Department Of Homeland Security purchasing up to 450 million .40 hollow points, up to 175 million .223 rounds

[YukonTrooper]

From Business Insider:

The Department of Homeland Security (DHS) and its Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) office is getting an "indefinite delivery" of an "indefinite quantity" of .40 caliber ammunition from defense contractor ATK.

U.S. agents will receive a maximum of 450 million rounds over five years, according to a press release on the deal.

The high performance HST bullets are designed for law enforcement and ATK says they offer "optimum penetration for terminal performance."

This refers to the the bullet's hollow-point tip that passes through barriers and expands for a bigger impact without the rest of the bullet getting warped out of shape: "this bullet holds its jacket in the toughest conditions."

We've also learned that the Department has an open bid for a stockpile of rifle ammo. Listed on the federal business opportunities network, they're looking for up to 175 million rounds of .223 caliber ammo to be exact. The .223 is almost exactly the same round used by NATO forces, the 5.56 x 45mm.

The deadline for earlier this month was extended because the right contractor just hadn't come along.

Looks like the Department of Homeland Security means business.

This is outrageous, is it not? What does a domestic agency need 450 million hollow point rounds for? Is there a war that DHS is engaged in that I've missed on the news or something?

Also, I like this part: "This refers to the the bullet's hollow-point tip that passes through barriers and expands for a bigger impact without the rest of the bullet getting warped out of shape." Isn't the bullet being warped out of shape the point of a hollow point? Those are the author's words, but it looks like he's only paraphrasing what ATK and DHS say about the ammo. Maybe an ammo expert can clear that one up.

[Erwin Rommel]

Zombies.

They are just being prudent. I applaud them for this.

[justicar5]

how many agents do they have? How much practice shooting do they do? How long are they planning ahead for? Could this be a sneaky 'stimulus' of the ammo industry? Tho yes this seems a hell of a lot of bullets.

WAit look at what homeland security includes, US Customs Service, the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center, US Coast Guard, Federal Protective Service. Those guys I'd expect to put in some range time no?

[Sphere]

This is outrageous, is it not? What does a domestic agency need 450 million hollow point rounds for? Is there a war that DHS is engaged in that I've missed on the news or something?

I am pretty sure agents have reoccurring weapons re-certification and mandatory training. That would eat up a few hundred rounds per person per year.

US Customs and Border Patrol alone has 45,600 sworn agents, for the whole DHS who knows. I don't know how many need weapons certification, but do a little dividing and you see that ~100 million rounds a year is probably only a few hundred round per agent.

Bigger question though, is why do DHS agents get to use 40 cal. while the US Military is stuck with the weaker 9mm Parabellum? There's some irony.

[justicar5]

I am pretty sure agents have reoccurring weapons re-certification and mandatory training. That would eat up a few hundred rounds per person per year.

US Customs and Border Patrol alone has 45,600 sworn agents, for the whole DHS who knows. I don't know how many need weapons certification, but do a little dividing and you see that ~100 million rounds a year is probably only a few hundred round per agent.

Bigger question though, is why do DHS agents get to use 40 cal. while the US Military is stuck with the weaker 9mm Parabellum? There's some irony.

I'd guess because 9mm para is NATO standard.

[YukonTrooper]

US Customs and Border Patrol alone has 45,600 sworn agents, for the whole DHS who knows. I don't know how many need weapons certification, but do a little dividing and you see that ~100 million rounds a year is probably only a few hundred round per agent.

DHS has a little over 200,000 employees. Let's assume 100,000 of those are weapon carrying agents (I have no idea is this is an accurate assumption). 450,000,000/100,000 = 4,500 bullets per .40 Glock. 4,500/5 = 900 rounds per year, per weapon carrying agent. How often is weapon recertification and how many rounds on average are fired per session? This is also assuming that all 100,000 agents train with a .40 caliber pistol.

At any rate, I see the sale primary as a siphoning of taxpayer dollars to private interests in the arms-industry. A continuation of Dwight D. Eisenhower's military-industrial-complex. This reason alone should anger Americans, as the superfluous spending does not benefit the taxpayer at all, especially in these trying economic times.

