Line Infantry

[Taira]

What sort of line do people find effective? The massive variety of infantry makes it kind of hard to pick an army. At the moment I mostly use White Bears.

[Knowing Crow]

Red -> White -> Black Bears are each of a series of Line Infantry that trade 1 Melee Attack and 1 Melee defense for 5 Accuracy and 5 Reload. For a trade of 2 melee attack and 2 melee defense, Black bears have +10 reload and +10 accuracy over Red Bears, making them the strongest in terms ranged capabilities of the three line infantry. Black Bears cost 50 Koku more than White bears however, but 1 vet rank in accuracy for the White Bear puts them on equal costs with the Black Bear having 5 more reload; this means that the White Bear is strictly inferior to the Black Bear in terms of cost when you put veterency into the equation, and you assume that Guns are King and you don't mind melee stats (-1 melee attack and defense is pretty minor anyway). This is because the White bear with enough veterency to equal the cost of the Black Bear leaves you with still an inferior unit, hence it is better to use the Black Bear over the White Bear, even with the cost.

That said, I use Imperial Line Infantry over Black Bears. I put quite a bit of though into it and determined the Imperials to be worth it. First of all, they have the best hats of any line infantry, and the wings of the Bear infantry are quite silly they have 10 reload more than the Black Bear but 5 accuracy less, given that Reload vet points are 10 reload and Accuracy vet points are 5 Accuracy, we can think of this as trading one vet point of Accuracy for 1 vet point of reload. They also have +5 Ammunition, and all of this for +110 koku in cost (960 versus 850).

The reason for choosing the Imperial Line over the Black Bears is that I plan to fully level several of these guys to use as a core for my army, and at a high level of Reload means that they will run out of ammunition faster. While running out of ammunition at early levels is rare, a 100+ Reload skill unit suppressive firing on an army will run out rather quickly, hence I feel that the +5 Ammunition is worth it in the long run. Ultimately it's a trade between 65 Accuracy and 70 Reload (BBears) and 60 Accuracy and 80 Reload (ILine).

Honestly, it's the hats.

Otherwise Black Bears are a solid choice.

Note: Shogunate Line are statistically identical to Imperial Line.

[Grundhelm]

Black Bears are still too cost effective, this has been the case since beta, just spam them with the US marines at vet 5 with a range increase and you wont go wrong. The Imperial and Shogunate infantry still need a 50 koku reduction imo, but hey its not to bad at the moment. Just my 2 cents. Adding to above 1 level of vet on Black Bears and they have the same reload for 60 koku less, go figure.

[Knowing Crow]

Would you consider Bonus Range (Which I believe requires Vet 9 with 8 distributed skills) superior to Kneel Fire?

[Grundhelm]

Yes, but tbh the vanilla versions of the line are better than any vets, the cost increase just doesn't return its value. With the 8 distributed skills alot of them are wasted because it actually has to be 8 'different' skills (it was like this in the beta) but increased range is better becuase anything other than Ultra setting for unit size means you can just stretch the guys out so most can shoot anyway making kneel fire redundant. Hope this helps.

[Cawyn]

Here's something most people don't know about Imperial & Shogunate line infantry: they use a different rifle than the bear infantry. From what I've seen in the game files, they use breech loading rifles in contrast to standard muzzle loaders (even though they use the muzzle loader animation), which gives them a faster base reload time. That means, given equal reloading skill, the Imperial and Shogunate infantry will reload and fire faster than any bear infantry. I've done some basic in-game tests and this seems to be correct. If anyone wants to confirm this, go ahead.

This would certainly justify the price difference to black bears.

[Taira]

Here's something most people don't know about Imperial & Shogunate line infantry: they use a different rifle than the bear infantry. From what I've seen in the game files, they use breech loading rifles in contrast to standard muzzle loaders (even though they use the muzzle loader animation), which gives them a faster base reload time. That means, given equal reloading skill, the Imperial and Shogunate infantry will reload and fire faster than any bear infantry. I've done some basic in-game tests and this seems to be correct. If anyone wants to confirm this, go ahead.

