Roman Reforms, the 'one that got away'

[gaius valerius]

Nothing problematic really, love the mod, but one tiny little thing bugs me a little. So as we all know the Roman Reforms happen with Akragas becoming max size settlement, etc etc, triggering it all. Great, I start building new barracks and *poof* new Roman armies. Great, I expand further, more Roman barracks and *poof* new Roman armies. Fan-tas-tic.

But something is off. Have you noticed the tier troops that fill in the gap between the Polybian units and the Roman Legions (the fancy ones)? Those evocatii (which you retain) and those new cohorts, they become obsolete in like 4-6 turns.

Isn't there anybody else who thinks this is a missed opportunity to add some more roleplaying to the game? To have 3 instead of 2 reforms, signifying the transition from Polybian to Marian to Imperial legions. I mean we have the middle section, but you immediately build the next barracks and progress to the top tier troops. Personally I'd have liked to play with these guys longer. Now yes of course, all it takes is a little discipline and simply not build the next barracks ...

... but other then that has the team no plans to tweak this in the future or are we stuck with personal discipline?

[ur-Lord Tedric]

I've been play-testing a Roma 1-turn and raised a query on the 'speed of getting to the reforms' myself, so would like to ask......

Firstly - having been testing for 5 weeks now and gotten some 75 years in (quite probably approaching 150 hours of testing, at least) - how on earth have you got to the reforms in a day???!!!

What I will say is that it is a balance. I deliberately held Akragas back (no population improvements and VH taxes) as long as possible, but did build the City upgrade when it was due. So, the reforms came up in 65 years, but I had 5 x Campus Martii all built and did, as you intimate, build the Roman Fortress straight away and thus move straight to the numbered legions. And I thought this fast'ish and wondered if Akragas should be held back more - given that the historical reforms would occur in about 648AUC/105BC (so I was nealry 50 years early).

Someone could, however, upgrade Akragas very fast, even disband troops there. That would mean that you would have the reforms very early, but probably be limited to the Late Republican/post-Marian legions for much longer (and they are much more manageable, if not realistic for almost our entire period).

In short - it is really down to the play-style desired - the mod allows all of them really. Concentrate on your economy buildings and don't upgrade your barracks as quickly and it will probably be more as you desire.

I will note that moving straight to numbered legions as I did makes for a challenging management situation and has resulted in less money around than I would like - so I may re-think that style myself!

[dvk901]

Well, I could change this, but either way, you're stuck with 'personal discipline'. If the 'Marian' Legions were to continue being recruitable, the player would have a unit that they would then have to stop recruiting if the other Legions became available. In fact, they would be recruitable everywhere, almost, at the 'Field of Mars' barracks level. I just don't think it would be much of a challenge to try and duplicate Rome's use of the 28 Legions and the Auxilia if a 'Roman Legionary' unit was available all of the time. And there's just no way to 'stop' a unit from being recruitable if it's in a building.

But I know what you mean....the transition is poor at best, and I've wracked my brain trying to figure out a better way, given RTW's crappy recruitment system.

[rory o'kane]

Personally, I think the "generic" post-marian legionnaires should still be available when the first round of named and numbered legions become available (so, Roman Fortress?), but then disappear completely when the Curia Hostilia (representing Augustus' reforms) is built, as at this point, you haven't got the 28 legions yet. Most of the local units stay available between the two buildings, so there's no change there, just that the Roman Fortress should add the early named and numbered legions to the roster available under the Campus Martius, and then when you build the Curia Hostilia, there's the sweeping change of Augustus' reforms that removes everything but the named and numbered legions (or at least, moves them around), and introduces the segmentata legions, and replaces the local units with regularised Auxilia.
What do you think, DVK?
This would simulate the Roman army of the very late republic - from the time of Caesar and Pompey to after the Battle of Actium - as 60 legions (including some legions which were named or would go on to be named, but most were just numbered as they were recruited) were extant at the end of the Republic, and Augustus disbanded and merged them down to a much more manageable 28 named and numbered legions.

