War Dogs!

[PROMETHEUS ts]

Post here any references on wardogs use you may find please ....

So far I am convinced of giving them to three factions , Britons , Greeks and Indians , ...

In corroboration of this singular, but not less fabulous belief, Pliny states that the inhabitants of India take pleasure in having dog *****es lined by the wild tigers, and to facilitate this union, they are in the habit of tieing them when in heat out in the woods, so that the male tigers may visit them. (See L. 8, c. xl.)

Oppian thus describes the hunting dog as he finds him in Britain: "There is, besides, an excellent kind of scenting dogs, though small, yet worthy of estimation. They are fed by the fierce nation of painted Britons, who call them agasœi. In size they resemble worthless greedy house-dogs that gape under tables. They are crooked, lean, coarse-haired, and heavy-eyed, but armed with powerful claws and deadly teeth. The agasoeus is of good nose and most excellent in following scent"

[Slaxx Hatmen]

Sounds good to me aslong as there arent too many of them per unit, and there expensive so the AI wont go overboard with them.

[PROMETHEUS ts]

I would like to get some more robust references first tough ....

[cunctator]

Plinus, Historia Naturalis 8.142-144 (8.61):

142 Ex his quoque animalibus, quae nobiscum degunt, multa sunt cognitu digna, fidelissimumque ante omnia homini canis atque equus. pugnasse adversus latrones canem pro domino accepimus confectumque plagis a corpore non recessisse, volucres ac feras abigentem. ab alio in Epiro agnitum in conventu percussorem domini laniatuque et latratu coactum fateri scelus. Garamantum regem canes CC ab exilio reduxere proeliati contra resistentes. propter bella Colophonii itemque Castabalenses cohortes canum habuere.

143 hae primae dimicabant in acie numquam detrectantes; haec erant fidissima auxilia nec stipendiorum indiga. canes defendere Cimbris caesis domus eorum plaustris inpositas. canis Iasone Lycio interfecto cibum capere noluit inediaque consumptus est. is vero, cui nomen Hyrcani reddit Duris, accenso regis Lysimachi rogo iniecit se flammae, similiterque Hieronis regis.

144 memorat et Pyrrhum, Gelonis tyranni canem, Philistus; memoratur et Nicomedis Bithyniae regis, uxore eius Cosingi lacerata propter lasciviorem cum marito iocum. apud nos Vulcatium nobilem, qui Cascellium ius civile docuit, asturcone e suburbano redeuntem, cum advesperavisset, canis a grassatore defendit; item Caelium senatorem aegrum Placentiae ab armatis oppressum, nec prius ille vulneratus est quam cane interempto.



Among the animals, also, that are domesticated with mankind, there are many circumstances that are far from undeserving of being known: among these, there are more particularly that most faithful friend of man, the dog, and the horse. We have an account of a dog that fought against a band of robbers, in defending its master; and although it was pierced with wounds, still it would not leave the body, from which it drove away all birds and beasts. Another dog, again, in Epirus, recognized the murderer of its master, in the midst of an assemblage of people, and, by biting and barking at him, extorted from him a confession of his crime. A king of the Garamantes also was brought back from exile by two hundred dogs, which maintained the combat against all his opponents. The people of Colophon and Castabala kept troops of dogs (cohorts and latin text), for the purposes of war; and these used to fight in the front rank, and never retreat; they were the most faithful of auxiliaries, and yet required no pay. After the defeat of the Cimbri, their dogs defended their moveable houses, which were carried upon waggons. Jason, the Lycian, having been slain, his dog refused to take food, and died of famine. A dog, to which Darius gives the name of Hyrcanus, upon the funeral pile of King Lysimachus being lighted, threw itself into the flames,3 and the dog of King Hiero did the same. Philistus also gives a similar account of Pyrrhus, the dog of the tyrant Gelon: and it is said, also, that the dog of Nicomedes, king of Bithynia, tore Consingis,4 the wife of that king, in consequence of her wanton behaviour, when toying with her husband.

[PROMETHEUS ts]

So also Numidians would get them ?

