are talking about is why I doubt something like this will ever get done... unless you want to do it yourself or someone else volunteers, it requires alot of research and knowledge of political and military relations though to be historical otherwise its just a bunch of wild guess compared to educated guesses but either way its simply guesswork to try and cover 'what if' scenarios.

For me in 1390 the two most difficult mercenaries to decide about were White Company and Catalans. Both existed long independent of any particular faction and fought in so many varied regions that making them AOR troops seemed weird since they could be existing simultaneously in France and Greece but as mercenaries the same problem exists to a lesser degree. I was tempted to make them 4 units of self replenish generals each but that took too much work. I finally just decided to leave them as strong mercenaries with even higher recruitment cost than normal but a bit higher availability since at their height both companies had between 5-8,000s which when many of the state armies of the time were between 30-100,000 was a significant number. I have them disappearing, both gone by 1430 which is 60 turns availability in 1390 which is about 1.5 turns per year.

[Maltacus]

What is Medieval 2 and all it's mods taking place in this world if not one big what if game?

Scots Guard could be produced then in Paris only with a special building so only France and perhaps a couple other factions(enemies of England thus friends of Scots) could own that buildings to cover some what ifs.

Not a bad idea at all. la coupe est pleine would love this

Landsknechts probably make the most sense as AOR troops all over Europe

Seconded!

What if types of changes get really difficult to do everywhere though and be consistent.

Quite so. I have not even finished the planning stage for more than a couple of factions, let alone modded it all.

More AOR units is the way to go in my opinion, regardless of anything else. Especially militia could be a bit more local than it is right now.

[Waffen9999]

Yeah, for instance when you conquer Italy, why would you not have Italian militia? I don't know, just a hought. Personally I think the guilds should have more units tied to them. Currently, unless I am mistaken only the Archer's Guild for England and the Merchants Guild for most factions and the Assassin's Guild for the Muslims give anything in the way of units. I think every faction should get something from them and the other guilds should give out some type of unit.

[Ichon]

I've added archers to explorers guild and merchants guild to represent sailors pressed into service and am toying with adding some melee fighters. I'm not sure what masons guild or assassins guild should give as far as units.

Hmm... Pavise spear militia are AOR units aren't they? I thought for sure when I've conquered Italy I could recruit them.

[k/t]

You will have the Swiss? I want to play your mod! It's 1.5 turns per year? Timescale 0.67?

Varangians aren't recruitable only from Constantinople - they just need a Mayor's Palace. The other unique units are restricted, though.

[Maltacus]

Nope, pavise spear militia are recruitable everywhere for those who have them. I agree with having them be an AOR unit for those who do not have them in their own roster.

What about Scottish pike militia and the Scandinavian sword staff militia? Both places had strong traditions of militia armies and both units are unusual enough to add a local feeling to your army.

Then there are the Spaniards with their swordsmen militia. Would that fit as a local unit for the "guests"?

[Ichon]

You will have the Swiss? I want to play your mod! It's 1.5 turns per year? Timescale 0.67?

Varangians aren't recruitable only from Constantinople - they just need a Mayor's Palace. The other unique units are restricted, though.

Yes... 1390 is still around 200 years range to cover based on rosters so I thought 2tpy thats simply too long. I don't notice the generals lifespans too much difference as all the timescales I've seen they are living dozens of turns which when it only takes 10-20 turns to conquer most medium size kingdoms that is good enough for me. 1.5 seems adequate right amount.

Swiss, Milan, Burgundy etc. Serbian Hussar has finished western Europe on the map but its slower going now for eastern part of the map since there where alot of changes and he has a job plus school now.

Nope, pavise spear militia are recruitable everywhere for those who have them. I agree with having them be an AOR unit for those who do not have them in their own roster.

What about Scottish pike militia and the Scandinavian sword staff militia? Both places had strong traditions of militia armies and both units are unusual enough to add a local feeling to your army.

Then there are the Spaniards with their swordsmen militia. Would that fit as a local unit for the "guests"?

Could be I never considered how many factions might have ownership of Pavise militia. That is actually difficult when I think about it more to decide if they should be on roster or AOR. Makes sense for them to be AOR in Italy, Hungary, and maybe Greece at first, but then they are a very basic unit and it seems more likely any man could be trained to hide behind a really large shield wherever the faction traveled. Although in my conception due to Italians preference for mercenaries they wouldn't really have a large native roster so making Pavise AOR might be a major loss for them.

Those militia are decent candidates for AOR units I think.

Actually in 1390 Swordsmen militia are more common than spear militia.