Also, the Evocati are retired veterans recalled to the standards - they're good, but not the best combat troops available, because, well, they weren't! They're good for garrisoning your cities, and they make passable second line troops, but they should never be the mainstay of your armies, because they weren't ever the mainstay of an army.

[First Citizen Gallienus]

Personally, I think the "generic" post-marian legionnaires should still be available when the first round of named and numbered legions become available (so, Roman Fortress?), but then disappear completely when the Curia Hostilia (representing Augustus' reforms) is built, as at this point, you haven't got the 28 legions yet. Most of the local units stay available between the two buildings, so there's no change there, just that the Roman Fortress should add the early named and numbered legions to the roster available under the Campus Martius, and then when you build the Curia Hostilia, there's the sweeping change of Augustus' reforms that removes everything but the named and numbered legions (or at least, moves them around), and introduces the segmentata legions, and replaces the local units with regularised Auxilia.
What do you think, DVK?
This would simulate the Roman army of the very late republic - from the time of Caesar and Pompey to after the Battle of Actium - as 60 legions (including some legions which were named or would go on to be named, but most were just numbered as they were recruited) were extant at the end of the Republic, and Augustus disbanded and merged them down to a much more manageable 28 named and numbered legions.

Also, the Evocati are retired veterans recalled to the standards - they're good, but not the best combat troops available, because, well, they weren't! They're good for garrisoning your cities, and they make passable second line troops, but they should never be the mainstay of your armies, because they weren't ever the mainstay of an army.

The generic Marian Legions are pretty awesome to use. I like your idea.

[dvk901]

Personally, I think the "generic" post-marian legionnaires should still be available when the first round of named and numbered legions become available (so, Roman Fortress?), but then disappear completely when the Curia Hostilia (representing Augustus' reforms) is built, as at this point, you haven't got the 28 legions yet. Most of the local units stay available between the two buildings, so there's no change there, just that the Roman Fortress should add the early named and numbered legions to the roster available under the Campus Martius, and then when you build the Curia Hostilia, there's the sweeping change of Augustus' reforms that removes everything but the named and numbered legions (or at least, moves them around), and introduces the segmentata legions, and replaces the local units with regularised Auxilia.
What do you think, DVK?
This would simulate the Roman army of the very late republic - from the time of Caesar and Pompey to after the Battle of Actium - as 60 legions (including some legions which were named or would go on to be named, but most were just numbered as they were recruited) were extant at the end of the Republic, and Augustus disbanded and merged them down to a much more manageable 28 named and numbered legions.

Also, the Evocati are retired veterans recalled to the standards - they're good, but not the best combat troops available, because, well, they weren't! They're good for garrisoning your cities, and they make passable second line troops, but they should never be the mainstay of your armies, because they weren't ever the mainstay of an army.

The problem is...how do I then get rid of them? The issue here is that the Roman barracks building has 7 levels.....two of which are only allowed in Rome (Praetorians).
The Roman government tree (client state, hostilia, etc.) also has 7 levels. Only 9 levels are allowed, so I couldn't combine the trees linearly, which would be more ideal.
So the Roman Hostilia tree only 'adds' levels and units to the other Roman Barracks tree....it can't take them away. So if, as you suggest, the 'Roman Legionary' unit was available in the last barracks that can be built outside Rome....it will be available forever. There's no way in RTW to make it NOT available. So the only way you can have it recruitable, and then not recruitable, is to take the unit out of the next linear building in a tree.

The work around for this.....which is the way it is now....was\is the only way I could see around this problem. You CAN continue to use the Roman Legionaries simply by not building the Imperial Palace in Sicily. And, there are so many buildings in RS2 to increase happiness, law and health that I think you could continue to not build it for very long time. That was the only choice I could really provide for the player given the limited way RTW allows recruiting units.

[rory o'kane]

errrr... I thought building an Imperial palace in Sicily triggered the Marian reforms - so the generic legions should only be available afterwards, as they represent the post-Marian legions?
So what you're telling me is if a unit is available in barracks level x, then it's automatically available in barracks X+1? if that's the case, how is it that when you build the Curia Hostilia, all the local units are done away with and replaced with Auxilia?