[cunctator]

The Garamantes, lybian people, had their kingdom in modern Fezzan/southern lybia. Cornelius Balbus campaigned against them 21/20 BC, and later they supported the numidian rebell Tacfarinas in 24 AD, but excused for this in Roma after he was defeated. After a last clash with roman forces 70 AD when they supported Oea in an inner tripolitanian conflict with Leptis magna, relations between the garamantes and the romans stayed peaceful and roman cultural and economic influence strongly increased.

The ancient Phazania/fezzan is still on the vanilla map but has no own province. I would use their wardogs only as rebel, or perhaps merc unit, if there is unit space for them. They would make this region more interesting.

Colophon and Castabala are in asia minor.

[Shaggy1973]

I think when you come down to historical accuracy, all the units that CA put into RTW were accurate. It just depends on how much those troops were used. It is very much like the arcani, they existed, but were they regular line troops? Perhaps some special units could be available very occassionaly through scripts, but not available to recruit. Then you would see they very rarely, and they would provide some much needed variety, but would not be regular troops.

[Sparton Matticus]

Hmmm i really do hope war dogs aren't included. I just dont get why CA would ever use them in the first place?

[Godfrey von Bereau]

I think, that they can bring a lot of fun to the battles, for the case that they are historical.

[Sparton Matticus]

Well i dont know about you, but for me when i play various rome total war mods, i look foward to the difference variations of units like phallanx's Vs roman units or cathaginian units.. I aways expect to use soilders of the human variety.

I dont think war dogs add any real substance to the original vanila or any other mods. I think they are just an annoyance. So I will be asking how to take them out of the game

If they are included..

[Legione]

They should be deadlt to un-armored foes, historically they were used, even by the Romans. The Roman Legion used them to herd cattle (their food supply) on their long trips and occasionally used them in battle too. These were Rottweiller dogs but were actually larger than the modern Rotweiller.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rottweiler

http://www.colossalrottweilers.com/romanrottweiler.html

[W.I.N.T.E.R]

[CLICK] from Völker und Hund (German: "Peoples and Dog") (quick babelfish translation)

German Kriegshunde (War Dogs) and Celtic/Breton Wolf Hounds
"Beside the Germanic trackhounds, which, then assumed, also to seeking out people tracks, act many excessive quantities were successfully used also of war dogs. From the Teutons we know that large, great dane-like dogs accompanied and particularly with the defense of the car castles out-did them on their war courses. As e.g. the Kimbern (Latin Cimbri; Germanic trunk in northwest Jutland) in the year 108 v. Chr. by the Romans, the Romans still had another hard fight with the kimbri war dogs. These defended the camp also still, when their master lay defeated in the pass. Skull finds of large dogs let assume that there were at the same time also dane-type dogs in central Russia, Poland and Central Germany. The evaluation of 23 skeleton finds of such dogs in rider graves of the Mittelelbe Saale area resulted in that it concerned 2 to 3 years old males with a shoulder height between 62 and 68 cm. The assumption lies near that to the war service above all strong male dogs at the good, efficient age was selected. It is to be assumed that this late so famous dogs become in completely Europe descendants from the Celts also to England and Ireland imported dog, which was crossed in their new homeland with the Irish wolf dog"
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Roman War- and Battle dogs
"The Romans collected everywhere in Europe the most agressive dogs together, because in that Antique ones were animal fights leisure pleasures and demonstration of power. The most different animal species were rushed one on the other to the people amusing. But the dogs had to be courageously, attack merry and strong. A dog type did thereby particularly stand out: the muscular Molosser. It received its name from Molossis... Molosser Shepherd dogs of the most diverse flapping directions and crossings were original. Long time were considered they as the strongest fighters of the Imperiums. When Caesar came in the year 55 before Christ with its troops to England, here still stronger dogs met them: the ancestors of the Mastiffs."
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Battle dogs of Macedonia, Mycenas and Creta
"Aristoteles (384 - 322 v. Chr.) praises the Molosser: "in Molossis (see also Rome) a dog race, which serves as protector of herds, draws by its size and unrestrained courage against wild animals before all other dogs ". The Molosser addressed here by Aristoteles was probably nothing different one than the original Mastiffs specified with the Mesopotamians already. By that this type of dog became spread ever more strongly with trade, Wars and Conquests over all countries of the Mediterranean. The descent of today's Molosser may not be brought probably with these dogs in connection. Only the Romans bred systematically and brought large dane dogs of the British islands also to Rome and crossed them with the native races. The old Molossis, of that the name of the race, the Molosser is probably derived is a part of the Epirus and is located at the northern west coast of Greece. There Molossis a place of pilgrimage was has itself at that time the dogs, spreading fast in the whole country."
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War dogs of Egypt
"Which dog race was not used by the Egyptians? On the representation left it seems to concern most Mastiffs, these dogs originates itself from the assyrischen and/or Babylonian area and from there probably was imported.Combat dogs applied at that time as war material, were acted and were probably subject to war espionage. Nevertheless a combat dog unit on open field battle did not represent an advantage which can be underestimated. At present an army consisted the old person and middle one of realm of "recruited" soldiers (among other things craftsmen and farmers) with more easily armament (clubs, controversy axes and dolche) and a sign from wood. Which destruction can arrange large dogs among this civil soldiers, everyone can introduce itself. Only with the reign of the kings of Hyksos (approximately starting from 1650 v.Chr.) regular army with chariot and better armament was introduced."
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India


