Romano-British too easy

[Captain Frye]

The Romano-British are too easy. Why do they have such an amount of elite heavy stablesiani(or whatever that is) cavalry? I can easily beat the saxons on the second turn and by sixth' turn I was able to crush the picts(playing on H/H) with the northern army, which also had lots of cavalry. How is this? I though the romans left the britsh soil, not just gave independence to some local warlords?! I think the romano-british shouldn't have any cavalry at all. Only few militia troops in Londinium. That would represent some sort of realism.

[Joar]

I fully agree. The way the political situation in Britain is depicted in IBFD 7.03 is far from satisfying, but that's just my personal opinion. However, the role of the Romano-British will be radically changed in RR.

[Agent007]

However, the role of the Romano-British will be radically changed in RR.

Now you got me (even more) interested...

[Joar]

[Spike]

is that not because historically, a lot of Sarmatian cavalrymen decide to stay in England?

[Joar]

is that not because historically, a lot of Sarmatian cavalrymen decide to stay in England?

I'm hardly an expert, but I think it would be pretty hard to prove the existence of a substantial number of Sarmatians in Britain. But like I said, I'm no expert.

[Gäiten]

Marcus Aurelius resettled a number here after his Danubian campaigns.

[Joar]

Marcus Aurelius resettled a number here after his Danubian campaigns.

OK, but surely this would have had little impact several centuries later?

[Gäiten]

They kept many of their customs and influenced later Britain ideas. For example, the sword in the stone does have strongly a Sarmatian/Alan influence/background.

Ammianus mentioned that custom among the Alans (31.2.23):

"They plunge a naked sword into the ground with barbaric ceremonies, and then worship it with great respect as Mars, their god of war".

[Chelchal]

According to Bernard S. Bachrach's "History of the Alans in the West" the Romans settled very large numbers of Alans in the mid 5th century in Armorica to fight the Bagaudae rebels as well as other barbarians. With the collapse of Roman authority, the Alans quickly became a military aristocracy that nonetheless assimilated into the local population. The Bretons and Armoricans inherited the Alan cavalry tradition; at Hastings, it was the Breton cavalry that used the feigned retreat to lure the Saxons into open ground, a typically Central Asian technique. Likewise, first hand observers in the early Crusades noted how both the Turks and Bretons used the feigned retreat, although the Bretons use javelins rather than arrows and composite bows.

Similarly, Regino of Prüm noted how the Breton and early Magyar cavalry used similar tactics.

What has this to do with the Britons? We know, they had a major military presence in Northern Gaul in the mid to late 5th century. The "king of the Britons", Riothamus is undoubtedly historical. We have no less than Sidonius Apollinaris to thank for that, since his letter to Riothamus still exists. Jordanes also mentions him while Gregory of Tours mentions the expeditionary British force and its defeat by the Goths, though not Riothamus himself.

Ambrosius Aurelianus was very likely historical, since he is one of the few individuals Gildas bothers to name before his time. In British Celtic tradition, he has strong roots in Armorica. The relationship between Riothamus and Ambrosius is unknown; Leon Fleuriot argued that they were one and the same. It is an attractive hypothesis.

Geoffrey of Monmouth and other medieval Welsh writers described the Armoricans as famous horsemen who saved Ambrosius in battle. And numerous place names (Alaincourt, Alançon, Allainville, etc, etc) existed through France at least through the middle ages and even unto the present day. Bachrach has listed 3 whole pages of such names. "Alan" became a a fairly common name among the Breton aristocracy. St. Germanus of Auxerre prevailed upon King Eochar of the Alans and his "armored horsemen" not to attack Gallo-Roman landowners and take their property. This same Germanus was said to have traveled to Britain and have led the Britons in their "Alleluia" victory and taken away Vortigern's son borne of an incestuous liason with Vortigern's own daughter.

So they were certainly Iranian speaking nomadic peoples in Northern Gaul in the fifth century (who quickly assimilated into the Gallo-Romans but maintained their military techniques.) Their operations in Britain were unknown, but it's possible that the Romanized British military leaders like Riothamus/Ambrosius brought some to Britain.

It's worth pointing out the similarities between the Alan/Sarmatian hero Batraz (from the stories of the Caucasian Alans) and King Arthur.

Batraz was mortally wounded by his archenemy; his brother warrior takes the sword and hurls it into the sea, where a water goddess takes it into the depths. The parallels between this story, and Excalibur and the Lady of the Lake are so strong as to challenge mere coincidence.

"They plunge a naked sword into the ground with barbaric ceremonies, and then worship it with great respect as Mars, their god of war".

I really have to concur with Gäiten here!

[wulfgar610]

How is this? I though the romans left the britsh soil, not just gave independence to some local warlords?! I think the romano-british shouldn't have any cavalry at all. Only few militia troops in Londinium. That would represent some sort of realism.

Typically as with very late Romans, British Cavalry was the main arm of its army. It was the city levies and peasants that formed the infantry that wasn't much chop. The story goes the British infantry was deployed in defensive posture using terrain to their advantage. The cavalry the common javelin armed mailed skirmishing type of the late era.
As to middle ages style super cavalry in the game, that is simply Romanticism.

