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  1. #1

    Default Nationalism and Citizenship

    I read an interesting article from Stratfor regarding nationalism/ethnic loyalties and one's citizenship or in many cases one's dual-citizenship. The main issue here that I see is how should one's ethnic loyalty be affected by citizenship. Is citizenship just a obligation of taxes, following the law or does citizenship require deeper loyalty to the country in question - an utmost allegiance to that country over your ethnic ties?

    In many cases though in Western Europe or even US, we see people that carry the country's citizenship but show very little if any allegiance to that country, and show allegiance instead to the country of their ethnicity. Is this justified? Acceptable? In my view, it is understandable given the person has grown up with closer ties to his ethnicity than the country of his citizenship. And most likely such a person would fight for the country of their ethnicity over the country of citizenship. As we see in this case, ethnic ties override citizenship "obligations".

    Thoughts?

    Article:

    Geopolitics is central to Stratfor's methodology, providing the framework upon which we study the world. The foundation of geopolitics in our time is the study of the nation-state, and fundamental to this is the question of the relationship of the individual to the nation-state. Changes in the relationship of the individual to the nation and to the state are fundamental issues in geopolitics, and thus worth discussing.

    Many issues affect this complex relationship, notable among them the increasing global trend of multiple citizenship. This is obviously linked to the question of immigration, but it also raises a deeper question, namely, what is the meaning of citizenship in the 21st century?
    continued

    Nation vs. State

    It is difficult to make sense of the international system without making sense of the nation-state. The concept is complicated by a reality that includes multinational states like Belgium, where national identity plays a significant role, and Russia or China, where it can be both significant and at times violent. In looking at the nation-state, the idea of nation is more complex, and perhaps more interesting, than that of state.

    The idea of nation is not always clear. At root, a nation is a group of people who share a fate, and with that fate, an identity. Nations can be consciously created, as the United States was. Nations can exist for hundreds or thousands of years, as seen in parts of Europe or Asia. However long a nation exists and whatever its origins, a nation is founded on what I've called elsewhere "love of one's own," a unique relationship with the community in which an individual is born or to which he chose to come. That affinity is the foundation of a nation.

    If that dissolves, the nation dissolves, something that has happened on numerous occasions in history. If a nation disappears, the international system begins to behave differently. And if nations in general lose their identity and cohesion, massive shifts might take place. Some might say it would be for better and others for worse. It is sufficient to note here that either way would make a profound difference.

    The state is much clearer: It is the political directorate of the nation. How the leaders are selected and how they govern varies widely. The relationship of the state to the nation also varies widely. Not all nations have states. Some are occupied by other nation-states. Some are divided between multiple states. Some are part of an entity that governs many nations. And some are communities that have developed systems of government that do not involve states, although this is increasingly rare.

    The relation to the nation is personal. The relation to the state is legal. We can see this linguistically in the case of the United States. I can state my relation to my nation simply: I am an American. I cannot state my relationship to my state nearly as simply. Saying I am a "United Statian" makes no sense. I have to say that I am a citizen of the United States, to state my legal relationship, not personal affinity. The linguistic complexity of the United States doesn't repeat itself everywhere, but a distinction does exist between nationality and citizenship. They may coincide easily, as when a person is born in a country and becomes a citizen simply through that, or they may develop, as when an individual is permitted to immigrate and become naturalized. Note the interesting formulation of that term, as it implies the creation of a natural relationship with the state.

    In the United States, the following oath is administered when one is permitted to become a citizen, generally five years after being permitted to immigrate:

    I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen; that I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform noncombatant service in the Armed Forces of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform work of national importance under civilian direction when required by the law; and that I take this obligation freely without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; so help me God.

    I should say I took this oath at the age of 17. Although I became a citizen of the United States when my father was naturalized years earlier, receiving my own citizenship papers involved going to a courthouse and taking this oath personally. Being confronted with the obligations of citizenship was a sobering experience.

    The American oath is one of the most rigorous; other nations have much simpler and less demanding oaths. Intriguingly, many countries with less explicitly demanding oaths are also countries where becoming a naturalized citizen is more difficult and less common. For the United States, a nation and a state that were consciously invented, the idea of immigration was inherent in the very idea of the nation, as was this oath. Immigration and naturalization required an oath of this magnitude, as naturalization meant taking on not only a new state identity but also a new national identity.

