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Thread: Who should we fear A genocide from, christians or radical enviromentalist [total relism] vs [justicar]

  1. #1

    Default Who should we fear A genocide from, christians or radical enviromentalist [total relism] vs [justicar]

    The topic is the title,who should we fear more, who would call for a genocide of certain people or groups christians or radical enviromentalist, im greatly looking forward to this one, first post is all yours if delay to long I will start.

    This post started because of this thread here
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=515441

    mostly post 201 and 227 by justicar5
    Last edited by total relism; March 07, 2012 at 03:55 PM.


    “I am in fact, a hobbit in all but size”― J.R.R. Tolkien









  2. #2

    Default Re: Who should we fear A genocide from, christians or radical enviromentalist [total relism] vs [justicar]

    Quote Originally Posted by total relism View Post
    The topic is the title,who should we fear more, who would call for a genocide of certain people or groups christians or radical enviromentalist, im greatly looking forward to this one, first post is all yours if delay to long I will start.

    This post started because of this thread here
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=515441

    mostly post 201 and 227 by justicar5

    You have yet to show that the 'green dragon' is anything more than a propaganda video. But I will show where the bible makes it the duty of every Christian to commit genocide, take slaves, and that forced marriage is a duty.

    In the case of slavery:

    However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)
    That's 'foreigners' (so in the case of Christianity that would be none Christians,) now how are co-religionists to be treated?

    If you buy a Hebrew slave, he is to serve for only six years. Set him free in the seventh year, and he will owe you nothing for his freedom. If he was single when he became your slave and then married afterward, only he will go free in the seventh year. But if he was married before he became a slave, then his wife will be freed with him. If his master gave him a wife while he was a slave, and they had sons or daughters, then the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master. But the slave may plainly declare, 'I love my master, my wife, and my children. I would rather not go free.' If he does this, his master must present him before God. Then his master must take him to the door and publicly pierce his ear with an awl. After that, the slave will belong to his master forever. (Exodus 21:2-6 NLT)
    So you can hold there family hostage, they can either leave there families, or agree to perpetual slavery.

    Now onto genocide.

    Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)
    So if any Christian lives in a town with non-christians, that town is to be obliterated and any Christian who talked with the non-christians is to be killed along side them.

    Here we go with an example of that commandment in action:

    While the Israelites were camped at Acacia, some of the men defiled themselves by sleeping with the local Moabite women. These women invited them to attend sacrifices to their gods, and soon the Israelites were feasting with them and worshiping the gods of Moab. Before long Israel was joining in the worship of Baal of Peor, causing the LORD's anger to blaze against his people. The LORD issued the following command to Moses: "Seize all the ringleaders and execute them before the LORD in broad daylight, so his fierce anger will turn away from the people of Israel." So Moses ordered Israel's judges to execute everyone who had joined in worshiping Baal of Peor. Just then one of the Israelite men brought a Midianite woman into the camp, right before the eyes of Moses and all the people, as they were weeping at the entrance of the Tabernacle. When Phinehas son of Eleazar and grandson of Aaron the priest saw this, he jumped up and left the assembly. Then he took a spear and rushed after the man into his tent. Phinehas thrust the spear all the way through the man's body and into the woman's stomach. So the plague against the Israelites was stopped, but not before 24,000 people had died. (Numbers 25:1-9 NLT)
    Onto rape: Here we see that it is the duty of the faithful to rape any virgins taken as plunder.

    (Judges 21:10-24 NLT)
    So they sent twelve thousand warriors to Jabesh-gilead with orders to kill everyone there, including women and children. "This is what you are to do," they said. "Completely destroy all the males and every woman who is not a virgin." Among the residents of Jabesh-gilead they found four hundred young virgins who had never slept with a man, and they brought them to the camp at Shiloh in the land of Canaan.

    The Israelite assembly sent a peace delegation to the little remnant of Benjamin who were living at the rock of Rimmon. Then the men of Benjamin returned to their homes, and the four hundred women of Jabesh-gilead who were spared were given to them as wives. But there were not enough women for all of them. The people felt sorry for Benjamin because the LORD had left this gap in the tribes of Israel. So the Israelite leaders asked, "How can we find wives for the few who remain, since all the women of the tribe of Benjamin are dead? There must be heirs for the survivors so that an entire tribe of Israel will not be lost forever. But we cannot give them our own daughters in marriage because we have sworn with a solemn oath that anyone who does this will fall under God's curse."

    Then they thought of the annual festival of the LORD held in Shiloh, between Lebonah and Bethel, along the east side of the road that goes from Bethel to Shechem. They told the men of Benjamin who still needed wives, "Go and hide in the vineyards. When the women of Shiloh come out for their dances, rush out from the vineyards, and each of you can take one of them home to be your wife! And when their fathers and brothers come to us in protest, we will tell them, 'Please be understanding. Let them have your daughters, for we didn't find enough wives for them when we destroyed Jabesh-gilead. And you are not guilty of breaking the vow since you did not give your daughters in marriage to them.'" So the men of Benjamin did as they were told. They kidnapped the women who took part in the celebration and carried them off to the land of their own inheritance. Then they rebuilt their towns and lived in them. So the assembly of Israel departed by tribes and families, and they returned to their own homes.
    So they repeatedly raped the prisoners they had taken, and when that was not enough then they ambushed another group of women and raped them.


    And now, the question, do these laws still apply? Jesus is clear, they do:

    For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:18-19 RSV)
    "It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid." (Luke 16:17 NAB)
    There are more passages that make it clear that the laws of the OT still apply, if you wish me to link them


    Now the kicker: IF the laws do not apply, then you can say nothing against homosexuality as Jesus never mentions it in the NT.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Who should we fear A genocide from, christians or radical enviromentalist [total relism] vs [justicar]

    First I believe we have very good reason to fear radical environmentalist, they view people as the problem to all earth concerns, just read my thread on the green dragon some of the responses on there.http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=515441

    As I have pointed out there, many people i will refer to them as RE radical environmentalist, wish to reduce the worlds population to 500,000, so we can live in harmony with mother nature, they see humans as the problem we release co2 in atmosphere cut down trees kill of animal species were are a plague or disease in many of there views. I would say they already are causing genocide through abortion and policies that keep the poor poor and starve millions worldwide through these policies many of witch are to curve carbon emissions. So I believe not only can the RE cause genocide they already are.

