Rome vs. Sarmatians

[castlebravo]

So my war as Rome against the perfidious Macedonians, Greeks, and Dacians eventually brought me face to face with the Sarmatian hordes from the east.

I have fought battle after battle against elite armies of Macedon and Greece and dispatched them, if not with ease, at least they were eventually ground into dust.

The Sarmatians are a different matter. Their horse archers are...something else.

The only tactic that I have that is effective in the field (as opposed to defending cities) is forming a base of high armor infantry (typically, Allied triari mixed with Athenian marines and Athenian or related elite hoplites) with the armored Greek archer (forget the name at the moment - their armor is at 25 though). This works to the extent that it will let me win *a* battle, but it's not a dominating win by any means...I usually suffer 50% casualties and have to retreat the army back to Greece to replace the losses (triari can be locally provisioned). Since I'm playing 0-turn, it's a 3-4 turn process to cycle troops back and fro from Greece to the steppes. In the meantime, Sarmatia is able to churn out another 3-4 stacks of horse archers.

Anything else gets cut to shreds. I had a full stack of 6+ experience Hippotaxi get cut to shreds against their horse archers (yes, not historically accurate for the Romans, but horse archers work great against the phalanx formations that seem to make mincemeat of my legions). Their experience didn't make up the difference in their armor values and the 20 extra men per unit that the Sarmatians have.

I've tried advancing to the Marian reforms, but losing the calvary bonus of the triari is...bad, really bad. Then they just charge your line over and over until your units break, and then your archers are liquidated with ease.

Anyone worked out some tactics as the Romans vs. Sarmatians other than sheer attrition?

[Spike]

just wanna say "wellcome to the Romans' Historical weakness - against horse-centric people"

the best option for you is still sheer attrition, but you can always try aggresive siege tactics, where their horse advantage is highly negated

and I say do the marian reform, better legionary armour means you can stood more chance against those deadly hail of arrows

[castlebravo]

Can't really afford the Marian reforms at this point.

I'm literally barely holding the Sarmatians at bay (it doesn't help that the Arveni and Germans are attacking regularly besieging my frontier cities in northern Italy with 2-3 full stacks - I can beat them back, but it drains resources that I could otherwise dedicate to reducing the Sarmatian menace).

Right now, most of my "Empire" is comprised of allied states. I gave citizenship to Pella (mainly so I could more conveniently replace the generals being killed off on the Russian steppes =/), but every other city east of Italy is an allied city. I haven't built out the Roman oppidum buildings, so Marian reforms would cripple me. I would literally be rolled all the way back to Macedon if I executed them now.

The problem I'm having with besieging their cities is the relief armies of 15 units of horse archers that hit me in the rear. So typically I have to besiege their cities with 3 stacks (1 for the siege, 2 to defend the besieger). I'm having a hard time amassing 3 full stacks for offense. I did manage to capture 3 of the Bosporan cities, so I'm slowly building up a base there (upgrading to fortified economic regions and building out the foundries). But right now, it's a situation where they are too strong to attack, and too weak to attack from. They are the highway through which the Sarmatian hordes pass through to get to attack the cities just north of Histrya. I need a mobile army of like 6 stacks. Right now I don't even have 1. Everything is tied down to defense (city garrisons) or relief of cities under siege.

And the damn Gauls and Germans keep attacking me, which keeps diverting resources away from the real threat to Europe - the Russian hordes.

[LoGaL]

Y U NO have reforms????????
Btw i found that the best units you can recruit to face the sarmatians are in the bosphoran kingdom, if you conquer it with a raid you can get good spearmen, good archers and even heavy cavalry with 50+ charge bonus by developing the allied city barracks
I would personally go for a mix of lancers and some heavy infantry and the maximum number of archer units you can protect safely with infantry, then add some very good cavalry ( the lancers in bosphorus seem to me the best choice)
Roman cavalry risks to loose in meeele engagement vs the horse archers so i wouldn't suggest to use them
Btw it seems that you are invading the steppes with 1-2 stacks? that isn't going to work especially at the point of the game you describe
To overwelm the sarmatians you need a lot of stacks

[austerlitz]

Welcome to roma surrectum mate,u have already made a cardinal mistake u haven't clenaed up all of western europe before bordering sarmatians.The sarmatians are the single deadliest threat for rome in rs2,i have played the roman campaign thrice and always they were there.The main reason is because cavalry is so so cheap in rs2 they can spam stacks.Legions are useless except for sieges and holding cities.
My final answer was to do the reforms and spam the alani heavy lancer auxilla horseman[u get them if u hold scythia and do the reforms].
Till then endure sieges with lots of artillery/archers.The only other option is to spam praetorian cavalry.
In the open field u are heavily outgunned,their scythian royal archers are deadliest they will shower u and on top of that have a deadly charge.Add to that their own alani armoured lancers,which u get as auxilla.
Or if ur really desperate,leave frontier cities to rebel by taxing up,once they form roman rebels the sarmatians won't attack roman rebels and u might gain a breather.U need to use it to maximize ur infrastructure and kill the gaul and germanics.
Hope it helps.In fact these days i get so incensed about sarmatians i always see to it to financially support their enemies from early game and send troops to keep them in check long before i have a border with them.The objective being to see that neither scythia nor sarmatia win over each other.

