Dwarf lore - current situation?

[Vilihelm]

we have a lot of books about empire faction - situation is clear. what about dwarfs? three books are about ancient times - honorkeep, oathbreaker and grudgebearer. what is going on now in mountains, except waaaagh crusade? we have high king thorgrim, gotrek, slayer king, what more? most we know is from warhammer online lore. so does the dwarfs just defending? or trying to recapture lost keeps? any book about 2500 year? maybe i missed something

[Reiksfart]

If you would have posted this a year ago there would be several huge posts by the resident dwarf guru's, Littledwarf and RedDwarf. Alas, they are both gone.

Probably a good thing because they'd both be going nuts when I release my submod. Dwarves are outmatched by the metrosexuals High Elves, as they should be in close combat in warhammer tabletop rules. That's why they have so much artillery, to even it out.

[LittleDwarf]

Mwhahahahahhah. *Diabolical laughter from beyond the Warp* That is not dead which can eternal lie, and which strange eons even death may die. I'm only kind of partially dead.

Dwarves are outmatched by the metrosexuals High Elves, as they should be (...).

Wait, what?! This is an OUTRAGE! *Writes it down in his book of grudges.* Forever you'll be tainted by those damnable words. Forever you'll be frowned upon. There will be no mercy. There will be no remorse. No blood spilled shall be enough. Never shall this grudge be struck out. This dishonor shall be paid tenfold, by dwarven axe! By blood and ruin, by hearth and hold by honor oath it is sworn!


Bah, but seriously: as for the Dwarfs current situation - I'll elaborate on the subject, but later this day, when I come back from school. I'll edit this post.

[Lord Baal]

I'll elaborate on the subject, but later this day, when I come back from school. I'll edit this post.

We are waiting!

[IrishBlood]

We are waiting!

lol yup

[Ichon]

Artillery is hard to balance in MTW2... not that it can't be done but artillery accurate enough to help Elves defeat Orcs or Goblins might do hardly anything to Chaos.

[Reiksfart]

Not sure what you mean, I wasn't talking about high elf artillery, which they certainly don't have to rely upon to win battles. I meant dwarves, who, like Empire need to rely upon combined arms to do well.

[KamikazeFTW]

Nothing good for the dwarves, they're basically in the same predicament as the LOTR dwarves, being slowly overrun by endless waves of enemies. If I remeber correctly one of their main fortresses is virtually undersiege by a clan of night goblins.

So, no, they really aren't on the offensive, though they are able to send armies to their allies in times of great peril. This does show that they are on a pretty solid footing and it would take a disastrous defeat to really destabilize them.

[Inconsistent]

Nothing good for the dwarves, they're basically in the same predicament as the LOTR dwarves, being slowly overrun by endless waves of enemies. If I remeber correctly one of their main fortresses is virtually undersiege by a clan of night goblins.

So, no, they really aren't on the offensive, though they are able to send armies to their allies in times of great peril. This does show that they are on a pretty solid footing and it would take a disastrous defeat to really destabilize them.

They control a few levels of Karak Eight Peaks, might be the one you're talking about.

[KamikazeFTW]

Probably XD

[Reiksfart]

Uh oh, I'm in trouble..

Hey, I didn't write the rules! Unfortunately nothing the dwarfs have can compare to swordmasters, and Phoenix Guard are amazing with their 4+ ward save. Even High Elf Spears are like mini Elites compared to other races line troops. But don't worry, artillery and guns will even it out. I like dwarves more than high elves too.

Good to see you back. Both you and RedDwarf were good posters here and you are missed. CoW forum always seems so dead compared to some other mods, which is strange given warhammer's popularity. More regular guests should sign up and contribute.

[Bernardius]

intrestíng topic, im waiting to!

[Leonidas]

I actually think the modern Dwarfs are on an uptick. They are starting to retake Karak Eight Peaks by actually having a sustainable colony located in the outside world and they have cleared some of the Halls. In some of the Black Library novels they have retaken minor holdings and some minor Karaks. IIRC the official aftermath of Storm of Chaos in TT had them reclaim some more lands as well.

They will never be what they were before the Slaan caused the earthquakes and volcanoes that brought about the loss of so many holds but they are in better shape now than they have been in sometime. They definitely are in that gritty determined fight to stave off extinction but all in all they are actually starting to win some much needed breathing room and have retaken some of what they lost. As a big fan of Dwarfs I hope the next army book's lore will reflect this.