    This all comes from a atheistic worldview this worldview has no reason not to genocide,because there is no such thing as right and wrong.

    "if it all happens naturalistic whats the need for a god? cant I set my own rules? who owns me? I own myself".
    Jefery dahmer DVD documentary Jeffrey Dahmer the monster within

    There can only be such a thing as good and bad if the bible is true.

    This is inconsistent with an evolutionary worldview in which there is no logical basis for "good" or "bad." By making such a statement, the evolutionist is actually borrowing morals from the Christian worldview and the Bible in order to claim something is "trickery."
    Within a naturalistic, evolutionary worldview, morality is merely a matter of subjective opinion. So, whether something such as trickery or deception is wrong depends on each person—because it’s merely the result of chemical reactions in our brains.
    I could just as easily say that this email we received is deceptive and full of wishful thinking. And if I get a big enough group together, we can decide that your definition of trickery is wrong. The combined random chemical reactions in our brains form the majority, which makes you wrong—at least until another majority comes along. Without any ultimate standard, we could go back and forth all day saying this is right or that is right.
    As silly as this scenario sounds, it is one of the only arguments evolutionists have for anything that resembles morality. Absolute morals only make sense in a Christian worldview—they come from the One who knows what is good because He is the standard for good. The only One who fits that description is the God of the Bible, the Creator of the universe.


    here are a few quotes of how they view man
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    "how people can live WITHOUT giving birth to more filthy human children since those new additions continue pollution and are pollution...."


    SaveThePlanetProtest.com
    I suspect that eradicating smallpox was wrong. It played an important part in balancing ecosystems.
    —John Davis, editor of Earth First! Journal
    Human beings, as a species, have no more value than slugs.
    —John Davis, editor of Earth First! Journal
    The extinction of the human species may not only be inevitable but a good thing….This is not to say that the rise of human civilization is insignificant, but there is no way of showing that it will be much help to the world in the long run.
    —Economist editorial
    We advocate biodiversity for biodiversity’s sake. It may take our extinction to set things straight.
    —David Foreman, Earth First!
    Phasing out the human race will solve every problem on earth, social and environmental.
    —Dave Forman, Founder of Earth First!
    If radical environmentalists were to invent a disease to bring human populations back to sanity, it would probably be something like AIDS
    —Earth First! Newsletter
    Human happiness, and certainly human fecundity, is not as important as a wild and healthy planets…Some of us can only hope for the right virus to come along.
    —David Graber, biologist, National Park Service
    If I were reincarnated, I would wish to be returned to Earth as a killer virus to lower human population levels.
    —Prince Phillip, World Wildlife Fund
    Cannibalism is a “radical but realistic solution to the problem of overpopulation.”
    —Lyall Watson, The Financial Times, 15 July 1995
    To feed a starving child is to exacerbate the world population problem.
    —Lamont Cole
    The battle to feed humanity is over. In the 1970s, the world will undergo famines. Hundreds of millions of people are going to starve to death in spite of any crash programs embarked upon now. Population control is the only answer.
    —Paul Ehrlich, in The Population Bomb (1968)




    Reasons why we should not fear Christians starting a genocide.
    We were all created equal (Acts 17:26).

    no human being has more or less value than another, we all descend from the same family all created in the image of god. (Genesis 1:26–27



    we are warned against killing

    Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; for in the image of God has God made man.
    gen 9.6


    it is one of gods top 10 no-no's

    13 “You shall not murder.
    exodus 20.13


    our top commandments are to love others and even enemies as ourselves.


    "If you come across your enemy’s ox or donkey wandering off, be sure to return it. 5 If you see the donkey of someone who hates you fallen down under its load, do not leave it there; be sure you help them with it.
    exodus 23 4-5

    36 "Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?"
    37 Jesus replied: "‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments." Matthew 22:36-40 referring to Deuteronomy 6.5 and Leviticus 19.18

    8 Do not owe anyone anything, except to love one another, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. 9 The commandments:
    You shall not commit adultery,
    you shall not murder,
    you shall not steal,
    you shall not covet,
    and if there is any other commandment—all are summed up by this: You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
    10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor. Love, therefore, is the fulfillment of the law.
    Romans 13 8-9
    But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law
    Galatians 5 22-23



    to be perfect we are told to love our enemies.

    But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you,[h] 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 And if you greet your brethren[i] only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors[j] do so? 48 Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect
    matt 5 44-48


    So I see no reason to not commit genocide as a RE in fact reason to do so,and i see why not to do so with the bible.

    Quote Originally Posted by justicar5 View Post
    You have yet to show that the 'green dragon' is anything more than a propaganda video. But I will show where the bible makes it the duty of every Christian to commit genocide, take slaves, and that forced marriage is a duty.

    In the case of slavery:



    That's 'foreigners' (so in the case of Christianity that would be none Christians,) now how are co-religionists to be treated?

    So you can hold there family hostage, they can either leave there families, or agree to perpetual slavery.

    .
    slavery is not on our topic,I will reply here this one time but please lets keep on topic. Slavery is on one of my topic i will be doing in regular forum and you can bring up what you want there, ill be doing it in a few weeks. I must say you are way off on the circumstances and assumptions of witch i will correct for you when I do that thread so for know. Slavery is against the law and punishable by death.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    What many fail to understand is that slavery in biblical times was very different from the slavery that was practiced in the past few centuries in many parts of the world. The slavery in the Bible was not based exclusively on race. People were not enslaved because of their nationality or the color of their skin. In Bible times, slavery was more a matter of social status. People sold themselves as slaves when they could not pay their debts or provide for their families. In New Testament times, sometimes doctors, lawyers, and even politicians were slaves of someone else. Some people actually chose to be slaves so as to have all their needs provided for by their masters.

    In addition, both the Old and New Testaments condemn the practice of "man-stealing" which is what happened in Africa in the 19th century. Africans were rounded up by slave-hunters, who sold them to slave-traders, who brought them to the New World to work on plantations and farms. This practice is abhorrent to God. In fact, the penalty for such a crime in the Mosaic Law was death: "Anyone who kidnaps another and either sells him or still has him when he is caught must be put to death" (Exodus 21:16). Similarly, in the New Testament, slave-traders are listed among those who are "ungodly and sinful" and are in the same category as those who kill their fathers or mothers, murderers, adulterers and perverts, and liars and perjurers (1 Timothy 1:8-10

    exodus 21. 5-6 says "But if the servant declares, ‘I love my master and my wife and children and do not want to go free,’ 6 then his master must take him before the judges.[
    a] He shall take him to the door or the doorpost and pierce his ear with an awl. Then he will be his servant for life.