[LegionaireX]

Welcome to roma surrectum mate,u have already made a cardinal mistake u haven't clenaed up all of western europe before bordering sarmatians.The sarmatians are the single deadliest threat for rome in rs2,i have played the roman campaign thrice and always they were there.The main reason is because cavalry is so so cheap in rs2 they can spam stacks.Legions are useless except for sieges and holding cities.
My final answer was to do the reforms and spam the alani heavy lancer auxilla horseman[u get them if u hold scythia and do the reforms].
Till then endure sieges with lots of artillery/archers.The only other option is to spam praetorian cavalry.
In the open field u are heavily outgunned,their scythian royal archers are deadliest they will shower u and on top of that have a deadly charge.Add to that their own alani armoured lancers,which u get as auxilla.
Or if ur really desperate,leave frontier cities to rebel by taxing up,once they form roman rebels the sarmatians won't attack roman rebels and u might gain a breather.U need to use it to maximize ur infrastructure and kill the gaul and germanics.
Hope it helps.In fact these days i get so incensed about sarmatians i always see to it to financially support their enemies from early game and send troops to keep them in check long before i have a border with them.The objective being to see that neither scythia nor sarmatia win over each other.

wow! Sounds epic, can't wait to face them

[castlebravo]

>Welcome to roma surrectum mate,u have already made a cardinal mistake u haven't clenaed up all of western europe before bordering sarmatians.

Unfortunately, my expansion has been dictated by who has declared war on me and who was sending mega stacks at me. For the longest time this was Macedon and Greece primarily, and Carthage and Spain secondarily. It's been less about what awesome areas can I conquer and more about where is the enemy getting income and generating their elite stacks from?

[century x]

Horse archers are the worst to conquer.

Rome's legions are somewhat useless. What I found as a tactic is to change the format of your field legions. Replace most of the infantry with cavalry and you have to use maneuver tactics to push the horse archers to your spear-men and then you can attack from two sides.

[LegionaireX]

Horse archers are the worst to conquer.

Rome's legions are somewhat useless.

Is the testudo ability useless?
^
I haven't faced HA, haven't gotten the post-marian reforms

[Pe Ell]

Welcome to roma surrectum mate,u have already made a cardinal mistake u haven't clenaed up all of western europe before bordering sarmatians.The sarmatians are the single deadliest threat for rome in rs2,i have played the roman campaign thrice and always they were there.The main reason is because cavalry is so so cheap in rs2 they can spam stacks.Legions are useless except for sieges and holding cities.
My final answer was to do the reforms and spam the alani heavy lancer auxilla horseman[u get them if u hold scythia and do the reforms].
Till then endure sieges with lots of artillery/archers.The only other option is to spam praetorian cavalry.
In the open field u are heavily outgunned,their scythian royal archers are deadliest they will shower u and on top of that have a deadly charge.Add to that their own alani armoured lancers,which u get as auxilla.
Or if ur really desperate,leave frontier cities to rebel by taxing up,once they form roman rebels the sarmatians won't attack roman rebels and u might gain a breather.U need to use it to maximize ur infrastructure and kill the gaul and germanics.
Hope it helps.In fact these days i get so incensed about sarmatians i always see to it to financially support their enemies from early game and send troops to keep them in check long before i have a border with them.The objective being to see that neither scythia nor sarmatia win over each other.

Hi Rome, my name is Parthia, I produce armoured horse archers with the same range as foot archers and cathapracts that kills everything.

Nah, I do agree with you. Sarmatia is real troublesome to fight. There has a been a ton of threads named "How do I fight horsearchers?" or the like. Regardless of the solution it is likely to be the bloodiest fight in the game. But there are a couple of things you can do.
Testudo is as said useless, but having named legions does help despite losing triarii. Their higher armor makes them more resilient to arrows as well as helping out in close combat for when the charge comes.
I advice you to play somewhat agressive on the campaign map, gather up a force of 2-3 stacks and push straight for a city. For every city you take they can train less troops. It doesn't matter if it is slow advance, just wait for reinforcement to replace losses then push again. Sitting back isn't gonna win you the war.
Once you fight them on the battle field you will want to do the opposite, sit back and don't chase them. Don't EVER chase out against a full horse archer stack. They will just bolt in every direction and surround your poor troops. And then you get arrows in the unprotected butt. Or knees, yeah, arrows in the knees. Coz we all know what happens then.
Uh.
Only time to chase is when 90% of them are dead and you're cleaning up, assuming you have enough left standing to do so. Other than that, hold your army together like your life depended on it, coz it does.
Your composition should be something like: 5-8 good archers (eyrytanes toxotai, the greek armoured ones, are probably your best choice), 6 or so strong spearmen/heavy infantry units to form a main front line for your archers to hide behind. If they have javelins (someone mentioned bosphoran heavy infantry, those guys are an awesome choice) make sure you turn on fire at will if their heavy cavarly looks like it wants to charge. Nothing says screw you to a charge like 200 javelins in the face. Rest of the stack should be cavalry to protect the flanks. Pre marian you are kinda screwed for cavalry choices sadly, I guess campanians are the best. Maybe there are some allied ones, germanic mercenaries or so, but dunno how much access you have. If you can grab Chersonessos, Pantikapon or any of the other cities there you will have tanais cathapract, which while not being perfect against horse archers (no shields) is pretty good meleé to ward of their heavy horse.
Advance slowly, keep your army together until you are within archer range of them, then start to pick of their horse archers one by one by target firing your archers. Don't waste arrows on their levy spearmen! Always target down HA's that are trying to flank you first. If they charge your infantry line use your cavalry to tie them there until they die.

