Vince Cables little Red Book

[Sharpe's Company]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-17292918
I was amazed last night when I heard Tim Montgomerie, a leading grassroots campaigner for the Conservative Party, endorse Vince Cables 'mansion tax'. This outrageous proposal will go against everything that we hold dear in the United Kingdom and will jeopardise the rights of Private Property, as how can you tax privately owned land in a free society? Doesn't this imply that your own property is not actually yours but owned by the state, and therefore the state can freely tax you on it?

This nonesense if given the go ahead will lead to all private homes being taxed on a yearly basis and will lead to more people selling their property to mega rich property developers and could pave a way forward for Britain to become more like a european country that prefers to rent property rather than to own.

An Englishman's Home is his Castle, is what I was brought up to believe, and instead of the Working Class backing this tax, I think the opposite will ring true because we don't want to become tenants in our own private homes. This has all the hallmarks of the Soviet Union.

If the big wigs in the Tory Party back this then I can see a major split in their Party, and its no shock that Labour are backing this, they would tax everyone's home if they could and giving them this inch will give them the excuse to take the mile, to taxing all private property.

[Thorn777]

yes more VAT instead. thats entirely british

[Sharpe's Company]

The supposed fairness of a mansion tax no doubt has its roots in the erroneous philosophy of the American political economist Henry George. Georgists believe that people are entitled to the fruits of their labours but that they are not entitled to own original factors of production – land – which is considered to be owned by society in the person of the state.


The Georgists’ solution is a tax on the value of land itself to prevent private owners from gaining a profit by merely owning it. That tax would of course distort the market for real estate, arguably producing chaos (or perhaps worse chaos than we have).


Georgism is an old error, refuted many times, which seems never to die. If you cannot obtain property in land (the original factors of production), you cannot obtain property in the fruits of your labour. Those who want a full refutation can find it in, for example, Rothbard’s treatise Man, Economy and State (PDF) or in this essay. I’m sure there are other sources.


A mansion tax, indeed any wealth tax, would be an arbitrary, unjust and counterproductive tax on success and prudence. It would render secure householders insecure. It is based on the erroneous notion of comprehensive communal entitlement to land. It would introduce further discoordination and uncertainty into real estate markets.


Such taxes should certainly be opposed.
http://www.stevebaker.info/2012/03/mansion-tax/

Tories are kicking at this, will Scameron go against his party again?

[Tim_Ward]

This outrageous proposal will go against everything that we hold dear in the United Kingdom and will jeopardise the rights of Private Property, as how can you tax privately owned land in a free society? Doesn't this imply that your own property is not actually yours but owned by the state, and therefore the state can freely tax you on it?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_tax

[Sharpe's Company]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_tax

Did you read it?

Council Tax is the system of local taxation used in England,[1] Scotland[2] and Wales[3] to part fund the services provided by local government

This is a tax on private property, all homes have to pay council tax, even if you rent.

And what are you saying, we need a new tax to cover the wages of binmen now?

It's not the binmen who have given this country a shortfall in it's expenditure, lets cut our foregin aid budget or withdraw from the eu if we want to save money, instead of more taxes.

[Bobz]

How is this any different to Council Tax?

Edit: Damn ninjad!

[Thorn777]

because it targets castles and lords. taxing castles and lords is not only communist but also anti british

[Thorn777]

how much do you think the british can save that way sharpe?

[Tim_Ward]

how much do you think the british can save that way sharpe?

About £20-30 billion or something like that.

[Tim_Ward]

No, I was merely demonstrating the absurdity of your outraged butthurt over the very idea of a tax on property and how its antithetical to everything Britain stands for (or something) by pointing out that we do already have such a tax.

[Sharpe's Company]

No, I was merely demonstrating the absurdity of your outraged butthurt over the very idea of a tax on property and how its antithetical to everything Britain stands for (or something) by pointing out that we do already have such a tax.

No we don't, council tax pays for local council services, it doesn't go to central government to fund foregin aid.

how much do you think the british can save that way sharpe?

EU is around £40m a day and the aid is 1.8% of annual budget

[Thorn777]

About £20-30 billion or something like that.