    This is not at all what we think of in America as slavery, Jesus is refereed to as a slave as is the apostle paul, if anyone has a job they work under someone else and for them and can be considered a slave.

    Contrary to the claims of many skeptics, the New Testament proclaims that all people are equal in the eyes of God - even slaves:
    There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. (
    Galatians 3:28)
    knowing that whatever good thing each one does, this he will receive back from the Lord, whether slave or free. (
    Ephesians 6:8)
    And masters, do the same things to them, and give up threatening, knowing that both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no partiality with Him. (
    Ephesians 6:9)
    a renewal in which there is no distinction between Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave and freeman, but Christ is all, and in all. (
    Colossians 3:11)
    The servitude of a Hebrew debt-slave was limited to six years (
    Ex. 21:2; Deut. 15:12).
    When a slave was freed, he was to receive gifts that enabled him to survive economically (
    Deut. 15:14).
    The bible tells owners to take care of "slaves" so they will be as sons, sounds like adoption almost.
    21 He who pampers his servant from childhood
          Will have him as a son in the end.
    Proverbs 29.21
    slaves were to be treated as being hired from year to year,and were not to be ruled over ruthlessly lev 25 53-54
     
    many laws existed to prevent this from happening,many laws to help the poor in lev ex Deuteronomy
    duternomy 15 1-18 shows slavery and poverty were to be battled against and not preferred institutions.

    The OT laws are not gods perfect plan,but for a specific time and people coming from a ancient near eastern culture.Matt 19.8
    we cannot apply todays western standards to OT near eastern jews.
    many of the laws are case laws, such as if a man sells his daughter in slavery if two man quarrel etc these are working with interferer conditions in ancient near east.

    ot law is not the way god wants, its a way for ancient Israel to live by in a fallen world.

     
    all slaves were to be realsed after 6 years and could be bought back at any time if they had the money
    people chose to enter into slavery
     
    job 31 13-15 shows servants and masters are no different from each other.
    no physical harm was to be done to a slave or they would be let go ex 21 26-27
    if a master kills a slave he is to be put to death ex 21.20
    1 chronicles 2 34-35 sheshan gave his daghter in marraige to his egyptian servant jarha.
    isreal was commanded to offer safe havens for forighners run away slaves dueternomy 23 15-16
     
    1/2 to 2/3 of white imigrants to america in colnial times served as indentured servants or biblical slavery.




    Quote Originally Posted by justicar5 View Post
    So if any Christian lives in a town with non-christians, that town is to be obliterated and any Christian who talked with the non-christians is to be killed along side them.

    Here we go with an example of that commandment in action:
    .

    these are not people who just happen to have different beliefs in a city, these are Canaanites who purposely are leading people away from god to worship false gods, god only ever ordered killings of the Canaanites, these are for specific time people and purpose, unless your saying Christians today should go kill a moabite? you say were not suppose to talk with non believers somehow? how did the apostles and jesus spread there message? talking with non belivers i dont see how you think this to be true.
    Remember i posted if man killed man his blood will be required of him? that is what worshiping Canaanite gods does,you sacrifice babies, burning them alive, among other sins. So again this in no way is a command for Christians today it was a judgment that took over 400 years of terrible sin to finally warent justice because god is just.

    proclaiming, "The LORD, the LORD, the compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness, 7 maintaining love to thousands, and forgiving wickedness, rebellion and sin. Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished
    exodus 34 6-7


    please keep these in mind


    7 If at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom, that I will pluck up and break down and destroy it, 8 and if that nation, concerning which I have spoken, turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I intended to do to it. 9 And if at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom that I will build and plant it, 10 and if it does evil in my sight, not listening to my voice, then I will relent of the good that I had intended to do to it.
    Jeremiah 18 7-10

    god does not like the death of anyone but he is just and must judge he always gives time for repentance.

    "'Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked?,' says the Lord God, 'And not rather that he should turn from his way and live? For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone,' says the Lord God. 'So turn and live! Say to them, "As I live," says the Lord God, "I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways. For why will you die?"'" (Ez. 18.23,32; 33.11).


    "The Lord is not willing that any should perish but that all should reach repentance" (2Pet. 3.9).

    "He desires all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth" (1Tim. 2.4).

    I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live;
    Deuteronomy 30.19

    god will forgive even the most sinfull nation if they repent and stop the evil they are doing.
    jonah whole book also 3.10

    on the ordered killings of the specific time and place Canaanites look under spoiler.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    I used to think that wrath was unworthy of God. Isn't God love? Shouldn't divine love be beyond wrath? ?God is love,and God loves every person and every creature. That's exactly why God is wrathful against some of them. My last resistance to the idea of God's wrath was a casualty of the war in the former Yugoslavia, a region from which I come. According to some estimates, 200,000 people were killed, and over 3,000,000 were displaced. My villages and cities were destroyed, my people shelled day in and day out, some of them brutalize beyond imagination, and I could not imagine God not being angry. Or think of Rwanda in the last decade of the past century, where 800,000 people were hacked to death in one hundred days! How did God react to the carnage? By doting on the perpetrators in a grandfatherly fashion? By refusing to condemn the bloodbath but instead affirming th perpetrators' basic goodness? Wasn't God fiercely angry with them? Though I used to complain about the indecency of the idea of God's wrath, I cam to thin that I would have to rebel against a God who wasn't wrathful at the sight of the world' evil. God isn't wrathful in spite of being love. God is wrathful because God is love (Miroslav Volf as quoted in Is God a Moral Monster? by Paul Copan, 192).


    4 "Do not think in your heart, after the LORD your God has cast them out before you, saying, ‘Because of my righteousness the LORD has brought me in to possess this land’; but it is because of the wickedness of these nations that the LORD is driving them out from before you.
    Deuteronomy 9:4

    I like a point a friend of mine made about this. One Skeptic asked why God simply did not kill Hitler as a baby. Yet if "baby Hitler" had died, the Skeptic would ask why God did not prevent the death of this innocent baby. This shows that a far more critical view is needed than "argument by outrage." Indeed, "argument by outrage" often assumes a form of omniscience by the critic.


    sometimes the death of someone is good in certain circumstances,sep 11 the president gave orders to shoot down planes-to save lives that the teriositt could have used to kill more inocent lives. Sometimes judges give the death penalty to certain murders,but we dont call them murders we call them good just judges.