And for the love of Mars don't fight uphill unless you really must or have a huge number of men to throw away.

Or get horse archer of your own to fight fire with fire.

Still gonna be bloody though.

Good luck!

[austerlitz]

I find parthia easier because they come after i have reformed up and usually dealt with the rebellion,also by this time i have the alani auxilla horseman available to counter armoured horses.

[austerlitz]

I find parthia easier because they come after i have reformed up and usually dealt with the rebellion,also by this time i have the alani auxilla horseman available to counter armoured horses.Sarmatia comes way too early.

[Ferdiad]

I find parthia easier because they come after i have reformed up and usually dealt with the rebellion,also by this time i have the alani auxilla horseman available to counter armoured horses.

Sure you have reforms and loads of money but Parthia also has everything east of the Golden Horn and uncountable stacks of HA and Catas. They are by Far the biggest threat in the whole campaign.

[century x]

Horse Archers Vs. Horse Archers is very difficult to manage on the battlefield. Using your units on the field at certain points can make it easier. Using heavy cavarly while corning them is another method I use

[S6k6l6v]

Or get horse archer of your own to fight fire with fire.

That's my tactic right there.

[castlebravo]

Y U NO have reforms????????

In an earlier game I went with the reforms and the Sarmatians went through me like a sword through tissue paper. Once you go Marian reforms, you lose the levy pikemen, the athenian hoplites & marines, the armored greek archers, triari, etc. In other words, you lose a lot of good, cheap units and your primary (cheap) anti-cav units.

Btw i found that the best units you can recruit to face the sarmatians are in the bosphoran kingdom, if you conquer it with a raid you can get good spearmen, good archers and even heavy cavalry with 50+ charge bonus by developing the allied city barracks

Yes, I now have 3 cities in the Bosporus. That's my 4+ turn plan is to crank out units from here. Not there yet, but a large foundry is on the way.

I would personally go for a mix of lancers and some heavy infantry and the maximum number of archer units you can protect safely with infantry, then add some very good cavalry ( the lancers in bosphorus seem to me the best choice)

That's generally what I do. 8-10 infantry, 6-7 archers, 2 cav. Cav is used to rescue the rear if the Sarmatian cavalry flanks me and crashes into my line.

Roman cavalry risks to loose in meeele engagement vs the horse archers so i wouldn't suggest to use them

Even if I wanted to, the nearest Roman cav come from Pella, and it's busy churning out generals, and infantry. Only cav I'm using is Hippotaxi, Bosporan Cataphracts, and Greek lancers. I tried all cav vs. all cav, and got blasted, so it's mainly infantry vs. cavalry.

Btw it seems that you are invading the steppes with 1-2 stacks? that isn't going to work especially at the point of the game you describe To overwelm the sarmatians you need a lot of stacks

Well, I initially hit them with 6 stacks with 3 9 star generals. I managed to take 5 of their cities that way. Now everything is tied down in garrisons, and the Sarmatians have countered with 6+ mobile stacks of their own. And then the Arveni and Germans got frisky. If I was able to allocate all 80k of my surplus each turn, then I could grind the Sarmatians down, but I routinely have 6 stacks of Gauls and Germans bearing down on my two frontier cities north of the Alps, the Dacians keep besieging cities in Illyria (although they are mostly beaten now), and the Spanish are holding on in southern Gaul and northern Spain with two cities...but still cranking out 2 stacks a turn that I have to deal with.

Once I can integrate Hispania, then a lot of dominoes should fall (ie, Gaul - which will allow me to concentrate resources on the Eastern campaign).

Assuming Pergamemnon or Egypt doesn't attack me.

[LegionaireX]

wouldn't the legionnaire's testudo ability by the post Marion-Reforms help you?

[RafoutRoud]

wouldn't the legionnaire's testudo ability by the post Marion-Reforms help you?

Testudo isn't a post marian ability.

[Ferdiad]

Yes Testudo is useless.

[LegionaireX]

Yes Testudo is useless.

Okay then, Ill have to do some planning ahead in game

Now historically was the testudo useless?