    The American nation was built on immigrants from other nations. Unless they were prepared to "absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen," the American enterprise could fall into chaos as immigrants came to the United States to secure the benefits of full citizenship but refused to abandon prior obligations and refused to agree to the obligations and sacrifices the oath demanded. The United States therefore is in a position shared only with a few other immigration-based nations, and it has staked out the most demanding position on naturalization.

    The Dual Citizenship Anomaly

    It is therefore odd that the United States — along with many other nations — permits nationals to be citizens of other countries. The U.S. Constitution doesn't bar this, but the oath of citizenship would seem to do so. The oath demands that the immigrant abandon all obligations to foreign states. The U.S. Supreme Court ruled in Afroyim v. Rusk in 1967 that revoking citizenship on grounds of voting in foreign elections was unconstitutional. The ruling involved a naturalized American who presumably had taken the oath. The Supreme Court left the oath in place, but if we are to understand the court correctly, it ruled that the oath did not preclude multiple citizenship.

    It is impossible to know how many people in the United States or other countries currently hold multiple citizenship, but anecdotally it would appear that the practice is not uncommon. Not being required to renounce one's foreign citizenship verifiably obviously facilitates the practice.

    And this raises a fundamental question. Is citizenship a license to live and earn a living in a country, or is it equally or more so a set of legal and moral obligations? There are many ways legally to reside in a country without becoming a citizen. But the American oath, for example, makes it appear that the naturalized citizen (as opposed to just the legal resident) has an overriding obligation to the United States that can require substantial and onerous responsibilities within military and civilian life. An individual might be able to juggle multiple obligations until they came into conflict. Does the citizen choose his prime obligation at that time or when he becomes a citizen?

    The reality is that in many cases, citizenship is seen less as a system of mutual obligations and rights than as a convenience. This creates an obvious tension between the citizen and his obligations under his oath. But it also creates a deep ambiguity between his multiple nationalities. The concept of immigration involves the idea of movement to a new place. It involves the assumption of legal and moral obligations. But it also involves a commitment to the nation, at least as far as citizenship goes. This has nothing to do with retaining ethnicity. It has to do with a definition of what it means to love one's own — if you are a citizen of multiple nations, which nation is yours?

    It is interesting to note that the United States has been equally ambiguous about serving in other countries' militaries. John Paul Jones served as an admiral in the Russian navy. American pilots flew for Britain and China prior to American entry into World War II. They did not take the citizenship oath, having been born in the United States. While you could argue that there was an implicit oath, you could also argue that they did not compromise their nationality: They remained Americans even in fighting for other countries. The immigration issue is more complex, however. In electing to become American citizens, immigrants consciously take the citizenship oath. The explicit oath would seem to create a unique set of obligations for naturalized immigrants.

    The Pull of the Old Country

    Apart from acquiring convenient passports on obscure tropical islands, the dual citizenship phenomenon appears to operate by linking ancestral homelands with adopted countries. Immigrants, and frequently their children and grandchildren, retain their old citizenship alongside citizenship in the country they now live in. This seems a benign practice and remains so until there is conflict or disagreement between the two countries — or where, as in some cases, the original country demands military service as the price of retaining citizenship.

    In immigrant countries in particular, the blurring of the line between nationalities becomes a potential threat in a way that it is not for the country of origin. The sense of national identity (if not willingness to sacrifice for it) is often stronger in countries whose nationhood is built on centuries of shared history and fates than it is in countries that must manage waves of immigration. These countries have less room for maneuver on these matters, unless they have the fortune to be secure and need not ask much of citizens. But in those countries that are built on immigrants and that do need to call for sacrifice, this evolution is potentially more troublesome.

    There are those who regard nationalism as divisive and harmful, leading to conflict. I am of the view that nationalism has endured because it provides individuals with a sense of place, community, history and identity. It gives individuals something beyond themselves that is small enough to be comprehensible but far greater than they are. That nationalism can become monstrous is obviously true; anything that is useful can also become harmful. But nationalism has survived and flourished for a reason.