    The Canaanites initiated the attacks on Israel when isreal was defenseless killing children and woman elderly, ex 17 8-13 num 21.1 21-26 33-35 dut 2 26-37 3 1-22

     

    they had 400 years to repent of there sins such as child sacrifice, the ones that remained if left alive would have carried on there culture [exampled African Americans in America not comparing the two in any way just continue of culture] so while the death of anyone is bad and death itself is bad given circumstances it was better than alternative [example Hitler]


    cannanite society was a whole worldview and way of life witch is why god did not want isreal to mix with them and live with them. god jusdges for no other reason than the sins of the people amos 1-2 God did not hate the Canaanites but the crimes they committed.



    36 They worshiped their idols,
    which became a snare to them.
    37 They sacrificed their sons
    and their daughters to false gods.
    38 They shed innocent blood,
    the blood of their sons and daughters,
    whom they sacrificed to the idols of Canaan,
    and the land was desecrated by their blood.
    39 They defiled themselves by what they did;
    by their deeds they prostituted themselves.
    psalm 106 36-38

     

    they committed adultery in the temple, they chained woman to the temple and people would have sex with them, they sacrificed every first born babies to there god, which was a big furnace half man half bull , they had sex with animals male and female.
    Also god gave them hundreds of years to repent, but they chose not to their influence was spreading to surrounding areas, so god had to do it, he has no joy in killing and he weeps for us, and with us, when death happens even to animals. Also Jericho is only ancient city not plundered when taken, just like the bible says, god told Israel not to plunder because this was for judgment.
    When god destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah in genesis he said he would not destroy it until all good people were out.
    this also was interfering with gods messianic line so either all die and go to hell or they are stopped. The bible says that if certain people were left alive they would fight against isreal and destroy the messianic line. Its like if hitler had been left alone to kill all jews,ascept being more important and killing off the messianic line before jesus was born.
    [/SPOILER]


    Quote Originally Posted by justicar5 View Post
    Onto rape: Here we see that it is the duty of the faithful to rape any virgins taken as plunder.

    So they repeatedly raped the prisoners they had taken, and when that was not enough then they ambushed another group of women and raped them.
    And now, the question, do these laws still apply? Jesus is clear, they do:
    There are more passages that make it clear that the laws of the OT still apply, if you wish me to link them
    Now the kicker: IF the laws do not apply, then you can say nothing against homosexuality as Jesus never mentions it in the NT.

    off topic again please stay on topic this will be only time I reply to off topic stuff, your first mistake is mistaking law with entire ot, the law is not specific commands for certain times people etc.when god told Noah to build a big boat that does not mean we are all to build really big boats, as to if the law applies I hope you know you are in minority of you think it does, the passage you site is true, but you must know Jesus did accomplish his works on the cross and resurrection correct?

    know on to passage, given that the "law" punishes rape with death
    Ex 22 10-17 Deuteronomy 22 23-29 2013-14 21 10-14 and page 118-121 is god a moral monster paul copan.
    rape was punishable by death
    Deuteronomy22 25-27

    it seems weird to me you take this to mean it, than what you have to understand is just because something is in the bible does not mean it is good or what god wants its just what happened. notice verse number 25

    25 In those days there was no king in Israel;(I) everyone did whatever he wanted

    this is why it is good not to listen to atheist websites who cut off at v 24 and don't include last verse otherwise it just looks like you have never read the bible and unquestionably believe what anyone tells you. These site could never be misrepresenting the bible could they be?
    Last edited by total relism; March 09, 2012 at 03:29 PM.


    “I am in fact, a hobbit in all but size”― J.R.R. Tolkien









  4. #4

    Default Re: Who should we fear A genocide from, christians or radical enviromentalist [total relism] vs [justicar]

    im sorry I meant to post this as responce to cannan and god ordered killings,so I will combine with my earlier responce to that under spoiler.

    what i forgot.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    The war was limited in time and space. lasting primarily one generation. The goal of the conquest was to remove the cananites from the land not to kill them.. Some stayed and faght so were killed.
    The land belongs to god and Israel,so they were taking there land back. God gave them 400 years to repent of there sins.
    The nations in cannan were given 3 options
    1] leave- some left
    2] war
    3] join isreal
    4]make peace treaty
    any cannnite city could surrender and would be shown mercy
    josh 2, rahab and family were saved cananites joined isreal 6.23
    some cannanites were obsorbed into isreal rahab and 1 chronicles 21.15,18,28
    cannanites were aware of god and his power josh2 9-11 9 9-10 they all new the miracles of god with isreal coming out of egypt and it is said were even afraid of isreal.
    When god had Israel destroy the Canaanites it wasn't until 400 years of giving them time to repent , Israel stayed in slavery for over 200 years until the Canaanites sin was so great, that they deserved there fate. God warned them and gave them time to disperse from area, some would be driven out not all killed V Deuteronomy 12 29-30. It was only those who resisted this deportation who were exterminated:
    Other cities in area were forbidden to be attacked by Israel the moabites dt 2.9 ammonites dt 2.19 and descendants of esau dt 2 4-6 .
    Israel was required to make peace offerings to cities in cannan from a distance dt 20 10-16.
    Canaanites destruction was not genocide or racism but because of moral behavior. God is judge of man, does not order killing out of malice or lawlessness Deuternomy 32.4
    4 "Do not think in your heart, after the LORD your God has cast them out before you, saying, ‘Because of my righteousness the LORD has brought me in to possess this land’; but it is because of the wickedness of these nations that the LORD is driving them out from before you.
    Deuteronomy 9:4
    in 1 ch 28.3 king David is not the one allowed to build the temple because he has to much blood on his hands[ he killed to many people] even though they were god ordered killings, death is still a bad thing and not normal or natural part of life.


    under this spoiler is what I posted first

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    4 "Do not think in your heart, after the LORD your God has cast them out before you, saying, ‘Because of my righteousness the LORD has brought me in to possess this land’; but it is because of the wickedness of these nations that the LORD is driving them out from before you.
    Deuteronomy 9:4

    I like a point a friend of mine made about this. One Skeptic asked why God simply did not kill Hitler as a baby. Yet if "baby Hitler" had died, the Skeptic would ask why God did not prevent the death of this innocent baby. This shows that a far more critical view is needed than "argument by outrage." Indeed, "argument by outrage" often assumes a form of omniscience by the critic.


    sometimes the death of someone is good in certain circumstances,sep 11 the president gave orders to shoot down planes-to save lives that the teriositt could have used to kill more inocent lives. Sometimes judges give the death penalty to certain murders,but we dont call them murders we call them good just judges.