[LittleDwarf]

Ok, let me put this straight. Dwarfs are a dying race. There is nothing they can do about it. All they can - and will - do is die fighting.

I once did a summary of Hold's militaries, lemme copy it here:

"Dwarfs can't retake strongholds cause of this 50 000 [in a hold] able to fight only maybe 10 000 or less are in active duty, the rest are only called in time of emergency. Now imagine that you call this 50 000 to fight and go outside the hold. You leave the whole hold with just females, children and crippled. It's madness. In some of the olders armybooks, there were 'The Art of Warfare' told to king alrik ranulfsson by his father when he become king. It quite nicely decapits the dwarven art of war. They need to act quickly, very quickly, to return to the hold without leaving it defenseless for to long.


As for the Karak's inhabitants, numbers are as follows : (Dwarfs Stone and Steel supplement) [Army numbers are not official, they are based solely on my imagination/statistical thinking. The populations themselves are official though]

Karaz-a-Karak : 120 000 (was 350 000 during Golden Age) - probably around 15 000 active soldiers, 35 - 45 000 can be called upon to fight (well, it time of direct attack on the hold, and in case of breaking through the walls, number rises to nearly all the hold's population, including women but excluding children under 15 and crippled)

Vala Azrilungol/Karak Odro Karaz (Eight Peaks) : 5 000 [Belegar only controls the First Deep and is in state of constant siege] (was 300 000 in Golden Age) - most of them are warriors in constant duty, probably only 1 000 - 1 500 are settlers.

Zhufbar : 15 000 (was built for population of 100 000 but never reached it cause of erruption of War of Vengeance) - probably around 2 000 soldiers, additional 6 000 may be called to fight.

Barak Varr : 30 000 (was 90 000 during Golden Age) - probably around 4 000 soldiers, additional 12 000

Karak Azul : 40 000 ( 120 000 during Golden Age) - there the % amount of soldiers is probably greater than in other holds, cause it's the last of southern ones and in constant danger. Probably 6 000 - 7 000 with additional 17 000 - 19 000

Karak Kadrin : 50 000 (was 250 000 in Golden Age) - i don't know if this number include slayers who may not LIVE in the keep in the common sense - probably around 8 000 - 9 000 + slayers if not included, 20 000 may be called to fight if necesary.

Karak Hirn : Probably around 5 000-10 000 - probably like 500 - 1000 soldiers, may call upon additional 4 000

Karak Azgal (actually, Skalf's Hold above the Deeps) : 5 000 - 500-1000 soldiers, can call upon additional 1 000 if necesary.

I didn't counted the other Holds like Karak Izor, Karak Norn etc and Norscan holds which are quite in isolation, but if we count it down we have :

39 500 soldiers on active duty + other holds, together no more than 45 000 dwarfs. Little small for the numberless masses of greenskins, eh?

If you would mobilize the whole race, gather everyone that can fight, you'll have :

45 000 + 108500 + other holds, together rather no more than 180 000 - 200 000 - That's still rather small of an army of a WHOLE RACE, gathered in one place. I am not speaking about one nation, one race. It would be like all countries on the earth could only field 200 000 soldiers while using the last reserves and leaving their cities and coutries defenseless, with only women and children. Rather sad vision, eh? You would think : "Are they like... hm... dying out or something?" Answer is : Yes, sadly, they are.

As you can see... Each hold's population is merely a 1/3 of the Golden Age population, sometimes even less (Skalf's Hold, Karak Odro Karaz), and if you add lost holds, the biggest ones, like Karak Odro Karaz (that adds nearly 300 000 to the number of the dead!!!), you get the picture very well. Dwarfs ARE a dying race."

As for Karak Eight Peaks : even if the dwarfs would recapture it completely, which is unlikely, they just don't have enough settlers to settle it again. Same goes for the other strongholds. When you look upon the hold's populations it becomes clear that nearly 2/3 of a WHOLE RACE already died out. Karaz-a-Karak won't fall in this generation. Or in the next. Or probably it won't fall in the dozen next generations to come. But eventually it will - dwarfs are ultimately doomed to fail, they were already when the War of Vengeance broke out. They are going down. And deep down in their hearts they know it, they are just too proud to admit it. And hell, if they are going to extinct, they are going to try make some other races extinct as well before they do! And that's what I love about them.


-----

That's for start, I don't have time to write something properly now. Some problems in real life. Sorry. Will write more later.

