Repressive tactics and why they're effective

[RusskiSoldat]

I don't know how many of you know this, but I go to Stuyvesant High School, a highly selective one that's meant to be for the intellegent. I'm not trying to brag, but to give you background.
Anyway, around 30-40% of the kids there actively partake in illegal activities, the one under the spotlight being drugs.
At first, they introduced scanners and ID cards to keep us from exiting and entering the building at will, so as to know whether we're inside or out.
There was a huge outcry along the lines of that our rights are taken away.
And yet the huge cutting problem has severely diminished solely because of this.
Then, about two weeks ago, they started a crack down on dealers.
Out of the tens (and possibly hundreds) of dealers in the school, around 30 were found to have drugs (as a result of random searches and intimidating people to act as informers) and arrested. Now, it's damn near impossible to get anything (not that I would want to *cough*terms of service*cough*) as almost all the major dealers were arrested, the remaining major ones and almost all the minor ones are now dry, and only one girl deals now.
And at that it's just pot and in quite small quantities.
Considering the school used to be highly liberal and it was easy to get away with many things, behavior was often horrible in all aspects.
A friend of mine runs a bar from his locker, in fact.
Just got a "shipment" of absinthe(!!!) in yesterday at that.
People always come to class drunk, high, or otherwise not caring.
Education wise, this is because there are (IMO) two types of kids there (with some exceptions):
The hard working ones (almost all Asians and jews in this group) who are not too bright (although above average) but work their asses off.
Then there are the smart ones (let me be so unhumble as to include myself in this group) who get in easy, never cracked a book before getting into the school and are now always stressed out or burnt out.
The program is just too challenging in some aspects and too easy in others.
As a result, cutting and drug abuse are rampant.
But now, with all the restrictive measures they implemented, drugs are almost impossible to find, the students are largely sober in class, and everyone's afraid of violating the rules.
It's a great petry dish example of how given a liberal, disorderly community, some restrictions and measures will do wonders as to reducing both crime and delinquency in all forms.
While these rules have affected me in a large way, they are a mere annoyance because they only apply to the school.
Plenty of dealers hanging out just outside of the school, on a block where cop cars constantly circle.
No one just gives a damn.
From what I see of society, there are incentives and anti incentives for everything.
The greatest universal anti incentive is fear, and as such the masses can easily be controlled through fear alone.
Actual repressive measures are not necessary, just periodical shows of force are enough.
I greatly applaud the efforts of the Board of Education in instilling at least some discipline into my school.
I'd like to have your opinions on this.
I know most of you will scream about one right or another being violated, but you can't argue with results, now can ya?

[Rhinosaur]

You may be partially right, but human ingenuity is enough to void many shows of force, and individual will can be greater than any "anti incentive".

[RusskiSoldat]

And as such, punishment is to be administered to those few into whom fear is not instilled.

[Rhinosaur]

And at first that might be enough, but over time all tactics to counter the demand for the prohibited thing or activity will fail. It's been proven many times throughout history that people will subvert even the most well thought out, harshest, and most repressive methods. It's one thing to say that you'd administer punishment to those that violate the law and yet another to catch them violating it. The problem with repression is that it inevitably leads to corruption and subversion, i.e. oppressors will be corrupted and oppressed will subvert ruling authority.

[bdh]

And at first that might be enough, but over time all tactics to counter the demand for the prohibited thing or activity will fail. It's been proven many times throughout history that people will subvert even the most well thought out, harshest, and most repressive methods. It's one thing to say that you'd administer punishment to those that violate the law and yet another to catch them violating it. The problem with repression is that it inevitably leads to corruption and subversion, i.e. oppressors will be corrupted and oppressed will subvert ruling authority.

That is absolutely true, but that only occurs when people feel they can manipulate the system. If one can create genuine 'fear' and keep people on edge, its effective. The key is to keep everything dynamic and changing. Once things become constant, they tend to slowly give way over time as people begin to feel comfortable within their environment and adapt.

[hsimoorb]

Repression ended the drug craze at your school, it did not create an atmosphere of acedemics, at least not directly. You can force people to stop doing drugs if you try hard enough, though you can't neccesarily make them give a damn about classes.

[General Sun]

RusskiSoldat, you go to Stuy? So do I.... Errr, PM me what grade your in and what classes you have... If not your name...

[Kara Kolyo]

Russki you might be partially right but even the reppressions forced by the guy in your avatar couldn't stop all the crime in USSR and noone can say that he didn't try. the question is in what extend the oppression works and are there better ways to deal with crime

[humvee2800]

yeah russki? not too be demanding but i do wonder why you have a picture of a mass murderer in your avatar

anyway , repressive tactics can be very effective bu8t over time they become dangerous too the user. Itll stop the dumb and the fearfull but it also cultivates those smart enoiugh too dodge it and eventualy those smart ones will bite you in the ass.

Sort of like when people use anti biotics, itll work for a long time but eventually, the anti biotics cultivate a new form of the virus and "boom" youve got a potential outbreak



Also, i would like too point out that any qeustion about stalins wrongdoings directed too you results ina stiff "i refuse too reply"

Just TRY and search google for a biography on stalin

[RusskiSoldat]

Repression ended the drug craze at your school, it did not create an atmosphere of acedemics, at least not directly. You can force people to stop doing drugs if you try hard enough, though you can't neccesarily make them give a damn about classes.

And yet, it certainly helps.
If all of society took on a more authoritarian stance, we would have far less problems like this.

RusskiSoldat, you go to Stuy? So do I.... Errr, PM me what grade your in and what classes you have... If not your name...

How about next school year?
We have 3 days of school left, and I have plans for all of them.