No we don't, council tax pays for local council services, it doesn't go to central government to fund foregin aid.



EU is around £40m a day and the aid is 1.8% of annual budget

Right. I googled and found the most different numbers on UK news outlets. But even they didnt get those numbers, which are also twice the contributions Germany pays and so thats hard to believe.

Sadly I even find this 6.27 billion much more trusthworthy. Takes into account the UK's little extra (rebate)as well.

[Tim_Ward]

Right. I googled and found the most different numbers on UK news outlets. But even they didnt get those numbers, which are also twice the contributions Germany pays and so thats hard to believe.

Sadly I even find this 6.27 billion much more trusthworthy. Takes into account the UK's little extra (rebate)as well.

I was including foreign aid.

[Sharpe's Company]

Right. I googled and found the most different numbers on UK news outlets. But even they didnt get those numbers, which are also twice the contributions Germany pays and so thats hard to believe.

Sadly I even find this 6.27 billion much more trusthworthy. Takes into account the UK's little extra (rebate)as well.

And we care what Germany pays?

Anyhow this topic is about the red take over of the UK, I think you germans know a lot about that.

[Tim_Ward]

Excuse me, in the OP you said that the very idea of a tax on property was despicable and tyrannical. You said it jeopardized the rights of private property. You said it was incompatible with living in a free society.

There was none of this "oh it doesn't count if it goes to local government" or "i only hate it because some the money goes to foreigners". We're still on page one here, all of that is written on the very same page. All you have to do to read it is scroll up. You could at least wait until page 2 before you start back peddling.

[Sharpe's Company]

Excuse me, in the OP you said that the very idea of a tax on property was despicable and tyrannical. You said it jeopardized the rights of private property. You said it was incompatible with living in a free society.

There was none of this "oh it doesn't count if it goes to local government" or "i only hate it because some the money goes to foreigners". We're still on page one here, all of that is written on the very same page. All you have to do to read it is scroll up. You could at least wait until page 2 before you start back peddling.

No, I think you're missing the point, Council tax picks up your rubbish, it cleans the streets, this tax does not go to local government and will not provide any services because the money raised will be so small to make a difference.

This tax only picks on private owners. Like I already said if you rent a home you still have to pay council tax, if you rent a mansion house you will not have to pay either because the owner pays the bill. This tax goes against everything this country has ever stood for, taxing private property owners, it means the state owns your home.

And what is your opinion, you just want to play devils advocate without stating your own opinion, well we have enough of that around here, so spit it out, are you for this tax or not?

[Tim_Ward]

No, I think you're missing the point, Council tax picks up your rubbish, it cleans the streets, this tax does not go to local government and will not provide any services because the money raised will be so small to make a difference.

That was only 'the point' after two people pointed out we already have a tax on property in this country. Before that it was 'property tax = teh evilz!'

This tax only picks on private owners. Like I already said if you rent a home you still have to pay council tax, if you rent a mansion house you will not have to pay either because the owner pays the bill.

What difference does that make? The fact the council tax is not exclusively aimed at property means it somehow doesn't count?

This tax goes against everything this country has ever stood for,

Yeah, right. You're living in a country that has, in the past, had taxes based on both roofs and windows.

taxing private property owners, it means the state owns your home.

Just run the logic of that one by my again, will you? If they own it, why do they need to tax it exactly?

And what is your opinion, you just want to play devils advocate without stating your own opinion, well we have enough of that around here, so spit it out, are you for this tax or not?

Depends on the implementation, really. The main potential issue I see with it is that a lot of people who currently own and maintain England's great houses don't actually have all that much money. There's a reason many places like Lowther Castle lack a roof or windows - they were removed by the owners to avoid the above mentioned property taxes which you are so utterly convinced are against everything Britain has ever stood for, because they couldn't afford to pay them. So hitting them with a huge lump-sum bill based on the value of their property that they literally wouldn't be able to afford doesn't strike me as a very great idea.

If they can avoid situations like that I have no problem with it in principle.

[Sharpe's Company]

That was only 'the point' after two people pointed out we already have a tax on property in this country. Before that it was 'property tax = teh evilz!'