[chilon]

DHS has a little over 200,000 employees. Let's assume 100,000 of those are weapon carrying agents (I have no idea is this is an accurate assumption). .

I would say that assumption is extremely high considering how many DHS employees are the slightly above-minimum security guards at airports. I don't think I've ever seen an armed DHS at the airport (they could be behind the scenes though but with how many DHS they have at security checks I can't imagine that a large percentage of DHS are weapon carrying agents. Id probably guess more like 10-15% at most.

[xcorps]

DHS has a little over 200,000 employees. Let's assume 100,000 of those are weapon carrying agents (I have no idea is this is an accurate assumption). 450,000,000/100,000 = 4,500 bullets per .40 Glock. 4,500/5 = 900 rounds per year, per weapon carrying agent. How often is weapon recertification and how many rounds on average are fired per session? This is also assuming that all 100,000 agents train with a .40 caliber pistol.

At any rate, I see the sale primary as a siphoning of taxpayer dollars to private interests in the arms-industry. A continuation of Dwight D. Eisenhower's military-industrial-complex. This reason alone should anger Americans, as the superfluous spending does not benefit the taxpayer at all, especially in these trying economic times.

Dig us up historical stats on the number of rounds purchased per year. If there is a large disparity in this years and last years, you can have some outrage. If there isn't find something else to rail on.

[YukonTrooper]

Dig us up historical stats on the number of rounds purchased per year. If there is a large disparity in this years and last years, you can have some outrage. If there isn't find something else to rail on.

So it looks like this contract succeeds a 3-year, 250,000,000 round contract from 2009. And apparently law officials use hollow-point because it reduces ricochet, so the choice of ammunition is not out of the ordinary either.

My main reservation still stands though: a half-billion round purchase is indicative of an arms industry that is over-the-top and unnecessary. DHS is a monstrosity, along with most of its umbrella organizations. I can't remember the last time anybody found al-Qaeda hiding in their backyard bushes.

Having said all that, I don't think this thread was worth starting.

[xcorps]

So it looks like this contract succeeds a 3-year, 250,000,000 round contract from 2009. And apparently law officials use hollow-point because it reduces ricochet, so the choice of ammunition is not out of the ordinary either.

My main reservation still stands though: a half-billion round purchase is indicative of an arms industry that is over-the-top and unnecessary. DHS is a monstrosity, along with most of its umbrella organizations. I can't remember the last time anybody found al-Qaeda hiding in their backyard bushes.

Having said all that, I don't think this thread was worth starting.

I agree that DHS is a monstrosity, along with the DOJ.

[Gelgoog]

So it looks like this contract succeeds a 3-year, 250,000,000 round contract from 2009. And apparently law officials use hollow-point because it reduces ricochet, so the choice of ammunition is not out of the ordinary either.

Hollowpoints are used because they are more effective then FMJ. The only reason the military does not use hollowpoints is due to international treaty banning them from use. A hollowpoint is designed to mushroom when it hits tissue causing the round to dump all of its kinetic energy into the person without over penetrating like a FMJ and being potentially dangerous to bystanders. Even 9x19 FMJ will go right through a person if it is not stopped by bone.

The reason why .40 S&W is favored by law enforcement is because it is a compromise. Due to its dimensions it can be re-chambered in just about every 9x19 frame sized firearm on the market while only giving up about 1 round in your magazine. Ballistically it is pretty close to .45 acp, but offers alot more flexibility.

My main reservation still stands though: a half-billion round purchase is indicative of an arms industry that is over-the-top and unnecessary. DHS is a monstrosity, along with most of its umbrella organizations. I can't remember the last time anybody found al-Qaeda hiding in their backyard bushes.

DHS was organized after the attacks of 9/11 where it was found that inter-agency coordination was pretty abysmal. The FBI would not relay information to local law enforcement, radios did not work between agencies, and sometimes like in the fire departments would not even work with other station houses. DHS had little to do with capturing Al-Qaeda terrorists and was more about cooperation between agencies and has been a huge success (probably the most successful thing the bush administration did).