    The rise of multiple citizenship undoubtedly provides freedom. But as is frequently the case, the freedom raises the question of what an individual is committed to beyond himself. In blurring the lines between nations, it does not seem that it has reduced conflict. Quite the contrary, it raises the question of where the true loyalties of citizens lie, something unhealthy for the citizen and the nation-state.

    In the United States, it is difficult to reconcile the oath of citizenship with the Supreme Court's ruling affirming the right of dual citizenship. That ambiguity over time could give rise to serious problems. This is not just an American problem, although it might be more intense and noticeable here. It is a more general question, namely, what does it mean to be a citizen?



    Read more: Geopolitics of Nationalism and Dual Citizenship | Stratfor


    http://www.stratfor.com/analysis/geo...al-citizenship
    Last edited by Darth Red; March 19, 2012 at 12:13 PM. Reason: spoiler for long quotes
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  2. #2
    The.Delegate's Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: Nationalism and Citizenship

    Good article, I usually find stratfor's stuff interesting.

    They missed the fact that people coming from certain origins integrate more easily than those from others. Specifically, I'm thinking of people coming from Europe to North America or Aus/NZ. Because these immigrant societies sprung originally from Europeans, they have a shared set of values that makes integration easier. Example, my family. Both my paternal grandparents are not Canadians but they moved here from Netherlands and UK after WWII and basically became Canadian immediately, and there is no dual citizenship in my family on that side. Nor is there on my maternal side, but they've been here for a century.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Nationalism and Citizenship

    Loyalty should always be to ones ethnicity rather then country. However this causes problems with immigrants. Immigrants who are loyal to they're ethnicity are bound to not provide for the country they are living in and become a group of people who are called the fifth column.

    However i feel that being loyal to your country when you are not in your native country is even worse, since you are abandoning your original one for another, that might have a very different people, culture and language.
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  4. #4

    Default Re: Nationalism and Citizenship

    Quote Originally Posted by Húrin the Steadfast View Post
    Loyalty should always be to ones ethnicity rather then country. However this causes problems with immigrants. Immigrants who are loyal to they're ethnicity are bound to not provide for the country they are living in and become a group of people who are called the fifth column.

    However i feel that being loyal to your country when you are not in your native country is even worse, since you are abandoning your original one for another, that might have a very different people, culture and language.
    Ethnic ties can very easily override legal ties via citizenship. In the end, citizenship is just a bureaucratic paperwork - your ethnic tie is something more deeper and metaphysical, something not attainable through paperwork.

    Quote Originally Posted by The.Delegate View Post
    Good article, I usually find stratfor's stuff interesting.

    They missed the fact that people coming from certain origins integrate more easily than those from others. Specifically, I'm thinking of people coming from Europe to North America or Aus/NZ. Because these immigrant societies sprung originally from Europeans, they have a shared set of values that makes integration easier. Example, my family. Both my paternal grandparents are not Canadians but they moved here from Netherlands and UK after WWII and basically became Canadian immediately, and there is no dual citizenship in my family on that side. Nor is there on my maternal side, but they've been here for a century.
    That's true and it's natural that it will be like that because the society and culture is the most similar to their native society, so it's easy to "fit in". Of course the trend changes regarding which groups assimilate more easily. For example, being a Catholic at some point made your stand out in the Americas. You see the people that stick to their ethnic ties over their adopted country's ties usually part of groups that don't fit in as well in the given society.
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  5. #5

    Default Re: Nationalism and Citizenship

    In longer term, there will be no problem at all, only the first generation immigrant who still have strong feeling and ties about their country of ethnicity, nostalgia is powerful feeling. Some of the 2n'd generation will have feeling if they still have personal tie (familiy) in the country of ethnicity+ hearing nostalgia stories from their parent about their mother country, but by the 3'rd or 4'th generation, nothing left. Whatever close family they still have/know in the country of ethnicity already died by now, even if they go back to their country of ethnicity for long time vacation, they will feel more like a stranger than coming home.

    edit
    imo Religion is far more powerful and dangerous than ethnic ties, it can remove both the nationality and ethnic ties easily.
    Last edited by Ak1980; March 19, 2012 at 01:53 PM.