[dvk901]

Ehhh...ok, you didn't understand. Sorry. I try to explain this, but it's hard if you don't understand how the code and the buildings work. I'll try and explain better. Here is the 'offending' building:

field_mars requires factions { romans_brutii, } and building_present_min_level hinterland_settlement_determination fortified_city and building_present_min_level legion_suppy legion_suppy and building_present_min_level government_hostilia citizenship and hidden_resource roman_barracks
{
capability
{
agent spy 0 requires factions { romans_brutii, }
agent assassin 0 requires factions { romans_brutii, }
agent diplomat 0 requires factions { romans_brutii, }
recruit "roman early general" 0 requires factions { romans_brutii, } and not marian_reforms
recruit "roman armoured general" 0 requires factions { romans_brutii, } and marian_reforms
;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;Roman Infantry;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;
recruit "polybian republic legion" 0 requires factions { romans_brutii, } and not marian_reforms and not hidden_resource area4 and not hidden_resource area10
recruit "roman triarii" 0 requires factions { romans_brutii, } and not marian_reforms and not hidden_resource area4 and not hidden_resource area10
recruit "roman legionary" 0 requires factions { romans_brutii, } and marian_reforms and not hidden_resource area4 and not hidden_resource area10
recruit "roman legionary first" 0 requires factions { romans_brutii, } and marian_reforms and not hidden_resource area4 and not hidden_resource area10
recruit "roman evocatii" 0 requires factions { romans_brutii, } and marian_reforms and not hidden_resource area4 and not hidden_resource area10

Note that the Polybian and Triarii units have 'and not marian_reforms' after { romans_brutii, }. This means that when the Marian Reforms occur (you build the Imperial Palace in Sicily) these units are NOT available anymore in this building. The 'Roman Legionary' and Evocatii, however, have 'and marian_reforms' as a condition. So when the marian Reforms occur, these units become available in this building.

The next and last building in this tree that can be built outside Rome is this:

imperial_legion requires factions { romans_brutii, } and building_present_min_level hinterland_settlement_determination fortified_city and building_present_min_level legion_suppy legion_suppy and building_present_min_level government_hostilia citizenship and hidden_resource roman_barracks and marian_reforms
{
capability
{
;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;Roman Infantry;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;
agent spy 0 requires factions { roman, }
agent assassin 0 requires factions { roman, }
agent diplomat 1 requires factions { roman, }
recruit "roman armoured general" 1 requires factions { romans_brutii, }
;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;Marian Reforms Legions......Western
recruit "roman evocatii" 0 requires factions { romans_brutii, } and marian_reforms and not hidden_resource area4 and not hidden_resource area10
;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;Belgae area and Gaul
recruit "legio i germanica" 0 requires factions { romans_brutii, } and marian_reforms and hidden_resource area1 and hidden_resource limes
recruit "legio i germanica first" 1 requires factions { romans_brutii, } and marian_reforms and hidden_resource area1 and hidden_resource limes
recruit "legio i germanica" 0 requires factions { romans_brutii, } and marian_reforms and hidden_resource area13 and not hidden_resource no_way
recruit "legio i germanica first" 1 requires factions { romans_brutii, } and marian_reforms and hidden_resource area13 and not hidden_resource no_way
recruit "legio i germanica" 0 requires factions { romans_brutii, } and marian_reforms and hidden_resource area2 and hidden_resource r9
recruit "legio i germanica first" 1 requires factions { romans_brutii, } and marian_reforms and hidden_resource area2 and hidden_resource r9
recruit "legio i germanica" 0 requires factions { romans_brutii, } and marian_reforms and hidden_resource area5 and hidden_resource r11
recruit "legio i germanica first" 1 requires factions { romans_brutii, } and marian_reforms and hidden_resource area5 and hidden_resource r11
etc. etc. etc.