"Approx.. 1000 v. Chr. emerged in antiquity "Indian dogs" (Tibetan dogge), here concern it probably usually half-breeds out of the original Tibetians and the domestic large dog impacts out of the front the Orient. These dogs were considered as particularly wild and dangerous to hardly restrain in rage with pronounced suitability to the employment as war dogs. Around 500 v. Chr. optimized by Assyrians, Sumererians and Persians the "tibetan dogge" to a weapon, by crossing the animals with aggressive, native dogs. Holding and breeding of these dogs might have been very expensive. Thus a chronicler reports that the dogs of the Persian king the taxes of four cities cost. From this developed the Molosser, which was bred on a large scale in the old Molossis in proper dog farms."
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Mesopotamia/Persia/Assyria
"The first real combat dogs - Somewhat however insignificantly later than the wind and hunting dogs, some very large, strong dogs with hanging ears emerge in Mesopotamia. These Mastiff type were used as guard and combat dogs. An exception was the hunt for lion and wild pig, which did not serve any more the food acquisition, specified above, but the pleasure of the priviledged. This use of the dogs culminated in the arenas where such dogs for maintenance against bear, lion and donkeys had to fight. The original Mastiff might have been purposeful first at strength and combat readiness bred dog * Today living races of this Mastiffs did not assume descend are obvious. The Mastiff and the Molosser of today's days decrease/go back on breeding the Romans, as we will still see. "* (as above)


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[Dayve]

They just make the game more realistic. There are like 3 references to the use of wardogs in the whole of the ancient era... The AI would recruit 2 or 3 units per army though, so i would leave them out.

[Legione]

They just make the game more realistic. There are like 3 references to the use of wardogs in the whole of the ancient era... The AI would recruit 2 or 3 units per army though, so i would leave them out.

unfortunately, I'd have to agree there that's the problem :hmmm:

[The Mongol]

Bit of a bump here.

If they're only mentioned a few times in history and you're going for a historical mod just leave them out, BUT, an even better way would be to make a pack when the mod is complete or something that includes dogs, pigs, arcani etc

I like to use wardogs even though they weren't used a whole lot. Alot of people would like the Arcani by the looks of the old thread even though they were outvoted. But when it comes down to it, you're working on a historically accurate mod so do those units first.

Unless ofcourse this post is completely unnecessary because you're already adding those units. If that's the case, well then, I don't know what to say other than I haven't read enough about Res Gestae.

[♔ST0MPA♔]

its a pity that they couldnt be added as a bodygaurd unit

the dogs that is.

[The Mongol]

Theres an idea, haha, I can imagine a commander galloping along with his dog companion running next to him. I wonder if that's even possible to code... probably not :p

[♔ST0MPA♔]

even if it was just one or two types of factions, say dacia or germans, you couyld have the general on foot even, but i guess a barb general on horse back with a pack of hounds would be uniqe and different, wich would blend in nicely with this mod, it has so many uniqe features too.