Jewish Spearmen: Why so Tough?

[chomskola]

I have a horrid time fighting these guys as Carthage. The AS have them in droves. They seem to last forever and die very very slowly. recently I have been figthing them on my walls and they give Liby Phoenicians a run for their money and even stand up to Scutarii. Is there a specific reason for this? At this point Id rather fight Agryraspides than these guys. Come to think of it, it is kinda weird that on the walls, when i defending my scutarii..fight like...scutarii..when im attacking the AI their Akontistai fight like they are scutarii?

[HannibalExMachina]

its because of

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[athanaric]

Well yeah, they have good stats. Don't know the precise reasoning for that, but it's a fact that various factions, specifically Persians and Diadochoi, have used Jewish soldiers with some success.

They probably won't be in EB II as a separate unit, IIRC (as far as I understood, Jews will be represented, along with other minorities, as part of Pantodapoi units and so on).

Also, don't forget that AI generals often have many command stars and morale-boosting traits, which will make their units fight harder. This may account for the Akontistai fighting prowess.

[Bladvak]

I think you have a horrid time fighting a lot of infantry with Carthage if you use Liby Phoenicians. Try to replace them and use some of their elite units (except Sacred Band infantry). Elite African Pikemen are ideal against Ptollies.

[athanaric]

Elite African Pikemen are ideal against Ptollies.

@chomskola
Never use them on walls, though. All phalanx pikemen suck on walls. Liby-Phoenicians aren't the ideal choice for assault, either (they're still very useful, though). The reformed "legionary" African swordsmen should fare better in these situations, and of course the Iberian Assault Infantry. Or Gallic swordsmen, if you like mercenaries.

[chomskola]

As ever, very enlightening responses. YOu mentioned Morale bonuses making units fight harder, I thought Morale jjust affected breaking status..i.e. 25% of unit depeleted within x time range = % chance to break and so on. Is there something I am missing?

SO you are saying swordsmen better on walls, but tying in with that, guard mode on or off on the wall? I have no idea, I guess off, to swarm the enemy, IMHO walls are bugged to a FUBAR degree anyway so its next to impossible to figure out what is working or not, anyone know any links to threads discussing the technics of Wall fighting?

thanks guys

[Ferdiad]

As ever, very enlightening responses. YOu mentioned Morale bonuses making units fight harder, I thought Morale jjust affected breaking status..i.e. 25% of unit depeleted within x time range = % chance to break and so on. Is there something I am missing?

SO you are saying swordsmen better on walls, but tying in with that, guard mode on or off on the wall? I have no idea, I guess off, to swarm the enemy, IMHO walls are bugged to a FUBAR degree anyway so its next to impossible to figure out what is working or not, anyone know any links to threads discussing the technics of Wall fighting?

thanks guys

Morale just means how long it takes for them to break, it has no combat bonus AFAIK.

[Bladvak]

As ever, very enlightening responses. YOu mentioned Morale bonuses making units fight harder, I thought Morale jjust affected breaking status..i.e. 25% of unit depeleted within x time range = % chance to break and so on. Is there something I am missing?

SO you are saying swordsmen better on walls, but tying in with that, guard mode on or off on the wall? I have no idea, I guess off, to swarm the enemy, IMHO walls are bugged to a FUBAR degree anyway so its next to impossible to figure out what is working or not, anyone know any links to threads discussing the technics of Wall fighting?

thanks guys

yeah, you got the morale thing almost perfect. there are also some morale shocks (from cavarly charges, general just died, friendly unit nearby routed) that you should also consider.

swordsmen are always better against spearmen. It's the long old triangle (which the phalanx upset): swordsmen vs spearmen, spearmen vs cavalry, cavalry vs swordsmen. The phalanx are good against all, if they point the sarissas towards the enemy.

guard off or guard on on the walls? sometimes off, sometimes on. try with both and see with which they win.

also, I suggest you adding the ExUIM mode so you see in-game all the units' stats. Very useful mod, but be wise and make backups before any changes.

[Entropy Judge]

swordsmen are always better against spearmen.

Except that that's *extremely* dependant on stats. Camillan Principes are much better than Camillan Hastati and can hold their own against Polybian Hastati as well. Great Spearmen (Speudogardoz) can take quite a few swordsmen units to town.

[Entropy Judge]

Attack, Defense, Lethality, and AP are the important ones, yes. In a one-on-one, Morale and Stamina aren't likely to come into play unless the units are very close otherwise, in which case the higher-Stamina unit is likely to win; Morale likely won't be an issue unless there is a size difference or a great Charge by one unit (in which case the rapid loss of units might contribute to an early rout).