This would certainly justify the price difference to black bears.

you didn't need to test it lol. it says they have a better reload in their statistics.

[Cawyn]

you didn't need to test it lol. it says they have a better reload in their statistics.

Read that post again.

Given equal reloading skill, the Imperial infantry should fire faster (and according to my tests, it does).

[Taira]

Read that post again.

Given equal reloading skill, the Imperial infantry should fire faster (and according to my tests, it does).

Ahh, ok, thank you for pointing that out.

[Jedi]

Read that post again.

Given equal reloading skill, the Imperial infantry should fire faster (and according to my tests, it does).

+1

Now its not just about the silly bear hats.I can have the pretty imperial hats AND faster reloading

Imperial line with 2 in reload i think i will use probably 4-5 with 2 in reload for 5300 koku in my main line with a marine or two.

Which i have a question on also.Infantrie de marine and the US marines with increased range on both yea? But would you take 2 reload 1 accuracy and 1 in supressive fire or take the second in accuracy? They already have high accuracy being marines.

Is it going to make you actually worse off when against the exact same unit who put a second point in a static +5 accuracy?

I was going to take one of em or perhaps both as flank units to skirmish if needed with the range.

[Gen. Sherman]

Yes, but tbh the vanilla versions of the line are better than any vets, the cost increase just doesn't return its value. With the 8 distributed skills alot of them are wasted because it actually has to be 8 'different' skills (it was like this in the beta) but increased range is better becuase anything other than Ultra setting for unit size means you can just stretch the guys out so most can shoot anyway making kneel fire redundant. Hope this helps.

This is something I have been wondering about in the process of vetting up my infantry. So is it confirmed that way in current FotS? The part that you need to have 8 separate skills distributed and not just 8 points spent into skills? If this is true, does anyone know if this is the case for all units? I have some marines with 5 points ready to spend, but wasn't sure if I should go for it yet. This fact would obviously make a big difference in how I spend the points in all vets.

[Mosc]

Vermillion Bird Force are a favorite of mine. They're all around good units and they inspire near by units. Allowing other linemen to fight that much longer. They're a lot cheaper to get then elite linemen.

I also prefer to get Azure Dragon force over red bears. I rather save the money over the small melee stats gained from red bears. Plus, you also get to sport the cone hats with Azure dragon force.

[BobTheShogun]

I just got Black Tortoise linemen - are they decent?

[vonPauluS]

I just got Black Tortoise linemen - are they decent?

Yes,they r the best line infantry in this game for sure!

[Nationalist_Cause]

Yes,they r the best line infantry in this game for sure!

Disregarding whether or not that comment was sarcastic, Black Tortoise are decent enough for when you get them, which ought to be in your 5k battle stage. I still use them for filler and fodder when necessary. You could certainly do worse.

[dmcheatw]

cawyn is correct. it's been that way since empire (just look at ferguson rifles and grenzers for instance). looking at the skill of a unit at shooing, relaodinf, accuracy, etc is very misleading.

[SuicideNooch]

Heh my buddy already messed up some of his Marines because he assumed the 4 points to get the initial range increase needed to be vested in separate skills. We really need a way to reset veteran skills for units like these. As far as blackbears and other line infantry I believe they need to still be spent in 8 different abilities which pretty much renders them useless.

[Knowing Crow]

Heh my buddy already messed up some of his Marines because he assumed the 4 points to get the initial range increase needed to be vested in separate skills. We really need a way to reset veteran skills for units like these. As far as blackbears and other line infantry I believe they need to still be spent in 8 different abilities which pretty much renders them useless.

A Veteran reset button would be very nice, but we've been wanting one for a while now and I don't see any in sight. So a work-around would be to start a new avatar.