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    Default Re: Nationalism and Citizenship

    I think the main problem is the 1.5 generation - those who immigrant as child but still old enough to have some attachments with native country. Culturally this generation would be always treated as foreigner in both countries as their cultural sense is a mixture of both.
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    Default Re: Nationalism and Citizenship

    I like the OP, but i just don't see it where i live. I have a German who fought for Germany in World War II living down the street for me, and he is the most patriotic person on my street. Speaks good English too. Hasn't been to Germany though since 1945.

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    Default Re: Nationalism and Citizenship

    To the OP:

    I feel your theme touches at most the theme integration within the particular state or country.

    An integrated citizen usually develops a feeling of responsibility for the affaires of the country, a kind of patriotism, perhaps (imo. hopefully) in a positive manner, not in a pure nationalist manner only because of ethnicity and/or historical links or even only the ideas that stick behind the constitution of a state.

    This process is linked directly to: The degree of integration requires participation within the society, ie. the person must have access (chances) to a societal participation - education, profession, whatsoever are important items for the integrations-degree.
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    Default Re: Nationalism and Citizenship

    Quote Originally Posted by Azoth View Post
    I like the OP, but i just don't see it where i live. I have a German who fought for Germany in World War II living down the street for me, and he is the most patriotic person on my street. Speaks good English too. Hasn't been to Germany though since 1945.
    I'm assuming he doesn't view himself as German anymore and would fight for that country he's living in rather than for Germany. It's a case of successful assimilation if this is true. Also, it's much easier for Western Europeans to assimilate in Western immigrant countries.

    Quote Originally Posted by hellheaven1987 View Post
    I think the main problem is the 1.5 generation - those who immigrant as child but still old enough to have some attachments with native country. Culturally this generation would be always treated as foreigner in both countries as their cultural sense is a mixture of both.
    The 1.5 generation is very interesting. Some assimilate, but some tend to emphasise their ethnic roots over the country they live in. They may even be more nationalistic about their ethnic roots than their parents and if they've grown up properly with their culture, I don't think they'll be viewed as a foreigner in their ethnic environment. I think though the reasons for such identification maybe a result of rebellion, wanting to stand out, but also genuine ethnic ties that come from growing up in an insular community/household.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ak1980 View Post
    In longer term, there will be no problem at all, only the first generation immigrant who still have strong feeling and ties about their country of ethnicity, nostalgia is powerful feeling. Some of the 2n'd generation will have feeling if they still have personal tie (familiy) in the country of ethnicity+ hearing nostalgia stories from their parent about their mother country, but by the 3'rd or 4'th generation, nothing left. Whatever close family they still have/know in the country of ethnicity already died by now, even if they go back to their country of ethnicity for long time vacation, they will feel more like a stranger than coming home.
    Depends also on the community they grow up in. You can have very insular ethnic communities where assimilation outside that group is very difficult. Only way to assimilate is to exit the community.

    edit
    imo Religion is far more powerful and dangerous than ethnic ties, it can remove both the nationality and ethnic ties easily.
    This is especially true in Islam which tends to be rather anti-nationalistic.

    Quote Originally Posted by DaVinci View Post
    To the OP:

    I feel your theme touches at most the theme integration within the particular state or country.

    An integrated citizen usually develops a feeling of responsibility for the affaires of the country, a kind of patriotism, perhaps (imo. hopefully) in a positive manner, not in a pure nationalist manner only because of ethnicity and/or historical links or even only the ideas that stick behind the constitution of a state.

    This process is linked directly to: The degree of integration requires participation within the society, ie. the person must have access (chances) to a societal participation - education, profession, whatsoever are important items for the integrations-degree.
    Though that participation is sometimes hampered by the fact that a person grows up in an ethnic community/household and hence their participation within society may be restricted to the ethnic community rather than the society of that country.
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  10. #10

    Default Re: Nationalism and Citizenship

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Mov View Post
    Depends also on the community they grow up in. You can have very insular ethnic communities where assimilation outside that group is very difficult. Only way to assimilate is to exit the community.
    Even in that kind of community, the third and fourth generation usually have no feeling to their country of ethnicity.

