Turkey parliament passed controversial school bill

[hellheaven1987]

Turkey's parliament has passed a bill that allows parents to move their children into Islamic schools earlier.

The education reform bill extends compulsory education from eight to 12 years and allows children to switch to specialist schools from as young as 10.

The ruling AK Party says the bill will mean pupils stay longer in school but secular Turks see it as part of a wider plan to increase religious influence.

MPs fought during a debate on the bill, which followed days of protests.

On Thursday, police used water cannon and tear gas to disperse protesters in the Turkish capital, Ankara.

Source

Interesting, although I know the "secular" elements (mainly the military) in Turkey always suspect that AKP is trying to promote more traditional values, but I never know there are many civilian elements that against AKP's agenda. Can some of our Turkish members give us a good idea what is the situation now between secular Turks and conservative Turks (conservative does not mean those Turks want to go Sharia)?

[Tureuki]

Optional Qur'an lessons also comes to schools...

AKP members freely says they want a religious generation, other wise new generation would be either thinner addicts or Atheists, and Atheist gives nothing but damage to society.

Few years ago when people said AKP trying to establish Sharia, some of the their supporters were laughing and saying its just empty conspricy...

Simple people(neither Sharia lovers or leftists) are the majority, with some religious show and making them believe country grows, you can easily get their votes, you can easily remove your opoonents and make people believe they're just arrested because of their crimes.

[PointOfViewGun]

Source

Interesting, although I know the "secular" elements (mainly the military) in Turkey always suspect that AKP is trying to promote more traditional values, but I never know there are many civilian elements that against AKP's agenda. Can some of our Turkish members give us a good idea what is the situation now between secular Turks and conservative Turks (conservative does not mean those Turks want to go Sharia)?

Well, the situation between those two groups and the political situation in Turkey can be summed up with two words: cluster .

It's still nothing close to Sharia but it's an unnecessary religious element. It's like allowing Catholic schools.

[Armenum]

Can anybody give statistics on the amount of self proclaimed secular Turks versus more Islamic Turks?

[Blaze86420]

Rofl, people are actually complaining about this? What's wrong with religious education?

[Denny Crane!]

Rofl, people are actually complaining about this? What's wrong with religious education?

I was taught to hate gays. And quite frankly homophobia and religion seems to go hand in hand. I was also taught that science is misguided and muslims are evil (well not quite but it was implied). I was basically preached ignorance every morning for an hour.

Now I'm not saying this has to happen when religious education occurs but it just seems to be a recurring theme in EVERY single instance I research. Whether it is saudi funded textbooks, horrible christian bigotry or buddhist meditation...wait forget the last one. That was just wishful thinking.

[PointOfViewGun]

Im not saying that its a good thing that kids these days are forced to go through such a school system. But adding another level of it, and just happening to make it religious, doesn't seem to me to meen all that much. Education needs reform in a lot of places, maybe turkey does and maybe it doesn't it depends on the quality of these schools and what happens with this legislation and FUTURE legislation that is important. Though I am interested to see a compulsary religious based school, instead of as a secondary option to the public system.

I don't know, I just don't see much of a reason to have this topic in the Mudpit other than to discuss education reform, or just turning it into another Muslims v Christians debate, except this time with teachings in play.

Turkish religious schools, called Imam Hatip Highschools, are a school that you can attend once you're done with elementary school at an age of 14. The current law that AKP based allows such religious schools to get students 4 years earlier. Instead of pushing it later, they're pulling it earlier.

I was taught to hate gays. And quite frankly homophobia and religion seems to go hand in hand. I was also taught that science is misguided and muslims are evil (well not quite but it was implied). I was basically preached ignorance every morning for an hour.

Now I'm not saying this has to happen when religious education occurs but it just seems to be a recurring theme in EVERY single instance I research. Whether it is saudi funded textbooks, horrible christian bigotry or buddhist meditation...wait forget the last one. That was just wishful thinking.

Then you clearly haven't done enough research. I did received Religion and Ethics as a class. Nowhere was I taught to hate homosexuals or non-Muslims. Science was never rejected or criticized as being misguided. Religion class in elementary school was more of a history of Abrahamic religions and other Asian religions and mostly practices of Muslims. Non-Muslims had the option not to attend them. Some did though as it was an easy way of increasing average grade for the year. In high school, it became more of an ethics class where we would discuss current issues. The teacher played more of a moderator role than a tutor. After all, their job was to inform us of ethical issue and not dictate them. So, keep on researching and do not focus on Saudi text books.

Buddhism doesn't really have a place in discussion of religion as well...