    The Canaanites initiated the attacks on Israel when isreal was defenseless killing children and woman elderly, ex 17 8-13 num 21.1 21-26 33-35 dut 2 26-37 3 1-22

     

    they had 400 years to repent of there sins such as child sacrifice, the ones that remained if left alive would have carried on there culture [exampled African Americans in America not comparing the two in any way just continue of culture] so while the death of anyone is bad and death itself is bad given circumstances it was better than alternative [example Hitler]


    cannanite society was a whole worldview and way of life witch is why god did not want isreal to mix with them and live with them. god jusdges for no other reason than the sins of the people amos 1-2 God did not hate the Canaanites but the crimes they committed.


    36 They worshiped their idols,
    which became a snare to them.
    37 They sacrificed their sons
    and their daughters to false gods.
    38 They shed innocent blood,
    the blood of their sons and daughters,
    whom they sacrificed to the idols of Canaan,
    and the land was desecrated by their blood.
    39 They defiled themselves by what they did;
    by their deeds they prostituted themselves.
    psalm 106 36-38

     

    they committed adultery in the temple, they chained woman to the temple and people would have sex with them, they sacrificed every first born babies to there god, which was a big furnace half man half bull , they had sex with animals male and female.
    Also god gave them hundreds of years to repent, but they chose not to their influence was spreading to surrounding areas, so god had to do it, he has no joy in killing and he weeps for us, and with us, when death happens even to animals. Also Jericho is only ancient city not plundered when taken, just like the bible says, god told Israel not to plunder because this was for judgment.
    When god destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah in genesis he said he would not destroy it until all good people were out.
    this also was interfering with gods messianic line so either all die and go to hell or they are stopped. The bible says that if certain people were left alive they would fight against isreal and destroy the messianic line. Its like if hitler had been left alone to kill all jews,ascept being more important and killing off the messianic line before jesus was born.



    “I am in fact, a hobbit in all but size”― J.R.R. Tolkien









  5. #5

    Default Re: Who should we fear A genocide from, christians or radical enviromentalist [total relism] vs [justicar]

    Quote Originally Posted by total relism View Post
    im sorry I meant to post this as responce to cannan and god ordered killings,so I will combine with my earlier responce to that under spoiler.

    what i forgot.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    The war was limited in time and space. lasting primarily one generation. The goal of the conquest was to remove the cananites from the land not to kill them.. Some stayed and faght so were killed.
    The land belongs to god and Israel,so they were taking there land back. God gave them 400 years to repent of there sins.
    The nations in cannan were given 3 options
    1] leave- some left
    2] war
    3] join isreal
    4]make peace treaty
    any cannnite city could surrender and would be shown mercy
    josh 2, rahab and family were saved cananites joined isreal 6.23
    some cannanites were obsorbed into isreal rahab and 1 chronicles 21.15,18,28
    cannanites were aware of god and his power josh2 9-11 9 9-10 they all new the miracles of god with isreal coming out of egypt and it is said were even afraid of isreal.
    When god had Israel destroy the Canaanites it wasn't until 400 years of giving them time to repent , Israel stayed in slavery for over 200 years until the Canaanites sin was so great, that they deserved there fate. God warned them and gave them time to disperse from area, some would be driven out not all killed V Deuteronomy 12 29-30. It was only those who resisted this deportation who were exterminated:
    Other cities in area were forbidden to be attacked by Israel the moabites dt 2.9 ammonites dt 2.19 and descendants of esau dt 2 4-6 .
    Israel was required to make peace offerings to cities in cannan from a distance dt 20 10-16.
    Canaanites destruction was not genocide or racism but because of moral behavior. God is judge of man, does not order killing out of malice or lawlessness Deuternomy 32.4
    4 "Do not think in your heart, after the LORD your God has cast them out before you, saying, ‘Because of my righteousness the LORD has brought me in to possess this land’; but it is because of the wickedness of these nations that the LORD is driving them out from before you.
    Deuteronomy 9:4
    in 1 ch 28.3 king David is not the one allowed to build the temple because he has to much blood on his hands[ he killed to many people] even though they were god ordered killings, death is still a bad thing and not normal or natural part of life.


    under this spoiler is what I posted first

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    4 "Do not think in your heart, after the LORD your God has cast them out before you, saying, ‘Because of my righteousness the LORD has brought me in to possess this land’; but it is because of the wickedness of these nations that the LORD is driving them out from before you.
    Deuteronomy 9:4

    I like a point a friend of mine made about this. One Skeptic asked why God simply did not kill Hitler as a baby. Yet if "baby Hitler" had died, the Skeptic would ask why God did not prevent the death of this innocent baby. This shows that a far more critical view is needed than "argument by outrage." Indeed, "argument by outrage" often assumes a form of omniscience by the critic.


    sometimes the death of someone is good in certain circumstances,sep 11 the president gave orders to shoot down planes-to save lives that the teriositt could have used to kill more inocent lives. Sometimes judges give the death penalty to certain murders,but we dont call them murders we call them good just judges.

    The Canaanites initiated the attacks on Israel when isreal was defenseless killing children and woman elderly, ex 17 8-13 num 21.1 21-26 33-35 dut 2 26-37 3 1-22

     

    they had 400 years to repent of there sins such as child sacrifice, the ones that remained if left alive would have carried on there culture [exampled African Americans in America not comparing the two in any way just continue of culture] so while the death of anyone is bad and death itself is bad given circumstances it was better than alternative [example Hitler]


    cannanite society was a whole worldview and way of life witch is why god did not want isreal to mix with them and live with them. god jusdges for no other reason than the sins of the people amos 1-2 God did not hate the Canaanites but the crimes they committed.