    For example China overseas in Indonesia, they are quite insular, marry each other in the community, often become pogrom target, they are also the official target for discrimination by the government. But no one in the third or fourth generation when they study language in China, care to visit their original village in China, rekindle the old tie. When they are in China they are homesick for Indonesia, longing for Indonesian food. In short they feel like a stranger in PRC China.
    Last edited by Ak1980; March 19, 2012 at 11:16 PM.

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    Default Re: Nationalism and Citizenship

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Mov View Post

    This is especially true in Islam which tends to be rather anti-nationalistic.

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  12. #12

    Default Re: Nationalism and Citizenship

    Quote Originally Posted by Town Watch View Post
    explain yourself!
    Here's an interesting essay on Islam and Nationalism:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    - Islam and nationalism as two opposite poles

    Simple patriotic sentiments, so long as they do not contravene the higher conviction of man is permissible in Islam, like the affection one feels towards one's father, son and family. But as already shown, nationalism does not stop at simple sentiments. It is a socio-political creed and an actual way of life which aims at a full control of man's individual and social conduct. Islam, too, being a school having its own independent, spiritual, practical, political and social system and comprising a particular set of beliefs, it naturally comes into conflict with the school of nationalism.

    Unlike other religions such as Christianity, Buddhism etc, Islam is not confined to religious rites and metaphysical convictions. Had Islam been only a religion of devotions, it might have agreed with nationalism. But Islam is a religion with asocial and philosophical worldview, and provides for economic and political principles. Nationalism, too, has its own social and political principles based however on different beliefs and criteria. Therefore, conflict between Islam and nationalism is inevitable. The Islamic ideology is not compatible with any other ideology on the question of sovereignty over the private and social life of Muslims. A Muslim cannot at the same time be a Muslim and a polytheist, or a Muslim and communist. In Islam, there is no room for one to be a loyal and genuine nationalist. It is a question of identity, and one negates the other.

    Nationalism is incompatible with Islam, both schools having two opposite ideologies. These two assume two totally opposite poles in their spirit, essence, direction and goal.

    As we shall explain later, the Quran has explicitly rejected the basis of nationalism, and states that language, colour and race are no criteria for unity and privilege. The only criteria are belief and virtue. A common ideology is the basis of the unity of the Islamic ummah, not race, country, language or even culture. The goal of nationalism is to create national units, whereas the goal of Islam is universal unity. To nationalism what matters the most is loyalty and attachment to the homeland, whereas to Islam, it is God and religion. Nationalism gives authenticity to geographical boundaries and racial distinctions, whereas Islam negates them. Nationalism inclines to limitation and race, but Islam assumes a universal outlook.

    Nationalism attaches value only to the historical traditions, culture, civilization, ideas and historical figures of its own nation, but Islam's vision goes beyond the frontier, race, tribe and nation. Moses, Jesus, Muhammad and Ali are considered as belonging to all mankind. Islam wishes all nations to regard the Quran as their Book, and the Ka'aba as their Qibla, and true leaders of Islam as their leaders.

    It is very hard for nationalism to accept this view. According to its limited vision, it considers the entry of Islam as a transgression or as something dangerous. It associates the nation to Cyrus and Darius, not to Muhammad and Ali. It intends to revive its ancient past which Islam calls paganism. Islam curses the Pharaoh, but Egyptian nationalism makes him a national hero to be worshipped.

    The logical result of this attitude is to revive national creeds. It is not surprising that during the nationalistic regime of Pahlavi, the creeds of Zoroastrianism and Baha'ism which were regarded as Iranian faiths, were encouraged by the regime. In the time of Hitler's domination over Germany, Nazi thinkers belonged to one of the two following groups: one group considered Christ as a Palestinian Jewish descendant and thus rejected Christianity, and the other group turned to Christianity and wanted to prove that Christ was not Palestinian, but of the Nordic race.

    Islam says that all the Muslims in the world are members of the same body and all Islamic nations, Arab, non-Arab, Turk, Afghan, Indian, black, white and yellow must belong to one ummah in their belief. But nationalism considers the religious solidarity of a country with other nations as a danger for national and tribal identity.