[frozenprince]

Turkish religious schools, called Imam Hatip Highschools, are a school that you can attend once you're done with elementary school at an age of 14. The current law that AKP based allows such religious schools to get students 4 years earlier. Instead of pushing it later, they're pulling it earlier.

AH, thanks for the info, sorry to say im not terribly imformed on the ins and outs of the turkish school system.

[Denny Crane!]

Then you clearly haven't done enough research. I did received Religion and Ethics as a class. Nowhere was I taught to hate homosexuals or non-Muslims. Science was never rejected or criticized as being misguided. Religion class in elementary school was more of a history of Abrahamic religions and other Asian religions and mostly practices of Muslims. Non-Muslims had the option not to attend them. Some did though as it was an easy way of increasing average grade for the year. In high school, it became more of an ethics class where we would discuss current issues. The teacher played more of a moderator role than a tutor. After all, their job was to inform us of ethical issue and not dictate them. So, keep on researching and do not focus on Saudi text books.

I don't focus on text books I focus on the experience of my own and others that have since attended Christian influenced fanaticism at the most fanatic school in the UK, it hasn't changed in ohhh 20 years? So please tell me I don't know what I'm talking about since I have not only experienced it but have seen it develop over 2 decades in an institution that has developed and spread throughout the north or England.

As for Saudi funded text books this is another phenomenon that despite not having experienced is prevalent throughout the UK thanks to the great and stupid initiative that is faith schools.

I'd say keep on researching and perhaps look into the UK experience of religious teaching and just how it is.

Buddhism doesn't really have a place in discussion of religion as well...

Really considering it is a religion with 376 million believers that would be the 4th largest religion in the world but you wouldn't consider it? That particular view would be an utterly bigoted one and not one that I would attribute to you so I'm sure you are mistaken in it.

I'm a buddhist, my thai wife is a buddhist who attends temple religiously (ha look at that multiple uses of the same word who would have thought it, not you obviously) and treats buddhism as a religion. Now I don't yet under the many definitions of the word it still is to me, but it most certainly is by any definition to her and the 80 odd million in her country and the hundreds of millions of buddhists in the countries surrounding that country.

Now I know, I know, that country and the ones surrounding it are quite far away and of course yellow peoples views contain less importance but you know what it is they have just enough money today that people are thinking they might just be influential enough for them to have as much of an opinion as a white or brown man!!!! Crazy I know.

So it turns out that when they think and treat and live with Buddhism as a religion despite them not having preconceived and abrahamic prejudices that it could still be considered as a religion.

To sum up...prejudice at the door, ethnocentrism at the door, and we'll let that comment go.

[PointOfViewGun]

I don't focus on text books I focus on the experience of my own and others that have since attended Christian influenced fanaticism at the most fanatic school in the UK, it hasn't changed in ohhh 20 years? So please tell me I don't know what I'm talking about since I have not only experienced it but have seen it develop over 2 decades in an institution that has developed and spread throughout the north or England.

As for Saudi funded text books this is another phenomenon that despite not having experienced is prevalent throughout the UK thanks to the great and stupid initiative that is faith schools.

I'd say keep on researching and perhaps look into the UK experience of religious teaching and just how it is.

So, basically, your knowledge is mostly limited to the cases in U.K. You should start with that. You responded to a person living in Canada, on an international forum, in a thread about a news from Turkey. Try to be more relevant.

Really considering it is a religion with 376 million believers that would be the 4th largest religion in the world but you wouldn't consider it? That particular view would be an utterly bigoted one and not one that I would attribute to you so I'm sure you are mistaken in it.

I'm a buddhist, my thai wife is a buddhist who attends temple religiously (ha look at that multiple uses of the same word who would have thought it, not you obviously) and treats buddhism as a religion. Now I don't yet under the many definitions of the word it still is to me, but it most certainly is by any definition to her and the 80 odd million in her country and the hundreds of millions of buddhists in the countries surrounding that country.

Now I know, I know, that country and the ones surrounding it are quite far away and of course yellow peoples views contain less importance but you know what it is they have just enough money today that people are thinking they might just be influential enough for them to have as much of an opinion as a white or brown man!!!! Crazy I know.

So it turns out that when they think and treat and live with Buddhism as a religion despite them not having preconceived and abrahamic prejudices that it could still be considered as a religion.

To sum up...prejudice at the door, ethnocentrism at the door, and we'll let that comment go.

I'm not really gonna start a useless discussion with you on such an issue but I could call eating an apple a religion. It wouldn't really make it one. So, even if Buddhism is in fact a religion you're not making a good case for it. Even then, it's quite stupid thing to compare a "thing" like Buddhism with many religions. Would you compare a Jaguar car with a Caterpillar truck? You wouldn't. You make so many assumptions though and it never helps to post such a knee-jerk response. Some things you say are simply retarded and outright offensive but I'm gonna let it go as a mistake made under pressure.