Follow the 'imperial_legion requires factions' line to the end and you will see: 'and marian_reforms'. In this case, the building itself is not available until the Marian Reforms occur, and this is the building where the first named and numbered Legions are recruitable. The 'Roman Legionary' unit has been removed. Why? Because this is the LAST building. If I put them in this building, you would be able to recruit them forever. But I did this this way for a reason....and because it was the only way to give the player a choice. You can play with the 'Roman Legionary' unit forever, if you like...just don't build the next building. You don't have to build it, and there is nothing gained except the named and numbered Legions we call 'Early Legions'. In fact, the 'field_mars' building only requires the 'citizenship' building in the Roman government tree, so if you don't build the 'roman_hostilia' in that tree, you won't ever get the late Imperial Legions either. So by building neither one of these, you could play with the Roman Legionary unit for the rest of the game if you wanted to.

[ur-Lord Tedric]

I'll certainly support that and add to my 'balancing and choice' comment; having given the matter a deal of thought...

What the mod allows are choices of all 3 of these things, which is really now down to the player:

1 - damp down Akragas completely and maintain the Early Republic as long as you wish (well, until the Civil War period really, but even after for the troops).

2 - get to the Later Republic and the post-Marian legions (of Marius, Pompey & Caesar and almost all the way to the effective end of the simulation); and choose to change to numbered legions, or not.

3 - do what I've just done in my testing and move straight passed the early legions to the numbered ones. This does add a nice extra flavour (I also did it to test advances), but I must admit that I might well not do it next time as it causes some management difficulties and I might do Option 2 sooner and delay the second part.

So, in short - player choice. The Official Release Thread contains all the info to make that choice.

[rory o'kane]

So is what you're saying, that due to the way the code works, if we make the Generic legionnaires available along with the early named and numbered legions in the Roman Fortress, then they'll always be available when you build the Curia because the Curia doesn't actually replace the Roman Fortress because it's in a separate tree? :S

[dvk901]

So is what you're saying, that due to the way the code works, if we make the Generic legionnaires available along with the early named and numbered legions in the Roman Fortress, then they'll always be available when you build the Curia because the Curia doesn't actually replace the Roman Fortress because it's in a separate tree? :S

Heh....yes.

[rory o'kane]

Ah, well, then it can't be done. Oh well. Thanks for explaining it!

[First Citizen Gallienus]

Damn...

[Constantius]

Just need some personnel house rules and some restraint

[Ferdiad]

Restraint is one thing gamers never have.

[Diocle]

Wise words Ferdi!!

Now, sorry but I do not understand why some people try to delay the Imperial Legions?....Why?
The mod starts from Hannibal!!!! You play hundreds of turns using your beloved Republican Legions!!! Hundreds of turns!!!! Do you understand???? hundred of turns!!!!!

Then finally you can deploy the magnificent Imperial Legions that made RS what RS is! that is a wonderful Mod....and NO! NO!!!....You do not like the Imperial Legions!!!.... You want to play for other hundreds turns using the Republican Legions!!!

Why? ...Is it a form of Sado-Masochism?.....Do you hate the Lorica Segmentata?......Are you Republican Integralists?....Why do you hate the Imperial Legions?.....Some religious problem?...Or a form of sexual perversion......to retard to pleasure to see on the field the magnificent work of the RSII creators??...Or amybe you hate the Imperal Legions, for British Chauvinism, because the guys in LS of the governor Svetonius Paulinus killed your dear Britons rebels??....Do you like Montefortino helmets??...Don't you like the Rectangular shields???....Do you hate deploying the Imperial Auxiliaries??......Do you hate the Imperial Gallic helmets?? Or maybe the wonderful designs of the shields?....really I do not undertand.........

Sorry guys!....I do not want to be provocative, but really I do not understand you!!!!!

[First Citizen Gallienus]

Wise words Ferdi!!

Now, sorry but I do not understand why some people try to delay the Imperial Legions?....Why?
The mod starts from Hannibal!!!! You play hundreds of turns using your beloved Republican Legions!!! Hundreds of turns!!!! Do you understand???? hundred of turns!!!!!