For the Speudogardoz vs Polybian Principes, for example:
Attack: 16 (Effectively 12) (S) vs 11 (P)
Lethality: .15 (S) vs .13 (P)
Defense: 31 (S) vs 34 (P)
Armour: 7 vs 12
Shield: 2 vs 4
Skill: 12 vs 8
Morale: 15 vs 13
Stamina: Very Hardy vs Hardy
Mass: 1.2 vs 1.18

So those are the variables. Speudogardoz Attack is lowered by 4 vs Infantry due to the Light Spear trait (IIRC). Speudogardoz Attack and Lethality are both still higher than Principes. Defense is slightly in favor of the Principes, but Speudogardoz also have better Morale and Stamina. I seem to recall someone doing some testing and showing that Attack was better than Defense on a point-for-point basis, but whatever. It's still basically down to whether the Principes get a good volley off with their Pila, because it's going to be downright painful for them at best.

[chomskola]

Thanks Entropy. So, what you are saying is that Morale and stamina won't come into it if the units are similar because the point here or there in morale wouldnt matter so much versus the random bias of casualties on one unit or another...I guess.

SO when it comes to morale, I wonder how much does unit size come in? because some of the Elite units are quite small..is this a disadvantage for them in Morale terms? I always thought the biggest impact on morale was either heavy charge, or flanking/rearing.

The attack versus defence...are you saying that you read somewhere that attack is better than defence, i.e. 20 attack, 20 defence is better than 19 attack 21 defence? ALso, the Light Spear, is the light spear equivalent in every way when used against infantry as a sword with the same lethality? I thought so?

[Entropy Judge]

Thanks Entropy. So, what you are saying is that Morale and stamina won't come into it if the units are similar because the point here or there in morale wouldnt matter so much versus the random bias of casualties on one unit or another...I guess.

In a one-on-one situation. In group battles, Morale in particular is more important, because it affects how quickly a given unit will rout when something bad happens - like the General dying, being flanked, other units routing, and so on.

SO when it comes to morale, I wonder how much does unit size come in? because some of the Elite units are quite small..is this a disadvantage for them in Morale terms? I always thought the biggest impact on morale was either heavy charge, or flanking/rearing.

Elites, though small, also tend to have high Morale values, so the only real disadvantage the small size gives them is that they're more easily surrounded, and thus being affected by the flanking malus.

The attack versus defence...are you saying that you read somewhere that attack is better than defence, i.e. 20 attack, 20 defence is better than 19 attack 21 defence?

From what I remember of one person's testing, yes that would be correct.

ALso, the Light Spear, is the light spear equivalent in every way when used against infantry as a sword with the same lethality? I thought so?

Ah, I was wrong, according to this. Light Spear gets -4 *Defense* while Spear gets -4 Attack when fighting infantry.

[Bladvak]

SO when it comes to morale, I wonder how much does unit size come in? because some of the Elite units are quite small..is this a disadvantage for them in Morale terms? I always thought the biggest impact on morale was either heavy charge, or flanking/rearing.

The attack versus defence...are you saying that you read somewhere that attack is better than defence, i.e. 20 attack, 20 defence is better than 19 attack 21 defence? ALso, the Light Spear, is the light spear equivalent in every way when used against infantry as a sword with the same lethality? I thought so?

If a elite unit is small (number wise) then don't recruit it unless you really need it and can't recruit something larger. Example: only recruit Elite Liby-Phoenicians infantry (121 men) until you build a higher barrack and you can recruit Elite African Pikemen. And if these guys die, simply combine the units. They're not worth the money except to fill the time gap.

As for the stats, IMHO, this is the priority for the melee units:
1. armour (perfect example: polybian principes are better than camillan principes)
2. attack (this also means the lethality)
3. number in unit (120-men infantry units out of the ecuation from the start)
4. armour penetrating?
5. morale
6. defence
7. charge (if it's not cavalry, in which case this goes/replaces 3rd place)

a good thing to do is also check special abilities for these guys, like hardy or disciplined, etc.

I do admit that I don't always follow these rules, or sometimes even go for the thing that my army doesn't have.

for special units (elephants, siege machines, chariots):
1. special abilities (morale lowering, attacking walls, etc)
2. attack

[mamik_yev_konak]

Not sure if this has been mentioned before, but you just might be using Hard or Very Hard for the Battle Difficulty, especially if lower-tiered units seem to be fighting on par with your higher-tiered units.