Roman Onagers of Doom

[Captain Frye]

Hi!

Are you going to nerf the onagers in the next version? At the moment they are more accurate and devastating than british artillery in Normandy lol. I can have 2 onager-units in my army and win every battle, no matter how strong the enemy forces are.

[Joar]

Are you going to nerf the onagers in the next version?

Short answer: yes!

[Captain Frye]

Where can I fix their accuracy myself?

[Captain Frye]

+ The Siege Tower Ballista of doom. I want to nerf them too.

[Gäiten]

Maybe there will be no artillery left in V8 ...

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

Well the Scorpio is an incredibly accurate weapon i can say that from personal experience. Just as accurate as a modern rifle in some cases.

The Onager and Scorpio should be the only 2 artillery as the others were impractical or not historically accurate. There is no "Heavy Onager" and the Stone-thrower variant of the Ballista fell out of use in the 2nd or 3rd century AD. The Polybolos has been reconstructed and been proven to be too problematic for effective use on the battlefield; it jammed a lot.

[Diocle]

One of my RTW dreams was to see in game the true Roman Onagres and not the strange machines we can see in RTW , but no one was interested in the actual appearance of these deadly machine, this is not a request o.c., it is only a wistful remembrance of an old dream.

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

One of my RTW dreams was to see in game the true Roman Onagres and not the strange machines we can see in RTW , but no one was interested in the actual appearance of these deadly machine, this is not a request o.c., it is only a wistful remembrance of an old dream.

Actually historically accurate artillery has been on my IBUR Bucket List. I can have strategos work on a model gimme a minute.

[Diocletianus]

The onagers were the most effectives killings machines in IBFD... They devastated massives stacks of sassanids for me.

[demagogos nicator]

One of my RTW dreams was to see in game the true Roman Onagres and not the strange machines we can see in RTW , but no one was interested in the actual appearance of these deadly machine, this is not a request o.c., it is only a wistful remembrance of an old dream.

Actually florin80 used the revorked version of Caius Britanicus catapults for FoR 1.6. Although, they still do not look 100% historical they look much better then vanila onagers used in IBFD7. IIRC florin80 also reduced their range to half.

Here is the link to the thread where this was alredy discuted, it also contains pictures of FoR onagers:
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=475777

[Knonfoda]

It is also a misconception that catapults (ie onagers and stone throwers) fell out of use in the 2nd/3rd century. In fact, Ammianus clearly states they were in use during the siege of Maiogamalcha, at around 363 AD.

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

It is also a misconception that catapults (ie onagers and stone throwers) fell out of use in the 2nd/3rd century. In fact, Ammianus clearly states they were in use during the siege of Maiogamalcha, at around 363 AD.

I said the big ballista-style ones fell out of use we know the onager was still in use.

[Diocle]

MMFA I must spread more reputation before I can give you what you deserve!!! But you have all my love!!!!!

Thanks also to Demagogo! and +rep!

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

I shot off a message, I'll see what strategos can come up with he's been waiting on me to give him some unit models.

I'd be happy to share them Joar, but I must inform you I will only be making models for the Scorpio and the Onager.

I dont' know if there are any other seige weapons in use at that time. But i can go as far as to say that by the 5th century the only siege equipment the barbarians had was ladders, and the huns managed to develop the battering ram after seeing west roman tactics at Tolosa in 439.

[Deutschland]

Didnt the Huns also have hijacked or bribes Roman onager crews? I remeber reading they used these when destroying Roman forts in moesia...

[Gäiten]

Didnt the Huns also have hijacked or bribes Roman onager crews? I remeber reading they used these when destroying Roman forts in moesia...

Correct, the Huns used them, however, I believe they were not hijacked rather they, as specialists, were wooed away by promises of getting (better) paid. and the Hunnic empire looked very likely to replace the Romans as primary European power at that moment.

Furthermore, we have many example that steppe nomad people were capable of constructing and using their own sets of sophisticated siege equipment (among others see Avars and their siege of Constantinople in 626AD) .

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

The Huns introduced that technology to that area from contact with the Romans of the West. They had to recruit locals to field their armies, and those locals carried the t4echnology over to their recruitment by the Avars.

Also Chivalry TW has a good Onager model gonna check it out later.

[Knonfoda]

MMFA, do you have any particular sources that state the 'big ballista style ones' fell out of use? From the descriptions I've seen, it seems hard to differentiate the ballistae used in the later roman empire. All they seem to state was the mode of operation (ie twisted horse hair strung by torsion arching two 'arms' back, to hurl rocks) but they don't seem to indicate the size. I am basing this on Ammianus.

Thanks.

[Diocle]

***

Knon, Ammianus is the source you are looking for!

'RES GESTAE XXIII'

I think that it's all a matter of words and their changed use/meaning in the Late Antiquity, respect to the times of Vitruvius. You o.c. knows that the machine that Ammianus describes in book XXIII - 4, using the name 'Ballista', launches heavy wooden/iron darts and it descends from the machines that Vitruvius calls 'Cheiroballistae', the heavy Ballistae of Vitruvius launched heavy stone projectiles! The same name indicate two different machines!

Ammianus - "Res Gestae" - Book XXIII (4, 1 -7):

1. 'Re ipsa admoneor, breviter, quantum mediocre potest ingenium haec instrumentorum genera ignorantibus circumscripte monstrare; et ballistae figura docebitur prima.
2. ferrum inter axiculos duos firmum conpaginatur et vastum in modum regulae maioris extentum, cuius ex volumine tereti, quod in medio pars polita conponit, quadratus eminet stilus extentius, recto canalis angusti meatu cavatus, et hac multiplici chorda nervorum tortilium inligatus: eique cochleae duae ligneae coniunguntur aptissime, quarum prope unam adsistit artifex contemplabilis et subtiliter adponit in temonis cavamine sagittam ligneam spiculo maiore conglutinatam, hocque facto hinc inde validi iuvenes versant agiliter rotabilem flexum.
3. cum ad extremitatem nervorum acumen venerit summum, percita interno pulsu a ballista ex oculis avolat, interdum nimio ardore scintillans, et evenit saepius, ut antequam telum cernatur, dolor letale vulnus agnoscat'.