Then finally you can deploy the magnificent Imperial Legions that made RS what RS is! that is a wonderful Mod....and NO! NO!!!....You do not like the Imperial Legions!!!.... You want to play for other hundreds turns using the Republican Legions!!!

Why? ...Is it a form of Sado-Masochism?.....Do you hate the Lorica Segmentata?......Are you Republican Integralists?....Why do you hate the Imperial Legions?.....Some religious problem?...Or a form of sexual perversion......to retard to pleasure to see on the field the magnificent work of the RSII creators??...Or amybe you hate the Imperal Legions, for British Chauvinism, because the guys in LS of the governor Svetonius Paulinus killed your dear Britons rebels??....Do you like Montefortino helmets??...Don't you like the Rectangular shields???....Do you hate deploying the Imperial Auxiliaries??......Do you hate the Imperial Gallic helmets?? Or maybe the wonderful designs of the shields?....really I do not undertand.........

Sorry guys!....I do not want to be provocative, but really I do not understand you!!!!!

Do you hate Republican Legions?
I honestly, am going the historical route. I'm currently using the early Numbered legions and generic Marian legions right now. The time will come, once the civil war is over, where I will start recruiting the Imperials.

[Constantius]

Do you hate Republican Legions?
I honestly, am going the historical route. I'm currently using the early Numbered legions and generic Marian legions right now. The time will come, once the civil war is over, where I will start recruiting the Imperials.

I just like my campaigns to resemble history -as much as a game allows- so that doesn't mean LS I century Legions versus Philip V phalanx It is just personnel taste

[Ferdiad]

I just like my campaigns to resemble history -as much as a game allows- so that doesn't mean LS I century Legions versus Philip V phalanx It is just personnel taste

Personally I don't care. I use whatever units I want agaisnt whatever I want and while doing so I don't worry about it. Sure it's just a game.

[ur-Lord Tedric]

Personally I don't care. I use whatever units I want agaisnt whatever I want and while doing so I don't worry about it. Sure it's just a game.

(My bolding - and aiming at everyone, not Ferdiad.....)

I do feel there is a problem with that word and I feel it has become de-based over the years. A 'game' is supposed to be challenging and competative; all real games are simply civilised representations of warfare and training for same; in many cases providing things for young virile men to do instead of killing each other, or forming hunting parties.

RSII, for me, can provide the best approximation to a decent simulation that I have ever seen, and I love the Team for it. I am honoured and proud to have now been a little part of the latest patch. However, it can also be entertainment, but that will be always a little constrained by some of the things that have been put in to make it the simulation it is.

So, whilst I and others like to try and play with the Roman Army as it kind of was, then that's fine, it fits in with the simulation idea. If Ferdiad and others want to use any and all of the units that could have been available and try them out within the arena, then that's perfectly fine as well.

I wrote it earlier as well, but the simulation also allows the player to control when and if the reforms happen and how quickly they get to the different legions (which aren't all the real legions as they represent a snap-shot at a particular time - but are wonderful flavour); so, if you wish to continue the citizen Republican armies of the Early Republic, or have the post-Marian later Republic permanent legions (many of which survived to pick up their 'proper names'), or get to those legions as soon as possible - then the point is that it is your choice.

I am urging the Team to think about a pause whilst genuine problems are fixed, whilst perhaps thinking of 'tweaking' for balancing purposes to refine towards perfection what they have already achieved. I am volunteering to continue my Roma 1turn play-test and blog it in detail for people to comment and suggest things, because I am passionate about the game and do indeed try and play it 'realistically'. I believe the game should be balanced about Rome, for that's the name of the game; set the baseline and then balance all other factions around it.

One of the major things to balance are the finances; and this is why I urge people to be careful around the changes they request. If the Garrison Script is 'done away with', then an effect is that less troops are required; which mean less money is required - and/or the game will become easier with too much money. So, if the script is modified or deleted, then perhaps the income/expense needs to be changed too, etc.

Is there anyone out there who may have sufficient time to properly play-test a Roma 0turn as well? That would be a useful counter and help people towards the play-styles they prefer.