There's no reason to believe that Constantine pulled the limitani from Britain. All that changed is the field army left with Constantine and Imperial authority never returned after his defeat, being too preoccupied with Barbs running riot in Italy, Gaul, Spain and Illyria.

[Gäiten]

IMO there was a higher-than-average probability that the Warlord`s comitatus was very professional and heavier-than-average shock cavalry (but not very numerous).

[wulfgar610]

IMO there was a higher-than-average probability that the Warlord`s comitatus was very professional and heavier-than-average shock cavalry (but not very numerous).

Well, big galloping thoroughbreds of 15 or 16 hands are on order for that. It's unlikely the British maintained the breed for a long time after the Roman withdrawal. The British had used skirmishing ponies long before the Romans showed and the Picts continuously and the later Welsh horses reverted to type.

For those who can't cure themselves of romanticism I suggest a script creating Arthur and the round table lot for when things get desperate.

script declare_counter loop set_counter loop 0 ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; ;;;;;;;;;;;; britons in danger - Dads Army ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; monitor_event

http://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showth...e-to-Scripting

[Gäiten]

Originally Posted by Gäiten
IMO there was a higher-than-average probability that the Warlord`s comitatus was very professional and heavier-than-average shock cavalry (but not very numerous).

Originally Posted by Gäiten
IMO there was a higher-than-average probability that the Warlord`s comitatus was very professional and heavier-than-average shock cavalry (but not very numerous).

Well, big galloping thoroughbreds of 15 or 16 hands are on order for that. It's unlikely the British maintained the breed for a long time after the Roman withdrawal. The British had used skirmishing ponies long before the Romans showed and the Picts continuously and the later Welsh horses reverted to type.

Well, for a heavier-than average cavalry you do not such a horse breed you described.
Those were not Eastern-style clibinarii.

[wulfgar610]

Well, for a heavier-than average cavalry you do not such a horse breed you described.
Those were not Eastern-style clibinarii.

The thing that makes heavy cavalry what it is, is the weight of the Horse, not the armor. The biggest horses are the fastest gallopers and the ones used as race horses. At the time 15 hands was a large horse and even today is large. Even these days 14 hands in considered the better choice for general riding. The smaller horses were the light cavalry with superior stamina to the large horses.
Big breeds have to the maintained by careful selection or they revert to their intrinsic type, a pony.

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

According to Bernard S. Bachrach's "History of the Alans in the West" the Romans settled very large numbers of Alans in the mid 5th century in Armorica to fight the Bagaudae rebels as well as other barbarians. With the collapse of Roman authority, the Alans quickly became a military aristocracy that nonetheless assimilated into the local population.

Merobaudes Pangeyric of 439 specifically states regarding this that Aetius took a contingent of Alans into Amorica to stop a Bacaudic Rebellio; He settled the Alans along the Seine between Orleans and Amorica to prevent further rebellion, while simeultaneously planting grain fields there.

Regarding Germanus of Auxerre, he made a single trip in 429 in which he led the welsh to victory over the Picts at the Battle of Mold.

[ArtoriusRex]

There were three units which remained in Britain after the Roman pull out. Two were Alano-Gothic [IE. Taifals], the Equites Taifali inuores(sp?) and seniores(sp?) [The inuores had a dragon as their symbol, the seniores a bear] and one Gallic, the Equites Scutarii Aureliaci, related to the city of Aurelianum which was ruled in the era of Julian by Ambrosius Aurelianus the Praetorian Prefect [Whose tunic border was purple- hence Gildas' Ambrosius' parents "Wearing the purple"] who was likely the grandfather of Gildas' Ambrosius and the father of Vortigern's Ambrosius. The Equites Scutarii had abnormally large shields which were solid red, possibly with a white chi-ro superimposed. Sorry- I'm a bit of an Arthurian nut In any case, they were probably armoured with either scale armour or mail, a ridge helm, and used javelins and alanic swords [Ex.http://www.kultofathena.com/product....Dark+Age+Sword, http://www.kultofathena.com/product....tion+Era+Sword, http://www.kultofathena.com/product....rankish+Sword], with thrusting spears, and very rarely a kontos. Lancers in true steppe style would have likely been rare.

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

Steppe-style Lancers weren't used until Aetius introduced the stirrup in the 430s, because the stirrpus prevented from getting unbalanced on the horse

[wulfgar610]

Steppe-style Lancers weren't used until Aetius introduced the stirrup in the 430s, because the stirrpus prevented from getting unbalanced on the horse

Please MMFA, Aetius did not introduce the metal stirrup to Europe. The modern metal stirrup first appeared in Europe a century and a half after Aetius. Although rope and wooden stirrups may have been in use earlier.

The double handed couched lance had been efficiently used long before modern stirrups showed. The metal stirrup seems to have enabled more efficient use of a cavalry shield in melee and charging.

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

Please MMFA, Aetius did not introduce the metal stirrup to Europe. The modern metal stirrup first appeared in Europe a century and a half after Aetius. Although rope and wooden stirrups may have been in use earlier.

The double handed couched lance had been efficiently used long before modern stirrups showed. The metal stirrup seems to have enabled more efficient use of a cavalry shield in melee and charging.

That's what i meant, wooden/leather stirrups not metal ones. The strategicon firsts mentions them, in the 6th century.