+1

Now its not just about the silly bear hats.I can have the pretty imperial hats AND faster reloading

Imperial line with 2 in reload i think i will use probably 4-5 with 2 in reload for 5300 koku in my main line with a marine or two.

Which i have a question on also.Infantrie de marine and the US marines with increased range on both yea? But would you take 2 reload 1 accuracy and 1 in supressive fire or take the second in accuracy? They already have high accuracy being marines.

Is it going to make you actually worse off when against the exact same unit who put a second point in a static +5 accuracy?

I was going to take one of em or perhaps both as flank units to skirmish if needed with the range.

I personally took the Supressive Fire, and some battles I feel as if it wasn't a good expenditure while other battles I think "Golly it's a good thing I have Supressive Fire". Looking at the packfiles the hit from Supressive Fire to the troop using it is +20 Reload, -20 Accuracy, and the damage dealt is -4 Morale, and -0.5 Speed (Infantry normally have a speed of about 4, cavalry a speed of 10, and Yari Cav a speed of 12, to compare). It's not useful every game, but I still feel that it's a good thing to have on a few troops, and Elite Infantry seem to be a good choice for those units who have them.

I honestly don't know if it's good to Suppressive Fire in an exchange of Line versus line fire. I've only ever used it against charging units, except in cases where I am overpowering my opponent with numerous overlapping fields of fire and throwing on a -4 morale debuff seems nice.

The lack of +5 Accuracy will only be a problem if you come across the same unit who has it, and you each exchange fire at the same time. So no, I don't think it will be a big deal. They already have plenty of accuracy anyway.

[Jedi]

A Veteran reset button would be very nice, but we've been wanting one for a while now and I don't see any in sight. So a work-around would be to start a new avatar.


I personally took the Supressive Fire, and some battles I feel as if it wasn't a good expenditure while other battles I think "Golly it's a good thing I have Supressive Fire". Looking at the packfiles the hit from Supressive Fire to the troop using it is +20 Reload, -20 Accuracy, and the damage dealt is -4 Morale, and -0.5 Speed (Infantry normally have a speed of about 4, cavalry a speed of 10, and Yari Cav a speed of 12, to compare). It's not useful every game, but I still feel that it's a good thing to have on a few troops, and Elite Infantry seem to be a good choice for those units who have them.

I honestly don't know if it's good to Suppressive Fire in an exchange of Line versus line fire. I've only ever used it against charging units, except in cases where I am overpowering my opponent with numerous overlapping fields of fire and throwing on a -4 morale debuff seems nice.

The lack of +5 Accuracy will only be a problem if you come across the same unit who has it, and you each exchange fire at the same time. So no, I don't think it will be a big deal. They already have plenty of accuracy anyway.

Yea thats the only time i got worried was if i meet marine v marine with the same 5 upgrades which will not be uncommon as with 150 range they are going to be on the flank and im going to match him on whatever flank his marines are on.I think i will take 2 reload 1 supressive and 1 accuracy on the marines and 1 increased range then.Sup fire on that unit can be useful as i could perhaps even out the 5 accuracy by using the morale hit on them and causing them to flee quicker than myself as i would not have sup fire on me if they dont have it? I duno i guess i will gamble on this one and have some fun with it.

Its very confusing though and nooch's buddy has ruined his marines due to it not being overly clear and a lot of forum typo's etc.Q&A i think has been really poor imo in this expansion.Still no vet resets and still no ladder resets.There needs to be a huge patch in the next month or so sorting this mess out.

I feel sad for your buddy nooch :'(

Oh and i forgot to ask so i will edit this in.Would you take sup fire on 4-5 imperial line inf with 2 reload? or should i just leave it alone at 2 reload? Its only about 250koku i think i have that spare if it really is -4 morale thats pretty huge to drop on black bears etc after a volley or two.

[Gen. Sherman]

I've never regretted getting supressive fire on any of my units. 50 Koku extra for an ability that has a pretty fast cool down, drops morale on command, and sends a hail of bullets to the enemy... Yeah I think it's worth it.