450 million rounds of ammunition is not that much ammunition for the entire US law enforcement community. 500-1000 rounds a year is not that much to train with, and alot of state and local enforcement agencies will not even get that much. They only gave us 500 rounds to get proficient with our glock 22 at my academy, and I can tell you being a lifelong shooter that 500 rounds is hardly anything. I can drop over 1000 rounds when I go to the practice range using my personal firearms and I can assure you that it takes thousands upon thousands of rounds to become proficient with a firearm.

[Rolling Thunder]

I am pretty sure agents have reoccurring weapons re-certification and mandatory training. That would eat up a few hundred rounds per person per year.

US Customs and Border Patrol alone has 45,600 sworn agents, for the whole DHS who knows. I don't know how many need weapons certification, but do a little dividing and you see that ~100 million rounds a year is probably only a few hundred round per agent.

Bigger question though, is why do DHS agents get to use 40 cal. while the US Military is stuck with the weaker 9mm Parabellum? There's some irony.

Because .40 is supersonic and has a killer muzzle flash, while only delivering marginal performance enhancement. Also, standardization with NATO allies.

[Border Patrol]

Want to see outrageous? I got an offer where they flat out told me I would make no more than 62 grand a year.
http://www.dhs.gov/xabout/careers/gc_1297721105691.shtm

Silly bastards. Good luck protecting your IP from Chinese intelligence. Why the concern about an ammo purchase though? I mean, really. You're just looking for reasons to be outraged at the government of a nation you're not even subject to.

[Sphere]

I'd guess because 9mm para is NATO standard.

Well, obviously. But the NATO standard should have been made the good old .45 APC. Instead they chose a round that not even border patrol agents carry.

[justicar5]

Well, obviously. But the NATO standard should have been made the good old .45 APC. Instead they chose a round that not even border patrol agents carry.

They should have made the rifles .303 British as well.... but someone decided that lighter and faster rounds where better (that and SMGs that could fire .45 ACP where oversized pigs when the idea of standardisation came up)

[Gaidin]

10mm/.40cal is always federal law enforcement standard(and I imagine most local standards) as they typically don't use their sidearms to compliment an assault rifle and thus need it to have the stopping power of a primary weapon should it be needed for such a use.

[Sphere]

10mm/.40cal is always federal law enforcement standard(and I imagine most local standards) as they typically don't use their sidearms to compliment an assault rifle and thus need it to have the stopping power of a primary weapon should it be needed for such a use.

Your apologism is sickening. Bottom line is the US Military is using a Nazi bullet, I'm pretty sure that's unconstitutional.

They should have made the rifles .303 British as well.... but someone decided that lighter and faster rounds where better (that and SMGs that could fire .45 ACP where oversized pigs when the idea of standardisation came up)

Actually twas the brits who first wanted to adopt a small caliber high velocity round and they designed the EM-2 right after WWII. But in the 1940's-50's the US wanted the 7.62. Long story short, NATO adopted the 7.62 and the british rifle died. Years latter the US came around to the British idea and forced the adoption of the 5.56.

[chamaeleo]

Bulk discount?

Which government official signed off...and when was the last time he met with the ATK's lobbyist?

And the .45 isn't so accurate at long range compared to 9 and 10mm, and mags don't hold as many rounds.

As for mushrooming in hollowpoints: they're the best compromise between penetration and maximizing bodily carnage.

[Sphere]

And the .45 isn't so accurate at long range compared to 9 and 10mm, and mags don't hold as many rounds.

Fascist.

[mrmouth]

The adoption of a 9mm pistol was, aside from cost, about the wide variety of people - gender, size of hands, hand shape, hand strength, and previous shooting prowess. The 1911 fell out of favor because recruits were not used to recoil, and some could not be expected to adapt. Particularly women. And they typically outshoot men with smaller caliber pistols, for some reason.

But a trained shooter is really not going to be any less accurate with the .45 APC. That person is going to group shots under 4-5" at 25yds with any modern chambering. Beyond that, you'd better have slung a long gun.