Mongols just destroyed me

[Badnercalabrese]

Hello, first I want to say nice mod!
although I'm extremely angry. I was playing a campaign with the Khwarezmid Empire.
I don't even think I can salvage my campaign since my two primary cities just got taken. I even tried using the money cheat as the Mongols came (my ignorance to Middle Eastern history made me unaware that MY LANDS will be first to get pillaged) I was not expecting that.

I'm so devastated I don't know if I want to restart a campaign or not.
Anyways what's the best tactic to fight off the Mongol hordes with the Khwarezmids? It seems that this mod is designed to match real life and have this empire wiped out by the Mongols. I honestly don't know how anybody can fight that off without using cheats and being prepared!

I was hoping this mod would react like Invasio Barbarum II where Attila dies and the army disbands...So I sent assassins to kill Genghis Kahn which was succesful - but the armies were still there

[Magicman2051]

I can't help but comment on the fact that what just happened to you, as much as it sucks, is what the Mongols are supposed to do.

I generally let them spend their energy on a few of my weaker armies and pull the rest back to regroup and hold a few cities, ideally try and force as much income out of those as you can, and then just slowly drive them back.

[Badnercalabrese]

I can't help but comment on the fact that what just happened to you, as much as it sucks, is what the Mongols are supposed to do.

I generally let them spend their energy on a few of my weaker armies and pull the rest back to regroup and hold a few cities, ideally try and force as much income out of those as you can, and then just slowly drive them back.

You're right...I was just very bitter, but in the end I'm glad that I was beaten by the AI in a total war game. I knew the mongols were going to wipe out a lot of people - I just assumed somebody else would get it first

@k/t yes I tried but every time I was too outnumbered or not fully prepared unit wise or both. My only success actually occurred in open battle! I took the defeat and began playing with my original campaign as the ERE.

I want to try the Khwarezmids again for 3.0. If anyone has any specific army style for this faction against the Mongols - please share.

thanks again

[k/t]

Fight them in sieges as much as possible.

[Ansar Warrior]

Hello, first I want to say nice mod!
although I'm extremely angry. I was playing a campaign with the Khwarezmid Empire.
I don't even think I can salvage my campaign since my two primary cities just got taken. I even tried using the money cheat as the Mongols came (my ignorance to Middle Eastern history made me unaware that MY LANDS will be first to get pillaged) I was not expecting that.

I'm so devastated I don't know if I want to restart a campaign or not.
Anyways what's the best tactic to fight off the Mongol hordes with the Khwarezmids? It seems that this mod is designed to match real life and have this empire wiped out by the Mongols. I honestly don't know how anybody can fight that off without using cheats and being prepared!

I was hoping this mod would react like Invasio Barbarum II where Attila dies and the army disbands...So I sent assassins to kill Genghis Kahn which was succesful - but the armies were still there

I've played as Kwarezmians and have done fine but I know what you mean its precarious to say the least.

1. You can take your initial start off army and take rebel settlements in Shiraz and southern Persia, that gives you a buffer between your faction and the Mongol invasion (a lot of the Kwarezmian troops are Persian anyway).

2. Bulk up on siege defence on the most threatened targets (settlements closest to the horde) and stack up on spearmen and units which can stifle cavalry, never attack the horde unless they split, divide and conquer sort of thing.

3. Wear them down strategically and if they are going to take your settlement and there is nothing you can do then sell up and recoup some money by trashing your buildings whilst under seige and invest it in safer settlements.

Now you know they are coming you can prepare for the event, stay the hell away from Samarkand lol.

[nein]

you can quickly gain an alliance by trading a region, or if they attack you begin an exodus... pull right back and head far away. Maybe to india or arabia... start over in a foreign land

[YuilenZ01]

Now you know they are coming you can prepare for the event, stay the hell away from Samarkand lol.

Pssh, forget that. Start the game and immediately build your empire, expanding in all directions, and using diplomacy only as a means of extortion. You could even send some armies to far away regions to plunder unguarded cities behind enemy lines, then destroy all the buildings in those cities to get extra money.

Build your army with lots of archers, infantry, and cavalry, especially if you can spam cheap infantry. Prepare early on, from the moment the game starts, for the Mongol invasion. When they show up at Samarkand, greet them with 10 stacks of crappy units, having a few stacks of your best armies behind, and batter them over and over. The easiest way to kill the Mongols is by doing it before they gather themselves together, and before they take any settlements. Also try to kill as much of their siege equipment and cavalry as you can. And their leaders.