[Reiksfart]

But eventually it will - dwarfs are ultimately doomed to fail, they were already when the War of Vengeance broke out.

Damn those effeminate lady men elves. If it wasn't for their martial prowess I'd kick their a$$es!

So Eight Peaks is constantly under siege? Is it night goblins and/or skaven who occupy the lower levels?

Would Eight Peaks and any other hold which is under siege from other levels (are there any others?) have a higher number of Ironbreakers, who are the first line of defense within the tunnel systems (right?).

Are the dwarf holds, even the small one's, rich compared to other races? i.e should dwarves not only be struggling with being outnumbered and constantly at war, but also struggle to pay the troops (in medieval 2 terms).


I will have loads of questions when I work on dwarves in my campaign submod. Will pm you soon. I want to implement them right, not only on the battlefield but campaign map also. RedDwarf's old submod (do you know where he is by the way?) is a very good start and I will be using some of his scripts as a base to work from.

One last question here; What are Dwarf Elders in CoW?

I can't find any info on them and for now have changed them into Master Engineers. Just need to add a wrench as main hand weapon, bags and backpack. Engineers can wear gromril armour, so they are perfect.

[LittleDwarf]

1. Damn those effeminate lady men elves. If it wasn't for their martial prowess I'd kick their a$$es!

2. So Eight Peaks is constantly under siege? Is it night goblins and/or skaven who occupy the lower levels?

3. Would Eight Peaks and any other hold which is under siege from other levels (are there any others?) have a higher number of Ironbreakers, who are the first line of defense within the tunnel systems (right?).

4. Are the dwarf holds, even the small one's, rich compared to other races? i.e should dwarves not only be struggling with being outnumbered and constantly at war, but also struggle to pay the troops (in medieval 2 terms).


I will have loads of questions when I work on dwarves in my campaign submod. Will pm you soon. I want to implement them right, not only on the battlefield but campaign map also. RedDwarf's old submod (do you know where he is by the way?) is a very good start and I will be using some of his scripts as a base to work from.

5. One last question here; What are Dwarf Elders in CoW?

I can't find any info on them and for now have changed them into Master Engineers. Just need to add a wrench as main hand weapon, bags and backpack. Engineers can wear gromril armour, so they are perfect.

Let me divide your post into a couple of sections (I added numbers to make it clearer) so i can rely to all questions with ease while being organised and stuff. Like a dwarf, you know.

1. Martial prowess, my ass. Let me put it simply - despite what tabletop tells you, elves are PERFECTLY EQUAL to dwarfs in terms of warfare, and even slightly underpowered. They lost, after all. And they were in defense, which is always easier than attacking. Actually, I find in funny that at the beginning of the War, both races thought theirs to be the higher race, and thought they would crush their "uncivilized" opponent with ease. And this "ease" turned out to be 500 years of one of the most bloody wars in the history of warhammer. Lemme quote some words that describe the relations and opinions of two races about each other :

"The Dwarfs were quite unlike any foe the Elves had ever faced, refusing to give up even when doom or defeat was assured for them. Unlike the Chaos hordes of Aenarion's time, the Dawi used advanced military strategy and were highly disciplined. Dwarfs had been surprised at the strength of the High Elf forces, judging the strength of the Asur by the least of their provinces, but in true Dwarf fashion, were not about to admit a mistake. The Dwarfs looked at row upon row of shining Elven warriors who stood beside powerful Archmages and Dragon Princes, at the time riding actual dragons. The war became a stalemate, the mountain fortresses of the Dwarfs were unassailable and the Dawi laid siege to Tor Alessi thirteen times, but could not seem to penetrate the city's walls."


2. As for Vala-azrilungol (also called Karak Odro Karaz, or in the manling's language Karak Eight Peaks) - it is in state of constant siege from the very time Belegar recaptured the First Deep. Their main enemy are : Night Goblins, lead by fearsome Skarsnik, one of the best leaders the goblins had in centuries (most notably he forced dwarf armies to retread in the Battle of the East Gate) and Skaven. Skaven in particular have a quite big settlement in the Deeps, it's called City of Pillars if I remember correctly.

3. Basicly EVERY hold is being attacked from time to time. Skavens have tunnels under every of the major Holds, notably under Zhufbar, as they control Karak Varn. So, Vala-azrilungol definitely has a lot of Ironbreakers. Zhufbar can also posses formidable amount for such a small stronghold, as it lies close to Karak Varn and the Black Water, where there once was a gromril mine.