Are you mad, council tax isn't a tax on property, do I have to spell it out again, it is a tax that cleans the streets, it is a tax aimed at people, not property, it provides us a service.

What difference does that make? The fact the council tax is not exclusively aimed at property means it somehow doesn't count?

Like above, council tax isn't a tax on property.

Yeah, right. You're living in a country that has, in the past, had taxes based on both roofs and windows.

Because Glass used to be taxed highly, I think you'll find, it wasn't a tax on windows, but glass. Never heard of the roof one before.

Just run the logic of that one by my again, will you? If they own it, why do they need to tax it exactly?

Maybe you'd like to live in Soviet Union, you know no private property.

Depends on the implementation, really. The main potential issue I see with it is that a lot of people who currently own and maintain England's great houses don't actually have all that much money. There's a reason many places like Lowther Castle lack a roof or windows - they were removed by the owners to avoid the above mentioned property taxes which you are so utterly convinced are against everything Britain has ever stood for, because they couldn't afford to pay them. So hitting them with a huge lump-sum bill based on the value of their property that they literally wouldn't be able to afford doesn't strike me as a very great idea.

So you're against it because of the rich not being able to pay it?

If they can avoid situations like that I have no problem with it in principle.

And when Labour come to power and roll this out to the masses you'll still be happy?

We're taxed too much as it is.

[Bobz]

Are you mad, council tax isn't a tax on property, do I have to spell it out again, it is a tax that cleans the streets, it is a tax aimed at people, not property, it provides us a service.

Yes and how is Council Tax raised? By assessing the property you own or lease to place it into a band, then charging you a certain amount each year based on its worth. How is that not a tax on property?

Because Glass used to be taxed highly, I think you'll find, it wasn't a tax on windows, but glass. Never heard of the roof one before.

It was a direct tax on the number of windows. See Window Tax

[Sharpe's Company]

See for yourself, the exemptions, if council tax was a tax on property, then all properties would pay, but they don't because council tax is a tax on people, not property, and the only reason why property is used is due to it being easy and simple to enforce, it really should be called a household tax in truth.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_Tax#Exemptions

A Vacant dwellings where major repair works or structural alterations are required, underway or recently complete (up to twelve months).

B Unoccupied (and furnished) dwellings owned by a charity (up to six months).

C A vacant dwelling (i.e. empty and substantially unfurnished) (up to six months).

D A dwelling left unoccupied by people who are detained in prison. Normal rates apply if they are imprisoned for non-payment of Council Tax.

E An unoccupied dwelling which was previously the sole or main residence of a person who has moved into a hospital or care home.

F Dwellings left unoccupied by deceased persons.

G An unoccupied dwelling where the occupation is prohibited by law, however squatters can still be charged normal rates if they are found to be residing there.

H Unoccupied dwellings of ministers of any religion.

I An unoccupied dwelling which was previously the sole or main residence of a person who is the owner or tenant and has moved to receive personal care.

J An unoccupied dwelling which was previously the sole or main residence of a person who is the owner or tenant and has moved to provide personal care to another person.

K An unoccupied dwelling where the owner is a student who last lived in the dwelling as their main home.

L An unoccupied dwelling that has been taken into possession by a mortgage lender.

M A hall of residence provided predominantly for the accommodation of students.

N A dwelling which is occupied only by students, the foreign spouses of students, or school and college leavers.

O Armed forces' accommodation.

P A dwelling where at least one person who would otherwise be liable has a relevant association with a visiting force.

Q An unoccupied dwelling where the person who would otherwise be liable is unable to make use of the property because it is with a trustee in bankruptcy.

R Empty caravan pitches or boat moorings not in use.

S A dwelling where all occupants are aged under 18.

T A dwelling which forms part of a single property which includes another dwelling and may not be let separately from that dwelling, without a breach of planning control.

U A dwelling occupied only by a person, or persons, who is or are severely mentally impaired who would otherwise be liable to pay council tax or only by a one or more severely mentally impaired persons and one or more students, students' foreign spouses and school and college leavers.

V A dwelling in which at least one person who would otherwise be liable is a diplomat.

W A dwelling which forms part of a single property including at least one other dwelling and which is the sole or main residence of a dependant relative of a person who is resident in the other dwelling.