[Dago Red]

When they show up at Samarkand, greet them with 10 stacks of crappy units, having a few stacks of your best armies behind, and batter them over and over.

See, that should just not be possible. If it is, the game is broken with respect to recruitment, economy or both. No one should be able to afford 10 stacks just sitting around, plus "a few stacks of your best armies" just chilling out behind them. Do they have robots working the fields and groves and unicorns pulling the plows?

That's what was wrong with the last release, stack spam... with no end in sight. RBBR fixed all of that.

[wudang_clown]

That's what was wrong with the last release, stack spam... with no end in sight. RBBR fixed all of that.

[Ichon]

See, that should just not be possible. If it is, the game is broken with respect to recruitment, economy or both. No one should be able to afford 10 stacks just sitting around, plus "a few stacks of your best armies" just chilling out behind them. Do they have robots working the fields and groves and unicorns pulling the plows?

That's what was wrong with the last release, stack spam... with no end in sight. RBBR fixed all of that.

That is a problem in almost all mods since the costs of units do not scale with the growth of cities and population. Particularly population very rarely declines hugely aside from plagues but then recovers in two dozen turns.

We have trade bonus buildings and more tax etc to have a sense of progress which is nice but the progress is simply going too fast when nearly every single region progresses evenly. In reality only a few regions had 'golden age' at different times whereas in MTW2 the mechanics make it almost like every single city is having nearly uninterrupted golden ages.

The only ways I can see to do this is totally change recruitment etc as RBBR does or make some inflation or war tax scripts. Personally I favor a bit of both but lean more towards war tax script as that allows a player strategic flexibility but that treasury is still a concern even later in the game.

Ideally after some time at war income stagnates as more resources are devoted to fighting and less to trade etc while lower amount of resources drives up the costs of the fewer remaining- inflation occurs.

So could script simultaneous effects- after 20 turns at war, cost go up 50% for everything, after 40 turns, double, simultaneously there is a negative modifier to reflect drain on economy of long wars increasing slowly the longer at war to perhaps some max cap that only the largest economies can bear but with severe strain.

Alternately inflation could be tied to faction size... as MTW2 does not model the difficulties and rising costs of administering a larger area. Less than 10 regions or lowest 5 in faction ranking have no extra costs, more than 10 less than 20 or middle ranked factions pay 25% extra, and so on... with also a second inflation cost based on turn # only to compensate for the rather quick growth of populations/income. The idea being investing in growth buildings should enable you to stay ahead of rising costs with a small margin but fall behind too long and you risk stagnation and cost rising relatively. I like scripts better than redoing entire building costs etc as it is more flexible and can be enabled or not by player choice. The costs of recruitment and buildings are necessarily based on the opening income levels at start of a campaign, due to MTW2 mechanics there is not any easy way to change those as a campaign progresses.

[Bernardius]

why not conquer samarkand?

[Ansar Warrior]

why not conquer samarkand?

Because you'll get no reprive as soon as the Mongols turn up, what the AI tends to do is as soon as they declare war on you and the AI definitely seems to hunt for the player first rather than AI factions they will just keep going at you from city to city.

If you are away from them a bit you can keep an eye on their movement and prepare for the initial assault by bulking up your defence on the nearest settlement to the horde.

I'm playing with the Ghurids and have got a great infrastructure, Ghaznavids have been reduced to two (soon to be one) city and I've got the Ghor mountains (Afghanistan) secluded and militarised like Sparta lol.
But even I still have expanded south rather than go north toward Samarakand, I am ready for the gits though.

Because the Ghurids are great in melee I try to only fight in the Mountains to disable the effectiveness of cavalry and also I have all my cities able to make siege machines (catapults etc) so I can go straight into a captured city and march in for melee immediately.

[Dago Red]

Historically, a large number of the Khwarzemids fled west. They sacked Jerusalem.

[nein]

I thought they ended up in georgia?

[Ichon]

Historically, a large number of the Khwarzemids fled west. They sacked Jerusalem.