4. Well... in their own eyes, dwarfs posses but a fraction of their former wealth. But they are FRICCKIN' rich compared to other races. Let me just say, that dwarven coins are usually a lot more worthy than manling's coins, just because they are made from pure metals : gold, silver and copper, not from alloys of some kinds. There's even a dwarf saying that goes "Manling coins are like their words - never trust them. Use your weighing scales and keep your axe handy!"

That's not only because they are the best miners and mine countless treasures from benath the earth. That's - sadly - because they are so few that they simply have too much things to effectively use them. What I mean... for example, in the lost hold of Karak Dum, EVERY of the King's Guards wore runic armour and wielded rune-weapons of old. Just because so many heroes died in the defense of the city. Dwarfs have certainly more gold than manpower - that's why they, though with hesitation, sometimes employ mercenaries to fight - in was for example featured in warhammer fantasy roleplay adventure.

5. To put it simply - they are just old dwarfs, masters of their craft (which, in case of warrior clans, is war). But it's far more complicated for the dwarfs.

"When they raech 150 yers old, a Dwarf becomes an Elder of his clan. All Elders become part of the Elder council by virtue of age, wisdom and lenght of the beard (or hair in the case of Dwarf woman). The Council fonsiders any matters that directly impacts the clan and it's interests. In some clans the Council is empowered to decide for the clan, in others - particularly in the Warrior clans - the Councul may do no more than reccomend a course of action to the head of the clan. Dwarfs remain clan elders for the rest of their lives"

I do not really know why they have pistols though. Maybe they are just Elders from Engineering clans.


If something is not clear - please specify and I'll try to tell you more. Also, please remember that english isn't my first language, so I tend to make a lot of mistakes. If you have any other questions, I'll gladly answer them if i have the time.

[Ultra123]

now what a shame they dont live in 2012 britain, here our chancellor would simply reduced txes on every child you have by 0.5678345% and give you a free house along with all bills paid.


popultaion explosion imminent.

[Lord Baal]

I think you English is impeccable. Although is not my mother language either. Either way all this information is fascinating. May I ask, why they don't make up their numbers by reproducing more, it's complicated or it take even longer than humans?

[LittleDwarf]

First of all: too much of them already died to ever make up for it.

Secondly - dwarf courtship rituals are complicated and they take the whole matter very seriously - while it's every dwarf's duty to replenish their race's dwindling numbers, none of them will behave in the manner humans would in such situation. To put in bluntly: they can not just f$@ck all the time, without all the necessary traditions and stuff.

Thirdly - there is this strange phenomena, which really doesn't make a lot of sense but is also present in LOTR for example, and other fantasy. Dwarf community isn't 50/50 male/female but more like 3/1. Don't ask me why, it doesn't make sense to me as well. But such it is, and it makes reproduction a whole lot more difficult than with humans.

Couple of quotes again:

"Though not a subject discussed in polite company, Dwarf reproduction is similar to that of humans. Where the two races differ is in their attitude. The Dwarfs see themselves as more pragmatic and civilized in this respect. Male dwarfs outnumber the females by more than three to one: If Dwafs approached the act off preproduction with what they see as the obsessive fervour of humans, they would battle one another for the few available females, and the race would probably be decimated. Instead, a complicated rystem of etuqette and traditional courtship rites have grown.

The fertility of Dwarfs is low compared to humans and Halflings. Even though they are longer lived, Dwarf woman rarely have more than four children over their lifetimes. The lenght and progression of a dwarf pregnancy is the same as it is for humans. Single births are norm, it is exceedingly rare for twins to be bron. When it does happen, it is considered a momentious omen. The Dwarfs celebrate the twin births throught the Hold or settlement. The festives include a feast to give thanks to the clan's ancestors, and especially Valaya, for the honor bestowed upon the mother of the twins."

[Lord Baal]

Oh interesting. So is not more time, is a social pressure to avoid civil wars over womans that make this speeding spiral. Maybe in the old age they were a little too much Spartan and appreciated more males child's over females and by some twisted biological thing they became more prone to have males? It's weird, specially to a civilization in war that only employ males as warriors to have a male population outnumbering the female.

Also is the biological fact that since they live a lot longer (Who long?) it's natural to them to reproduce at lower phases, either way the specie would fill up the ecosystem and deplete its resources, at least this is what happen on nature. The bigger and longevity animals tends to reproduce slower that the smaller and short lived ones.