Somalia: A military takeover slipped silently through the news

[Mangalore]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/internatio...794391,00.html

It was a rout. After months of fighting that left hundreds dead Mogadishu fell suddenly this week: pick-up trucks with mounted machine-guns and young warriors scrambled to leave the city.

The victors broadcast a triumphant announcement that the warlords had been ousted. In their place a relatively disciplined militia promised order and security after 15 years of mayhem. At a victory rally a militia leader, Sheikh Sharif Ahmed, made another promise: to create an Islamic state.

Mogadishu is now largely ruled by the Islamic Courts Union, a powerful movement that advocates a strict version of sharia law, including public executions, and has alleged ties to al-Qaida terrorists. The Horn of Africa, say some analysts, has just acquired its own Taliban.

... (rest of the article can be read via link)

That can't be good, I thought a NATO mission was controlling the waters in the vincity of the Horn of Africa because of pirate and terrorist activity and now somehow a radical Islamic movement has established itself as the new regime? Somehow that can't be what the west wants: Another hideout for terrorists.

[purple elf]

yes this has been kept very quiet a tad embarassing after killing the figure head Zarqawi who was a bad person but still from the sound of this its another Afghanistan i wonder if the US will do something, i doubt it highly as i dont think theres any benefits for them oil and other resources that is so yeah 15 years of war over now some years of mindless torture and murder in the name of religion..

[MoROmeTe]

The story I get out of the BBC is slightly but importantly different...

One: The Islamic Courts are an organization set up by local businessman to provide a modicum of justice and safety under the banner of Islam... Sort of like a "security agency" in the words of Nozick.

Two: They conquered Mogadishu because they have been constantly provoked and harassed by the warlords, some of them with seats in the government. The warlords even occupied and evacuated a clearly marked Red Cross sponsored hospital...

Three: Their leader, Sheik Sharif Ahmed, has declared he does not seek a strict Islmist state but rather negociations with the government...

[Red Harvest]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/internatio...794391,00.html

That can't be good, I thought a NATO mission was controlling the waters in the vincity of the Horn of Africa because of pirate and terrorist activity and now somehow a radical Islamic movement has established itself as the new regime? Somehow that can't be what the west wants: Another hideout for terrorists.

It didn't slip silently through the news, rather some people just didn't notice it. Or perhaps the readers/viewers didn't know what to make of it?

For weeks I've heard reports that Bush was backing the warlords and the State Dept. refused to comment. There were folks in govt. anonymously commenting how foolish it was to back warlords (I agree) because it would only be likely to produce support for radical hardline elements.

The statement of "radical" Islamic is not correct from what I've gathered. None of the commentators who seemed to know anything about Somalia agreed with the characterization.

While my personal gut reaction was negative at first, what I've actually heard of this suggests that this is not the Taliban reincarnated. The *circumstances* of the Somali group's rise to power is similar, and not surprising. If the world can figure out how to encourage a moderate/tolerant stance rather than ending up with Taliban like organization, then it could settle things in Somalia.

[Mangalore]

It didn't slip silently through the news, rather some people just didn't notice it. Or perhaps the readers/viewers didn't know what to make of it?
...

I only know that the German newspapers did not have it in their headlines and about the trouble about Somalia I only remember a rather short report about fights in Mogadishu without any reference to who is actually fighting who and why.

That BBC categorizes the news differently is interesting, hopefully this group is rather a stabilizing force than yet another faction in the ongoing powerstruglle in Somalia, that country is being torn apart for long enough now.

well, there is a military task force, but its not NATO... Coallition Task Force 150 (CTF-150) currently consists of ships from the US, Dutch, German, Pakistani and Royal Navies, is flagged by a dutch rear-admiral, in the process of handing over to a pakistani admiral... its conducting maritime security operations around the horn, and in the indian ocean, at the request of the UN, and the IMO

Mainly meant that it is strange that a country can yet again fall into complete chaos and none notices despite a major presence of western military forces in the area who should be actually very aware of it.

[Gaius Baltar]

Is the prescence of Islamic organizations new to this area?

[danzig]

Is the prescence of Islamic organizations new to this area?

No its not new, it was one of the elements the US was dealing with when Clinton decided to walk away after Mogadishu. I doubt their control will last long http://today.reuters.co.uk/news/news...archived=False

"Islamist militiamen shot in the air to disperse hundreds of Somalis protesting early on Saturday against moves by sharia courts to stop them watching the World Cup in the capital Mogadishu, residents said."

Football > Allah or any god!