Basically majority of the Turkics who did not accept Mongol sovereignty went west to Jerusalem sacking the city and raiding everywhere with alot of destruction and then either submitted to Mameluks, died in battle, or went to Anatolia/Caucuses while the actual Khwarezian elite with some small armies regrouped in Caucuses with the surviving Shah's family and fought Georgia and Mongols until finally dying against Mongols.

[k/t]

Is there anyone who HASN'T sacked Jerusalem? That place is like the village bicycle...

[Captain_Aramsham]

I hate to blow my own trumpet, but...

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=301137

...may be helpful.

[Marvzilla]

The only way the Mongols should show up in Persia is as an Stack-Spam.That´s the only (historical) way.

You could try to fight them of and thin their lines,but as Khwarezm Shah you should possibly migrate to the east to survive.

Taking a city or two early on,to be prepared if you have to fall back.You could also use a scorched earth strategy,basically destroying every building in your frontier cities and leaving them,generating high amounts of rebells the Mongols have to conquer first.

[Ichon]

Scripted sieges where Mongols have siege equipment would move them fairly quicker especially if every few turns a stack would appear further west based roughly on historical timeline but most people would object that they are unable to fight them off before they get to certain cities. Personally I'm tempted to try making them spawn in scripted sieges up to at least Ray in the south and up to Dnieper/Kiev in the north and then let the game play out randomly after that as some sieges might be fought off but Mongols are still likely to have gained a significant territory and have some nice stacks. It would move much quicker and there wouldn't be a stack swarm on the east side of the map but... anyone playing Khwarezmians would be nearly forced west or to hole up in a few key cities and just beat off the scripted siege spawns(at least 2 per city... 3 for the largest cities). My main dislike of the swarm is the very slow rate of conquest. In history Mongols moved west very quickly but aside from defeating most field armies and sacking some cities there were also quite many cities they accepted surrender from or just left alone, many of the "vassal" cities rebelled and Mongols had to make examples during the next 10-20 years.

[Orthanner]

The Khwarezmids CAN fight off the Mongols, but it is really hard. It is necessary to understand that in a field the Khwarezmian army has no chance. What will lead you to success is sieges along with strong economics.
First of all, seize the cities of Samarqand and Balkh as soon as possible. Termez is optional, as well as Astrakhan, - if you can overrun these easily, it's good, otherwise leave them until later, they are not crucial. Try to make an alliance with the Ghurids and train the imams! you will need them when the Mongols come.
Merv must be the first settlement you will take. Build it up into an economical capital of your empire.
Remember, the Khwarezmids benefit from both cities and castles. Daylamites and Askaris are deadly, while the Sughdians are next to invincible. While Khwarezm has excellent (almost unmatched) heavy cavalry, it will be your heavy infantry that will hold your domain. Understand that.
Having united the native Khwarezmian lands, you must immediately secure the south-western borders from the Seljuks of Iraq. Crush them as quickly as you can, taking Rayy and Hamadan, as well as Isfahan. After that, you should have enough money to withstand the Mongols.
Keep strong enough garrisons in Bukhara and Gurganj. Beware, if you place too numerous garrisons there, the Mongols will just pass these castles seeking easier targets. I suggest having 4 to 6 units of the Sughdian assault infantry and 3 to 4 units of heavy cavalry. Archers are useful. Utilize cavalry to chase down catapults and rams, but let the siege towers reach your walls!!! Damn, I cannot stress it enough: your only way to survival is through letting the Mongolian infantry get on your walls. Well the Sughdians will have to face these towers, so that the Mongols will go into battle without having time to accumulate any significant forces on the wall; they will march - and they will die! Beware: if you destroy or stop the siege towers before they reach your walls, the Mongols will use rams to destroy your gate - and at this moment you will be crushed. While beating the precious Mongolian infantry on the walls is relatively easy. Just don't let them capture the gate.
However, do not expect your garrisons to live forever: after all, they will be drained and therefore defeated. Do not miss this moment and destroy everything that is possible!
The first city taken by the Mongols will be just sacked. Their true target will be either Bukhara or Gurganj, depending on the fact of seizing Samarqand. You have to ensure the horde has finally found a new homeland. Do you remember I mentioned imams? It's time to call the Jihad! Yes the Mongols are still strong (and they will receive additional forces for each city they seize), but destroying their empire when it has not yet been established is possible - and will bring them death. Besides, the Jihad forces have zero upkeep, so you can spam elites a bit.