    36 They worshiped their idols,
    which became a snare to them.
    37 They sacrificed their sons
    and their daughters to false gods.
    38 They shed innocent blood,
    the blood of their sons and daughters,
    whom they sacrificed to the idols of Canaan,
    and the land was desecrated by their blood.
    39 They defiled themselves by what they did;
    by their deeds they prostituted themselves.
    psalm 106 36-38

     

    they committed adultery in the temple, they chained woman to the temple and people would have sex with them, they sacrificed every first born babies to there god, which was a big furnace half man half bull , they had sex with animals male and female.
    Also god gave them hundreds of years to repent, but they chose not to their influence was spreading to surrounding areas, so god had to do it, he has no joy in killing and he weeps for us, and with us, when death happens even to animals. Also Jericho is only ancient city not plundered when taken, just like the bible says, god told Israel not to plunder because this was for judgment.
    When god destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah in genesis he said he would not destroy it until all good people were out.
    this also was interfering with gods messianic line so either all die and go to hell or they are stopped. The bible says that if certain people were left alive they would fight against isreal and destroy the messianic line. Its like if hitler had been left alone to kill all jews,ascept being more important and killing off the messianic line before jesus was born.

    So you admit that is the duty of the faithful to slaughter unbelievers? Also the title is misleading as that is not the debate I agreed to.
    Last edited by justicar5; March 11, 2012 at 01:43 PM.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Who should we fear A genocide from, christians or radical enviromentalist [total relism] vs [justicar]

    Quote Originally Posted by justicar5 View Post
    So you admit that is the duty of the faithful to slaughter unbelievers? Also the title is misleading as that is not the debate I agreed to.
    God never comanded killing unbelivers, but god did judge sinful people.

    4 "Do not think in your heart, after the LORD your God has cast them out before you, saying, ‘Because of my righteousness the LORD has brought me in to possess this land’; but it is because of the wickedness of these nations that the LORD is driving them out from before you.
    Deuteronomy 9:4


    Please read my replies before asking a question such as you have above as they directly reply to your claims and would anwser your question. Did america wage war on nonbelivers during ww2?or did they punish and stop a sinfull nation? cannaites burned children alive so did nazies. I belive while not good in itself, they both needed judgement. As I said in my post 400 years of child sacrafice is what it took for god to act

    proclaiming, "The LORD, the LORD, the compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness, 7 maintaining love to thousands, and forgiving wickedness, rebellion and sin. Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished
    exodus 34 6-7


    I think you would have a better argument had you said why did god allow people for 400 years burn alive there children.

    Im sorry about topic I thoght that was what it was on based on our discusion in other thread, please tell me what you would like it to be on?

    nowere in your reply did I see a defence of RE causing a genocide. Or reason to fear chirtians starting a genocide.


    “I am in fact, a hobbit in all but size”― J.R.R. Tolkien









  7. #7

    Default Re: Who should we fear A genocide from, christians or radical enviromentalist [total relism] vs [justicar]

    Quote Originally Posted by total relism View Post
    God never comanded killing unbelivers, but god did judge sinful people.

    4 "Do not think in your heart, after the LORD your God has cast them out before you, saying, ‘Because of my righteousness the LORD has brought me in to possess this land’; but it is because of the wickedness of these nations that the LORD is driving them out from before you.
    Deuteronomy 9:4


    Please read my replies before asking a question such as you have above as they directly reply to your claims and would anwser your question. Did america wage war on nonbelivers during ww2?or did they punish and stop a sinfull nation? cannaites burned children alive so did nazies. I belive while not good in itself, they both needed judgement. As I said in my post 400 years of child sacrafice is what it took for god to act

    proclaiming, "The LORD, the LORD, the compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness, 7 maintaining love to thousands, and forgiving wickedness, rebellion and sin. Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished
    exodus 34 6-7


    I think you would have a better argument had you said why did god allow people for 400 years burn alive there children.

    Im sorry about topic I thoght that was what it was on based on our discusion in other thread, please tell me what you would like it to be on?

    nowere in your reply did I see a defence of RE causing a genocide. Or reason to fear chirtians starting a genocide.

    I showed you exactly where god does state all unbelievers must die in my first post. And your canaanite 'defence' which amounts to 'we spread black propaganda about them then raped and murdered our way across there land'. So you support the Holocaust? The nazis made it clear that it was there land, and that all jews should leave. Which by the standards as you apply them is all you need to do before genocide and rape become ok. You also issued no rebutal of the duty to rape.



    And the thread is about: Is Genocide still, or has it ever been the religious duty of the Abrahamic faiths, if so should they ever be forgiven, or should they be pariahs as the perpetrators of the holocaust are.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Who should we fear A genocide from, christians or radical enviromentalist [total relism] vs [justicar]

    Quote Originally Posted by justicar5 View Post
    I showed you exactly where god does state all unbelievers must die in my first post. And your canaanite 'defence' which amounts to 'we spread black propaganda about them then raped and murdered our way across there land'. So you support the Holocaust? The nazis made it clear that it was there land, and that all jews should leave. Which by the standards as you apply them is all you need to do before genocide and rape become ok. You also issued no rebutal of the duty to rape.



    And the thread is about: Is Genocide still, or has it ever been the religious duty of the Abrahamic faiths, if so should they ever be forgiven, or should they be pariahs as the perpetrators of the holocaust are.
    Im sorry the duternomy passage? its weird you say god says that all unbelivers must die when he commands just the opisite, as I said this is in no way true so ill try to exspalin again for you.

    from a theologian i emailed.


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    nation of Israel was a theocracy, and hence the laws mentioned in Deuteronomy were for the preservation and operation of the theocratic nation of Israel under God's law. Christians today (in America) do not live within a theocracy like the one ancient Israel was under and therefore these laws are not relevant to the Christian life.

    In addition we should also not overlook verse 14 in which it is commanded the claim must be inquired thoroughly, and in my opinion, substantiated. The call for investigation is a commendable attribute of Jewish laws when we consider the time and place when this was written. In other words, it's not a witch hunt mob going around carrying out vigilante justice, but an organized investigation.
    We must also understand what was considered "detestable" (or an abomination as it also appears). It wasn't peaceful monks quietly meditating. Detestable, or an abomination, is associated with gross and offensive idolatry. Let's not forget that the religions present in Canaan prior to Israel's formation consisted of very shocking practices like child sacrifice. Some Bible commentaries say that idolatry mentioned in these verses pertains to ultimate idolatry of the anti-Christ. Even by today’s liberal standards these aren’t things to be “tolerant” of.
    Lastly, I think verse 16 brings up an important part too: There are no spoils to this war. Everything must be destroyed. Thus eliminating any deviant motivation for someone to falsely accuse another city of idolatry in order to score some land, buildings, cattle or other goods. It is clearly demonstrated in these verses, in my opinion, that the actions were commanded to ensure the nation of Israel remains uninfected by outside idolatry, period.
    As far as its application today. Within context these verses I think it is clear that they are non-applicable to modern Christians
    If that doesn’t appease your atheist friend, you might want to mention all the heinous atrocities committed by atheists in the 20th century alone in China or the Soviet Union, which had a total body count that made anything that took place in the OT look like a Disney movie.