English:


1.' I am reminded by the circumstances to explain instruments of this kind briefly, as far as my moderate talent may enable me to do, and first I will set forth the figure of the balista.
2. Between two axletrees a strong large iron bar is fastened, like a great rule, round, smooth, and polished; from its centre a square pin projects for some distance, hollowed out into a narrow channel down its middle. This is bound by many ligatures of twisted cords: to it two wooden nuts are accurately fitted, by one of which stands a skilful man who works it, and who fits neatly into the hollow of the pin or pole a wooden arrow with a large point; and as soon as this is done, some strong young men rapidly turn a wheel.
3. When the tip of the arrow's point has reached the extremity of the cords, the arrow is struck by a blow from the balista, and flies out of sight; sometimes even giving forth sparks by its great velocity, and it often happens that before the arrow is seen, it has given a fatal wound.'

This is your 'Ballista' (not the ancient heavy stone trower of Vitruvius), as it is described by Ammianus, the terms are those used by Ammianus:

Now the machine which Ammianus calls 'Scorpio' telling us that in the ancient times it was called 'Onagro', actually this is the machine that launches the heavy stone projectiles:

Ammianus - "Res Gestae" - Book XXIII (4, 4-7):

4. 'Scorpionis autem, quem appellant nunc Onagrum, huius modi forma est. dolantur axes duo quernei vel ilicei, curvanturque mediocriter, ut prominere videantur in gibbas, hique in modum serratoriae machinae conectuntur ex utroque latere patentius perforati, quos inter per cavernas funes conligantur robusti, conpagem, ne dissiliat, continentes.
5. ab hac medietate restium ligneus stilus exsurgens obliquus et in modum iugalis temonis erectus ita nervorum nodulis inplicatur, ut altius tolli possit et inclinari, summitatique eius unci ferrei copulantur, e quibus pendet stuppea vel ferrea funda, cui ligno fulmentum prosternitur ingens, cilicium paleis confertum minutis, validis nexibus inligatum et locatum super congestos cespites vel latericios aggeres. nam muro saxeo huius modi moles inposita disiectat quidquid invenerit subter concussione violenta, non pondere.
6. cum igitur ad concertationem ventum fuerit, lapide rotundo fundae inposito, quaterni altrinsecus iuvenes repagula, quibus incorporati sunt funes, explicantes, retrorsus stilum paene supinum inclinant: itaque demum sublimis adstans magister claustrum, quod totius operis continet vincula, reserat malleo forti perculsum, unde absolutus ictu volucri stilus et mollitudine offensus cilicii saxum contorquet, quicquid incurrerit conlisurum.
7. et tormentum quidem appellatur ex eo quod omnis explicatio torquetur, scorpio autem quoniam aculeum desuper habet erectum, cui etiam onagri vocabulum indidit aetas novella ea re, quod asini feri eum venatibus agitantur, ita eminus lapides post terga calcitrando emittunt, ut perforent pectora sequentium aut perfractis ossibus capita ipsa displodant'

English:

4. The scorpion, which they now call the wild-ass(Onagro), is in the following form. Two axletrees of oak or box are cut out and slightly curved, so as to project in small humps, and they are fastened together like a sawing machine, being perforated with large holes on each side; and between them, through the holes, strong ropes are fastened to hold the two parts together, and prevent them from starting asunder.
5. From these ropes thus placed a wooden pin rises in an oblique direction, like the pole of a chariot, and it is so fastened by knotted cords as to be raised or depressed at pleasure. To its top, iron hooks are fastened, from which a sling hangs, made of either cord or iron. Below the pin is a large sack filled with shreds of cloth, fastened by strong ties, and resting on heaped-up turves or mounds of brick. For an engine of this kind, if placed on a stone wall, would destroy whatever was beneath it, not by its weight, but by the violence of its concussion.
6. Then when a conflict begins, a round stone is placed on the sling, and four youths on each side, loosening the bar to which the cords are attached, bend the pin back till it points almost upright into the air; then the worker of the engine, standing by on high ground, frees by a blow with the heavy hammer the bolt which keeps down the whole engine; and the pin being set free by the stroke, and striking against the mass of cloth shreds, hurls forth the stone with such force as to crush whatever it strikes.
7. This engine is called a tormentum, because all its parts are twisted (torquetur); or a scorpion, because it has an erect sting; but modern times have given it the name of the wild-ass, because when wild asses are hunted, they throw the stones behind them by their kicks so as to pierce the chests of those who pursue them, or to fracture their skulls.


Now this is the heavy stone trower, the 'Scorpio' described by Ammianus, that is the old 'Onagro', the words are those used by Ammianus:

.

This is the machine that MMFA & C. are building and/or putting in game for us!!!

.....or at least this is only my ancient dream....

.

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

I will try to get access to the onager model, and the scorpio model you mentioned above (Ammianus calls it a ballista but it is still properly a scorpio) I will have to have made. There is no eveidence i can find that the original Ballistae were used, nor can i find any evidence that the Romans ever used the polybolos. Ergo they should be removed entirely from the game. The Sassies used a Mangonel or Onager as far as i know. And the Huns eventually developed the technology of Onagers and BAttering Rams.

I will be happy to share these models once i get permissions.