    Thus, nationalism's vision about society and politics is quite opposite to that of Islam, and these two cannot go together. That's why the nationalists of other Islamic lands regard separation from Islam a condition for nationalism to succeed, even if they do not utter it. Their acts reveal their hatred towards those who seek Islam.

    The Prophet's combat with Qureish nationalism

    At the advent of Islam and the Islamic revolution, the only social and political organizations of the pre-Islamic Arabs were the tribe, race and language which were used as measures of superiority or inferiority. Blood and tribal bond was the basis of unity, a rough and raw form of modern nationalism and racism. Language, too, was regarded as a sign of superiority and for this reason, the Arabs considered non-Arabs as “Ajam", which means dumb.

    The progress of the Islamic revolution did away with this idea and with tribal organization; with the tempestuous slogan of “There is no god but God", it made conviction and ideology prevail over all attachments to blood, territory and language.

    The Prophet (s) who founded the classless and universal society of Islam, actually brought various nations together and removed their tribal hues. At a gathering of three Muslims from three countries, namely Salman from Pars, Soheib from White Romans and Bilal from Black Ethiopia, an Arab named Gheys-bin- Motateba entered and addressed the above as 'foreigners'. The Prophet (s) said in anger: “Your father is the same and your religion is the same, and the Arabism of which you seem to be proud belongs neither to your father, nor to your mother (meaning Adam and Eve are the parents of all of you)". Then he declared: “He who propagates the creed of tribal solidarity or fights for its sake or offers his life for it, is not of us."

    Nationalist forces and tribal prejudices stood stubbornly against this revolutionary message of Islam, and served as a barrier against its expansion. Those factors made the Qureish and other nations of the time take a posture against the Prophet of Islam. They protested why the Quran did not descend upon a select man of Mecca and Tayef. As the Quran says:

    “And they say: Why was not this Quran revealed to a man of importance in the two towns?" (43:31)

    Arab tribes with their limited tribal vision wondered why the Prophet (s) did not belong to their tribes and whether he intended to establish the superiority of his own tribe. Abu-Jahl said openly: “We are the equals of the family of Abd-Manaf. In horsemanship we are their rival and in generosity their equal. How is it now that they claim prophethood and revelation? By God, we will not accept Muhammad as a Prophet."

    The same racial and tribal prejudice made the Jews who had long been waiting for the advent of such a Prophet, to stand against Muhammad. Thus they refused to accept the truth and were worried why the Prophet (s) was a descendant of Ismail and not of the Israelites. So they united the pagans and polytheists against the believers in God.

    Kindling the flame of national feeling was the wickedest weapon of the Medinan hypocrites against Islam. In one case, one of their leaders, by bringing up the question of the Battle of Beghath, managed to get the two great Muslim tribes of Owss and Khazraj into conflict, when the following verse was revealed:




    "O you who believe: If you obey a party from among those who have been given the Book, they will turn you back as unbelievers after you believed." (3: 100)

    Abdollah bin Abi, a leader of the Medinan hypocrites was a loyal nationalist, and constantly instigated the people of Medina, in favour of nationalism, saying:

    "A few beggars have come to our country from other lands and have become bullies. They are like dogs which are fattened to assault us.”

    He told the Medinans:

    “It is wrong of you to have made those foreigners partners in your wealth and country. If you stop helping them today, they will flee."

    In answer to these futile words, the following verse was revealed:




    "They it is who say: Do not spend upon those who are with the Apostle of God until they break up. And God's are the treasures of the heavens and the earth, but the hypocrites do not understand. They say: If we return to Medina, the mighty will surely drive out the meaner there from; and to God belongs the might and to His apostate and to the believers but the hypocrites do not know." (63:7-8)

    Thus, one sees the dangerous dimensions of the opposition to Islam based on tribal and national sentiments. It becomes clear with what has been said so far, that next to paganism and polytheism, the prejudice of blood, land, ancestors and tribe is the greatest enemy of Islam. The Prophet (s) fought strongly against it until he removed these barriers in the way of the divine ideology of Islam. The hostility between national prejudice and Islam is not anew phenomenon. It began with the advent of Islam.