[the Black Prince]

I thought a NATO mission was controlling the waters in the vincity of the Horn of Africa because of pirate and terrorist activity

well, there is a military task force, but its not NATO... Coallition Task Force 150 (CTF-150) currently consists of ships from the US, Dutch, German, Pakistani and Royal Navies, is flagged by a dutch rear-admiral, in the process of handing over to a pakistani admiral... its conducting maritime security operations around the horn, and in the indian ocean, at the request of the UN, and the IMO


as for Somalia, whatever group claims to be control, they're control is hardly over the whole country, so its still very much a case of waiting to see who comes out on top

[the Black Prince]

the task force does not, and legally cannot operate in somali waters... and their area of operations stretches from pakistan to yemen to somalia... its one of the biggest operational theatres to be controled by a single deployed task force, whose duties range from anti smuggling off the gulf of iran to anti piracy off africa.
they can't operate in somali waters without permission from the somali government, which is non existant - said Commodore Hank Ort, from the HNLMS De Zeven Provincien - flagship CTF-150 in a statement after a Korean Fishing Vessel was abducted by pirates and vanished into somali waters whilst the flagship and the USS Roosevelt looked on, unable to help. the dutch commodore, since replaced by a Pakistani officer, was speaking to Naval Correspondant Guy Torremans
"Entry into territorial waters always requires permission from the coastal state, but in Somalia there is no recognised authority to grant it"

[RusskiSoldat]

This state is great for the people of Somalia.
I'm sure not eating from sunrise to sundown on Ramadan is a small price to pay for people who don't eat very much or very often anyway.
For Somalia, this is undoubtedly good.
For the west, it is most likely another state that poses a problem.

What I said on another forum.
This is obviously good news for the Somalian people, for the Islamic state will undoubtedly set up social services and bring stability to Somalia.

[the Black Prince]

well, so far its only great for the people of the capitol...

it will only be great for the people of somalia if it pushes its control into the countryside, and also if it allies itself politically with the current government, or whats left of it...
its said its just interested in enforcing law and order... sharia law as it happens, and thats all well and good, but its position and status has inevitably made it political, and if it doesn't work with the government, they will be forced to take action against it...
either way, before somalia is peaceful to all somali's there's a long way to go... order only exists in one city so far....

[Erik]

It didn't slip trough the Dutch news, it has been on the TV news several times.

I think it's too early to tell how this Islamic group wil turn out, but it hardly can get any worst than the past situation (I hope).
If they succeed in also conquering the rest of Somalia maybe they can bring some kind of stability to that country.

Of course they COULD also turn into a terrorist state, but for now I think we should give them the benefit of the doubt.

[Sidus Preclarum]

It didn't slip trough the Dutch news, it has been on the TV news several times.

here too, at least one the deed was done.
Nothing has been said the past month, that would lead us to think this would happen...

[Last Roman]

It didn't slip trough the Dutch news, it has been on the TV news several times.

well, we all know how good the US media is

[Red Harvest]

well, we all know how good the US media is

Yes, I've been hearing reports about this pending in various US media for weeks as best I can remember.

(Brushing up on it did remind me of something I had forgotten: Bush Sr. is the one that put our troops in Mogadishu. It was sort of a spoiler lame duck gift to Clinton.)

[Last Roman]

Yes, I've been hearing reports about this pending in various US media for weeks as best I can remember.

actually, today was the first time I've heard about it. Though, it's also the first time I've watched the news in a month

[Red Harvest]

actually, today was the first time I've heard about it. Though, it's also the first time I've watched the news in a month

Well there you go. :original: There were reports about the Bush behind the scenes support of the warlords vs. the Islamic Courts Union some days or weeks before this, I imagine most of the wire services were reporting it at the same time.

[RusskiSoldat]

I think it's too early to tell how this Islamic group wil turn out, but it hardly can get any worst than the past situation (I hope).
If they succeed in also conquering the rest of Somalia maybe they can bring some kind of stability to that country.

Of course they COULD also turn into a terrorist state, but for now I think we should give them the benefit of the doubt.

The two aren't mutualy exclusive.

[Last Roman]

That can't be good, I thought a NATO mission was controlling the waters in the vincity of the Horn of Africa because of pirate and terrorist activity and now somehow a radical Islamic movement has established itself as the new regime? Somehow that can't be what the west wants: Another hideout for terrorists.

the way Africa works, it will be toppled in a couple of years

[Blaven]

How much of the control is controlled by the Islamists and how much is controlled by warlords? I don't think they'll last too long. The warlords aren't stupid, if the Islamists get too much power, than I would think that at least some warlords would get to together and try to take them down.