[motiv-8]

I was taught to hate gays. And quite frankly homophobia and religion seems to go hand in hand. I was also taught that science is misguided and muslims are evil (well not quite but it was implied). I was basically preached ignorance every morning for an hour.

Now I'm not saying this has to happen when religious education occurs but it just seems to be a recurring theme in EVERY single instance I research. Whether it is saudi funded textbooks, horrible christian bigotry or buddhist meditation...wait forget the last one. That was just wishful thinking.

It might be anecdotal, but my girlfriend attended religious-based institutions in Ohio throughout her education until college. She had a long-time classmate who came out as a homosexual, in front of basically the entire school. He said, "I don't care what you say, I don't care if you hate me, this is the way I am." Not only did they not attack him, but they applauded him and things were basically as normal.

Can religious education establishments be centers of hate and bigotry? Abso-freakin-lutely. But it's as you say, it's not something that HAS to happen and really it's not something that does always happen, or even happens with incredible frequency. It's much less important whether education is from a religious institution than how the quality of the curriculum presented is. I cringe at how this small bit of news in Turkey will be presented to large numbers of people when really it's no different than the millions of Americans and other Westerners who send their kids to faith-based schools.

[frozenprince]

Honestly? This is news?

[PointOfViewGun]

Rofl, people are actually complaining about this? What's wrong with religious education?

Honestly? This is news?

What is the place of the government in religious education? It is the responsibility of the parents, not the public schools. The 4+4+4 system makes a student choose a field of study at age of 10...

[frozenprince]

What is the place of the government in religious education? It is the responsibility of the parents, not the public schools. The 4+4+4 system makes a student choose a field of study at age of 10...

Im not saying that its a good thing that kids these days are forced to go through such a school system. But adding another level of it, and just happening to make it religious, doesn't seem to me to meen all that much. Education needs reform in a lot of places, maybe turkey does and maybe it doesn't it depends on the quality of these schools and what happens with this legislation and FUTURE legislation that is important. Though I am interested to see a compulsary religious based school, instead of as a secondary option to the public system.

I don't know, I just don't see much of a reason to have this topic in the Mudpit other than to discuss education reform, or just turning it into another Muslims v Christians debate, except this time with teachings in play.

[garudamon11]

I dont get the point of religious education
What does it generate? it certainly doesnt produce something useful to the society, it mostly produces imams, clergymen, and such useless roles that fit into the middle ages

[Blaze86420]

I dont get the point of religious education
What does it generate? it certainly doesnt produce something useful to the society, it mostly produces imams, clergymen, and such useless roles that fit into the middle ages

For starters, it helps reduce the number of angry teenagers who really don't know much about religion but choose to hate it anyways because doing so is hip.

[motiv-8]

I dont get the point of religious education
What does it generate? it certainly doesnt produce something useful to the society, it mostly produces imams, clergymen, and such useless roles that fit into the middle ages

Er, no, not at all. The vast, huge, overwhelming (insert other superlative here) proportion of those who receive a religious education do not join the clergy or take up a religious career.

Just like how people who go to a Liberal Arts school don't all end up as liberals, or artists.

[neoptolemos]

I think the New York Department of Education banning words like "dinosaur," "Halloween" and "dancing" from standardized tests in fear of kids experiencing "unpleasant emotions" from reading such words is more controversial than Turkey's move.

OMG the political correctness goes to another level of stupidity i suppose....

Er, no, not at all. The vast, huge, overwhelming (insert other superlative here) proportion of those who receive a religious education do not join the clergy or take up a religious career.

Just like how people who go to a Liberal Arts school don't all end up as liberals, or artists.

That's a good point.
The problem of the religious education consists of the indoctrination and personally i reckon that this is heavily based on the individuals that are teaching or indoctrinate and not the religion or the religious courses themselves. A crooked or a fanatic unfortunately will embody his beliefs or ideas into the religious course and subsequently he will affect the pupils.....

But generally i don't have any problem with religious schools.As long they tend to be supplementary to basic education and not constitute the education itself.And furthermore there must be a certain set of regulations in which these schools will function.

[YukonTrooper]

I think the New York Department of Education banning words like "dinosaur," "Halloween" and "dancing" from standardized tests in fear of kids experiencing "unpleasant emotions" from reading such words is more controversial than Turkey's move.

[Tureuki]

There is already a religion and ethics lesson, people learns religions from it, there is nothing good about implying religious matters to kids who is have no idea on what they're learning, a 10 years old kid will continue education in religious school by the choose of himself or parents ?