    Tribe worship (tribalism) and tribalistic sentiments have always been a threat to Islam. The nationalist Arabs take pride in their being Arab, not in being Muslims. An Egyptian thinks of his Pharaoh. A Turk tries to show his connection with Chengiz and Halaku. An Iranian takes pride in Cyrus, Darius, Buzarjomehr, Mani and Mazdak, instead of pride in Muhammad and Ali. An Indian makes heroes of the mythical Hindu figures, and instead of going to the well of Zamzam, he seeks the River Ganges. In this way, the entity of Islam is endangered. That is why Islam has always been hostile to nationalism.


    http://www.al-islam.org/islamandnationalism/9.htm


    Quote Originally Posted by Ak1980 View Post
    Even in that kind of community, the third and fourth generation usually have no feeling to their country of ethnicity.

    For example China overseas in Indonesia, they are quite insular, marry each other in the community, often become pogrom target, they are also the official target for discrimination by the government. But no one in the third or fourth generation when they study language in China, care to visit their original village in China, rekindle the old tie. When they are in China they are homesick for Indonesia, longing for Indonesian food. In short they feel like a stranger in PRC China.
    Yeah such insular communities can survive many generations against assimilation.
    Last edited by Armenum; March 20, 2012 at 12:32 AM.
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  13. #13

    Default Re: Nationalism and Citizenship

    Romania grants Romanian citizenship to people or their descendants that lost Romanian citizenship after WWII with the annexation of Bessrabia to Soviet Union. Today most of these people live in the Republic of Moldova, with some parts being in Ukraine. Republic of Moldova has a majority of ethnic Romanians, but the state promotes for them a "Moldovan" ethnicity (to prevent Union with Romania). About half the Moldovan citizens expressed their desire to aquire Romanian citizenship, some because they thought it's their right as Romanians and because the citizenship was taken to them or their parents illegally, but most just because Romania is EU country and this brings many advantages, as free circulation and working rights inside EU. R. of Moldova has about 4 million people. Not only ethnic Romanians/"Moldovans" asked for citizenship, but also Russians, Ukrainians, etc. their parents were Romanian citizens before 1944, too.

    Republic of Moldova tryed at first to forbid this move, but eventually she was forced by the facts to allow it, as there were too many people with dual citizenship already so she gave way. To note pro-Russian Communists were the most determined adversaries to dual Moldovan-Romanian citizenship (I gues they weren't so much against Moldovan-Russian citizenship), acusing Romania she's trying to undermine the statality of R. of Moldova. So far nothing happened, R. of Moldova is still there, those pro-Union are still a small minority, there are many MP's, ministers with dual citizenship, to be fair when you look at Moldovan Communists (about 40% of electorate, mostly Rusophones) you realise you don't need dual citizenship to be loyal to another country, in their case Russia.
    Last edited by CiviC; March 22, 2012 at 02:07 PM.

  14. #14
    Treize's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Nationalism and Citizenship

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Mov View Post
    I read an interesting article from Stratfor regarding nationalism/ethnic loyalties and one's citizenship or in many cases one's dual-citizenship. The main issue here that I see is how should one's ethnic loyalty be affected by citizenship. Is citizenship just a obligation of taxes, following the law or does citizenship require deeper loyalty to the country in question - an utmost allegiance to that country over your ethnic ties?
    In my opinion, yes. As a result dual citizenship should be banned and strict conditions must be set before someone can recieve citizenship, not only must a person have had a paid job (or education) for a year or 10 (no (full) right to welfare for non-citizens in the meantime), a clean crime record and a good knowledge of the language but he must also reject his previous citizenship. Only people who truely want to be part of their new society should have a chance to obtain citizenship. It must be seen as a reward for good behaviour and a degree of assimilation, not some flyer that is handed out on entering the country.

    In many cases though in Western Europe or even US, we see people that carry the country's citizenship but show very little if any allegiance to that country, and show allegiance instead to the country of their ethnicity. Is this justified? Acceptable? In my view, it is understandable given the person has grown up with closer ties to his ethnicity than the country of his citizenship. And most likely such a person would fight for the country of their ethnicity over the country of citizenship. As we see in this case, ethnic ties override citizenship "obligations".