    As I said before this is not killing people for being of a difrent belief, nor are christians told to do so today,simply read the bible and NT this will show to be true. these are cannaites who have had multiple chances to repent make peace agrement join isreal etc and have not,they also are staying within isreal on purpose to lead them to follow there gods,witch again is things like burning children alive etc.

    Than we must understand while in today poltically correct your religon is true and so is mine atitude, god sees it very difrently.

    “If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea. 7 Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to stumble! Such things must come, but woe to the person through whom they come
    matt 16 6-7

    isreal was in a covenant with god a marragie and god sees idolotry as adultery. Think about it people causing belivers to miss out on etenity with god in hevan and spend etenity away from him in hell and you think god should allow that to happen?
    These people were not just of difrent belief they were defing god on purpose they new god had chances for forgivness peace trety join isreal or leave they stuck around on purpose to lead people astray.


    god cannot let his people go he loves them and has made promises to them he will keep.

    8 “How can I give you up, Ephraim?
    How can I hand you over, Israel?
    How can I treat you like Admah?
    How can I make you like Zeboyim?
    My heart is changed within me;
    all my compassion is aroused
    hosea 11 8


    Then in the nations where they have been carried captive, those who escape will remember me—how I have been grieved by their adulterous hearts, which have turned away from me, and by their eyes, which have lusted after their idols. They will loathe themselves for the evil they have done and for all their detestable practices
    ezekiel 6.9


    leave god to go sacrafice babies on a alter no wonder god hates the cannaite religon and the acts of those who would lead them astray. No wonder he views them as destestable how can you not? what god would not view there religon as anything but detestable?

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    I used to think that wrath was unworthy of God. Isn't God love? Shouldn't divine love be beyond wrath? ?God is love,and God loves every person and every creature. That's exactly why God is wrathful against some of them. My last resistance to the idea of God's wrath was a casualty of the war in the former Yugoslavia, a region from which I come. According to some estimates, 200,000 people were killed, and over 3,000,000 were displaced. My villages and cities were destroyed, my people shelled day in and day out, some of them brutalize beyond imagination, and I could not imagine God not being angry. Or think of Rwanda in the last decade of the past century, where 800,000 people were hacked to death in one hundred days! How did God react to the carnage? By doting on the perpetrators in a grandfatherly fashion? By refusing to condemn the bloodbath but instead affirming th perpetrators' basic goodness? Wasn't God fiercely angry with them? Though I used to complain about the indecency of the idea of God's wrath, I cam to thin that I would have to rebel against a God who wasn't wrathful at the sight of the world' evil. God isn't wrathful in spite of being love. God is wrathful because God is love (Miroslav Volf as quoted in Is God a Moral Monster? by Paul Copan, 192).





    7 If at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom, that I will pluck up and break down and destroy it, 8 and if that nation, concerning which I have spoken, turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I intended to do to it. 9 And if at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom that I will build and plant it, 10 and if it does evil in my sight, not listening to my voice, then I will relent of the good that I had intended to do to it.
    Jeremiah 18 7-10



    "'Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked?,' says the Lord God, 'And not rather that he should turn from his way and live? For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone,' says the Lord God. 'So turn and live! Say to them, "As I live," says the Lord God, "I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways. For why will you die?"'" (Ez. 18.23,32; 33.11).


    My earlier replies about cannan still apply here to these verses in duternomy.



    The rest I could not understand very well alot of what seemed to be emotinal or angery typing please retype, you seem to still think the bible suports rape, so I will again repost, you say the bible suports rape because of


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    (Judges 21:10-24 NLT)
    So they sent twelve thousand warriors to Jabesh-gilead with orders to kill everyone there, including women and children. "This is what you are to do," they said. "Completely destroy all the males and every woman who is not a virgin." Among the residents of Jabesh-gilead they found four hundred young virgins who had never slept with a man, and they brought them to the camp at Shiloh in the land of Canaan.

    The Israelite assembly sent a peace delegation to the little remnant of Benjamin who were living at the rock of Rimmon. Then the men of Benjamin returned to their homes, and the four hundred women of Jabesh-gilead who were spared were given to them as wives. But there were not enough women for all of them. The people felt sorry for Benjamin because the LORD had left this gap in the tribes of Israel. So the Israelite leaders asked, "How can we find wives for the few who remain, since all the women of the tribe of Benjamin are dead? There must be heirs for the survivors so that an entire tribe of Israel will not be lost forever. But we cannot give them our own daughters in marriage because we have sworn with a solemn oath that anyone who does this will fall under God's curse."

    Then they thought of the annual festival of the LORD held in Shiloh, between Lebonah and Bethel, along the east side of the road that goes from Bethel to Shechem. They told the men of Benjamin who still needed wives, "Go and hide in the vineyards. When the women of Shiloh come out for their dances, rush out from the vineyards, and each of you can take one of them home to be your wife! And when their fathers and brothers come to us in protest, we will tell them, 'Please be understanding. Let them have your daughters, for we didn't find enough wives for them when we destroyed Jabesh-gilead. And you are not guilty of breaking the vow since you did not give your daughters in marriage to them.'" So the men of Benjamin did as they were told. They kidnapped the women who took part in the celebration and carried them off to the land of their own inheritance. Then they rebuilt their towns and lived in them. So the assembly of Israel departed by tribes and families, and they returned to their own homes.


    judges 21 10-24 with verse 25 left out by athist website. what translation is that anyways?



    know if you go back to my responce this is why I posted v 25 with it. The last verse of chapter and book they convinetly left out, that by the way follows 24.