Russki you might be partially right but even the reppressions forced by the guy in your avatar couldn't stop all the crime in USSR and noone can say that he didn't try. the question is in what extend the oppression works and are there better ways to deal with crime

All the crime can never be stopped.
And yet he stopped damn near all of it.

yeah russki? not too be demanding but i do wonder why you have a picture of a mass murderer in your avatar

Because I believe he was a great leader (as do 42% of Russians).

anyway , repressive tactics can be very effective bu8t over time they become dangerous too the user. Itll stop the dumb and the fearfull but it also cultivates those smart enoiugh too dodge it and eventualy those smart ones will bite you in the ass.

The smart ones will try to get higher up where they are allowed more.
Some corruption must exist at the top, but it must be kept in check.

Sort of like when people use anti biotics, itll work for a long time but eventually, the anti biotics cultivate a new form of the virus and "boom" youve got a potential outbreak

But if you use them periodically to treat an outbreak, you won't develop immunity for a long time.

[Rhinosaur]

My entire point is that you can't even force people to stop using drugs. Russki himself insinuated that the methods used thus far haven't eliminated the drug "problem", only temporarily slowed its consumption. As for bdh, you know as much as our political leaders would like that, there can never be a perpetual state of fear because men by their nature will stop being afraid of anything after awhile. The perfect example of that is the movie "Grizzly Man". Human biengs have evolved an instinctual fear of bears over countless millenia as prey for them, end then one crazy guy spends his life (and death) with the very animals that ate many a person. On top of that, his girlfriend died trying to defend him from the very animals that she hated and feared.

[bdh]

My entire point is that you can't even force people to stop using drugs. Russki himself insinuated that the methods used thus far haven't eliminated the drug "problem", only temporarily slowed its consumption. As for bdh, you know as much as our political leaders would like that, there can never be a perpetual state of fear because men by their nature will stop being afraid of anything after awhile. The perfect example of that is the movie "Grizzly Man". Human biengs have evolved an instinctual fear of bears over countless millenia as prey for them, end then one crazy guy spends his life (and death) with the very animals that ate many a person. On top of that, his girlfriend died trying to defend him from the very animals that she hated and feared.

Men will only cease to be afraid of something that does not change. One constant that man will always fear is the unknown. If you keep things changing, you keep people in the dark. They are unable to anticipate anything because they have no point of reference. Therefore, 'change' is also a constant that man will always be afraid of.
After all, grizzly bears isn't a perfect example because grizzly bears aren't that dynamic. A grizzly bear is a grizzly bear and will always be a grizzly bear. If such a creature sprouted wings one day and then turned invisible the next, I would be afraid of grizzly bears.

Sort of like when people use anti biotics, itll work for a long time but eventually, the anti biotics cultivate a new form of the virus and "boom" youve got a potential outbreak

Thats why doctors never contintually use the same anti-biotic. The new tactic is to change the anti-biotics a person uses if they have to use them for a long period of time. If you keep changing them, the viruses just won't be able to adapt.

But if you use them periodically to treat an outbreak, you won't develop immunity for a long time.

That is also perfectly applicable as well. Even more so since many people often respond more to random negative reinforcement than continutal negative reinforcement.

After all, what caused the sudden respect to the rules? Was it the crackdown, or was it that no one expected a crackdown? The school culture has changed and people don't know what to do yet. Give time though, if things don't change again, they will figure something out.

[Evariste]

What rights are being violated? You are a minor that is going to a, assumedly very expensive private school. You have very little rights outside of choosing to enroll somewhere else, which I could see many of these students doing. That's the great part about living in a capitalistic society: choice. If a family doesn't like the school's tactics, then they can go to a different school. Eventually, if enough families do this, the school starts to lose money, and has to make some sort of change to lure them back, or to reel in other perspective clients. I applaud these school officials for protecting their investment, but I'm also glad that I didn't have to go to a high school like that.

[humvee2800]

I have a qeustion then, why do repressive societys always fall by a peoples revolt.

also on my last post please answer all my qeustions not just my analogy

[bdh]

I have a qeustion then, why do repressive societys always fall by a massive peoples revolt.

Actually, what Evarasite stated is, in fact, a massive peoples revolt. If people do not like the tactics they will leave. That is the equivalent of the massive peoples revolt. Then, of course, the responsibility falls on the parents. The problem there is that the parents are by no means a 'minority' they can't exactly be overthrown by their own children.

[humvee2800]

i wasnt replying too Evarasite

[bdh]

i wasnt replying too everist Evarasite

I know, but it is applicable to your question, at least in the instance of the School Education.

[jw1089]

Spam removal complete - Keystone Soldier

[bdh]

I suppose it depends on the repression and to what extent.

Undoubtedly, it is very difficult to make generalizations, especially on such a subject. It gets even more complicated when determine whether or not it is just.

Spam removal complete - Keystone Soldier

Is that the first time you used that smiley? Its germane, very very germane

[Rhinosaur]

To bdh: perhaps bears weren't the best example at what I'm saying but I'll take another stab at it. If a man can overcome a fear completely that isn't just in his conscious mind, or even his sub-conscious, but even his very instincts as an animal, what chance does an authoritarian state have of disrupting the free will of its participants. Besides that, you know as well as I do no state can put it's citizens in a perpetual state of fear, no matter how thorough it is, some people are without fear or rationality.

To Russkisoldat: I absolutly agree with you that Stalin was the most capable Soviet leader, and that he led the USSR to it's greatest point in history, but no man can hold back the tide, and eventually the Soviet Union met the only end that it could have. Soviet Socialism was a legitimate response to the inhumane treatment of the Tzars, but the problem with it is that it assumes the ultimate goodness of humanity and it's ability to govern itself fairly with a monopoly of power.