    Thoughts?
    A worrying development.
    Last edited by Treize; March 22, 2012 at 02:27 PM.
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  15. #15

    Default Re: Nationalism and Citizenship

    Quote Originally Posted by IPA35 View Post
    In my opinion, yes. As a result dual citizenship should be banned and strict conditions must be set before someone can recieve citizenship, not only must a person have had a paid job (or education) for a year or 10 (no (full) right to welfare for non-citizens in the meantime), a clean crime record and a good knowledge of the language but he must also reject his previous citizenship. Only people who truely want to be part of their new society should have a chance to obtain citizenship. It must be seen as a reward for good behaviour and a degree of assimilation, not some flyer that is handed out on entering the country.
    I think dual citizenship is less of a problem in immigrant countries such as in the Americas, but for countries in Europe like Holland or France, I see it as more of a problem. But I do agree that citizenship requirements for example in Europe should be solidified around the premise that you are fluent in the language, knowledgeable of the culture, you work and pay your dues, and are not a criminal. If such requirements were solidified you wouldn't have Dutch passport holders walking around not knowing how to speak the language and pretty much having little to do with Dutch society.
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  16. #16
    pchalk's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Nationalism and Citizenship

    the german term "heimat" fits very well here. it doesnt translate very well in to english but the concept of "nation" as more of a feeling than official status is certainly part of this discussion and fits in to the word perfectly. i actually finished a paper on this not 2 weeks ago. to define it solely on ethnicity would not be the whole picture but it certainly can be a big part of it. there is a cultural element that in my mind is bigger.

    rep lord mov, good article and being a dual citizen myself, it goes without saying this topic hits close to home for me

  17. #17

    Default Re: Nationalism and Citizenship

    Quote Originally Posted by pchalk View Post
    the german term "heimat" fits very well here. it doesnt translate very well in to english but the concept of "nation" as more of a feeling than official status is certainly part of this discussion and fits in to the word perfectly. i actually finished a paper on this not 2 weeks ago. to define it solely on ethnicity would not be the whole picture but it certainly can be a big part of it. there is a cultural element that in my mind is bigger.

    rep lord mov, good article and being a dual citizen myself, it goes without saying this topic hits close to home for me
    I agree with that 'heimat' concept, that's very true. Ethnicity or blood in the end doesn't influence how you think and feel, it's just some genetic marker that can only be seen by some complicated DNA tests. Neither do I see bureaucratic paperwork (citizenship) as being a very large factor, though playing a role to an extent. It's your personal culture connection and inner connection to a given nation and people that's the most important bond. Such a bond developed not by taking a oath in a bureaucratic office, but by growing up in that environment/household that holds those values and culture.
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  18. #18

    Default Re: Nationalism and Citizenship

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Mov View Post
    I agree with that 'heimat' concept, that's very true. Ethnicity or blood in the end doesn't influence how you think and feel, it's just some genetic marker that can only be seen by some complicated DNA tests. Neither do I see bureaucratic paperwork (citizenship) as being a very large factor, though playing a role to an extent. It's your personal culture connection and inner connection to a given nation and people that's the most important bond. Such a bond developed not by taking a oath in a bureaucratic office, but by growing up in that environment/household that holds those values and culture.
    I couldn't agree more. We could argue the virtes of ethnicity and citizenship all day but as you said its realy a personal thing developed through personal experiences. As an Irish man in Northern Ireland, I see first hand the issues of ethnicity and citizenship everyday, its a complicated and touchy issue depending on who you talk to.
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  19. #19
    Col. Tartleton's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Nationalism and Citizenship

    You are bound legally to the place you hold citizenship. Any ties to your "culture" is secondary. If you don't like that go home.
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  20. #20

    Default Re: Nationalism and Citizenship

    Quote Originally Posted by Col. Tartleton View Post
    You are bound legally to the place you hold citizenship. Any ties to your "culture" is secondary. If you don't like that go home.
    Except it's never that simple. You can't just erode a deep cultural/metaphysical connection to your culture overnight because of a bureaucratic piece of paper telling you what nationality you are.
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