    10 So the assembly sent twelve thousand fighting men with instructions to go to Jabesh Gilead and put to the sword those living there, including the women and children. 11 “This is what you are to do,” they said. “Kill every male and every woman who is not a virgin.” 12 They found among the people living in Jabesh Gilead four hundred young women who had never slept with a man, and they took them to the camp at Shiloh in Canaan.
    13 Then the whole assembly sent an offer of peace to the Benjamites at the rock of Rimmon. 14 So the Benjamites returned at that time and were given the women of Jabesh Gilead who had been spared. But there were not enough for all of them.
    15 The people grieved for Benjamin, because the LORD had made a gap in the tribes of Israel. 16 And the elders of the assembly said, “With the women of Benjamin destroyed, how shall we provide wives for the men who are left? 17 The Benjamite survivors must have heirs,” they said, “so that a tribe of Israel will not be wiped out. 18 We can’t give them our daughters as wives, since we Israelites have taken this oath: ‘Cursed be anyone who gives a wife to a Benjamite.’ 19 But look, there is the annual festival of the LORD in Shiloh, which lies north of Bethel, east of the road that goes from Bethel to Shechem, and south of Lebonah.”
    20 So they instructed the Benjamites, saying, “Go and hide in the vineyards 21 and watch. When the young women of Shiloh come out to join in the dancing, rush from the vineyards and each of you seize one of them to be your wife. Then return to the land of Benjamin. 22 When their fathers or brothers complain to us, we will say to them, ‘Do us the favor of helping them, because we did not get wives for them during the war. You will not be guilty of breaking your oath because you did not give your daughters to them.’”
    23 So that is what the Benjamites did. While the young women were dancing, each man caught one and carried her off to be his wife. Then they returned to their inheritance and rebuilt the towns and settled in them.
    24 At that time the Israelites left that place and went home to their tribes and clans, each to his own inheritance. 25 In those days Israel had no king; everyone did as they saw fit.

    OK know hopefully you see this is just telling of what happned not what god wanted, the entire book is about what happens with no goverment anarchy what people will do, the whole book is full of isreals sin that god does not want. You than claim it supports rape show you have never even read the bible.


    also in a debate one side does not defend and one atack i should be able to atack your views,are you athist? I will use that instead of RE next post.
    Last edited by total relism; March 12, 2012 at 12:34 PM.


    “I am in fact, a hobbit in all but size”― J.R.R. Tolkien









  9. #9

    Default Re: Who should we fear A genocide from, christians or radical enviromentalist [total relism] vs [justicar]

    Quote Originally Posted by total relism View Post
    Im sorry the duternomy passage? its weird you say god says that all unbelivers must die when he commands just the opisite, as I said this is in no way true so ill try to exspalin again for you.

    from a theologian i emailed.


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    nation of Israel was a theocracy, and hence the laws mentioned in Deuteronomy were for the preservation and operation of the theocratic nation of Israel under God's law. Christians today (in America) do not live within a theocracy like the one ancient Israel was under and therefore these laws are not relevant to the Christian life.

    In addition we should also not overlook verse 14 in which it is commanded the claim must be inquired thoroughly, and in my opinion, substantiated. The call for investigation is a commendable attribute of Jewish laws when we consider the time and place when this was written. In other words, it's not a witch hunt mob going around carrying out vigilante justice, but an organized investigation.
    We must also understand what was considered "detestable" (or an abomination as it also appears). It wasn't peaceful monks quietly meditating. Detestable, or an abomination, is associated with gross and offensive idolatry. Let's not forget that the religions present in Canaan prior to Israel's formation consisted of very shocking practices like child sacrifice. Some Bible commentaries say that idolatry mentioned in these verses pertains to ultimate idolatry of the anti-Christ. Even by today’s liberal standards these aren’t things to be “tolerant” of.
    Lastly, I think verse 16 brings up an important part too: There are no spoils to this war. Everything must be destroyed. Thus eliminating any deviant motivation for someone to falsely accuse another city of idolatry in order to score some land, buildings, cattle or other goods. It is clearly demonstrated in these verses, in my opinion, that the actions were commanded to ensure the nation of Israel remains uninfected by outside idolatry, period.
    As far as its application today. Within context these verses I think it is clear that they are non-applicable to modern Christians
    If that doesn’t appease your atheist friend, you might want to mention all the heinous atrocities committed by atheists in the 20th century alone in China or the Soviet Union, which had a total body count that made anything that took place in the OT look like a Disney movie.



    As I said before this is not killing people for being of a difrent belief, nor are christians told to do so today,simply read the bible and NT this will show to be true. these are cannaites who have had multiple chances to repent make peace agrement join isreal etc and have not,they also are staying within isreal on purpose to lead them to follow there gods,witch again is things like burning children alive etc.

    Than we must understand while in today poltically correct your religon is true and so is mine atitude, god sees it very difrently.

    “If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea. 7 Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to stumble! Such things must come, but woe to the person through whom they come
    matt 16 6-7

    isreal was in a covenant with god a marragie and god sees idolotry as adultery. Think about it people causing belivers to miss out on etenity with god in hevan and spend etenity away from him in hell and you think god should allow that to happen?
    These people were not just of difrent belief they were defing god on purpose they new god had chances for forgivness peace trety join isreal or leave they stuck around on purpose to lead people astray.


    god cannot let his people go he loves them and has made promises to them he will keep.

    8 “How can I give you up, Ephraim?
    How can I hand you over, Israel?
    How can I treat you like Admah?
    How can I make you like Zeboyim?
    My heart is changed within me;
    all my compassion is aroused
    hosea 11 8


    Then in the nations where they have been carried captive, those who escape will remember me—how I have been grieved by their adulterous hearts, which have turned away from me, and by their eyes, which have lusted after their idols. They will loathe themselves for the evil they have done and for all their detestable practices
    ezekiel 6.9


    leave god to go sacrafice babies on a alter no wonder god hates the cannaite religon and the acts of those who would lead them astray. No wonder he views them as destestable how can you not? what god would not view there religon as anything but detestable?

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    I used to think that wrath was unworthy of God. Isn't God love? Shouldn't divine love be beyond wrath? ?God is love,and God loves every person and every creature. That's exactly why God is wrathful against some of them. My last resistance to the idea of God's wrath was a casualty of the war in the former Yugoslavia, a region from which I come. According to some estimates, 200,000 people were killed, and over 3,000,000 were displaced. My villages and cities were destroyed, my people shelled day in and day out, some of them brutalize beyond imagination, and I could not imagine God not being angry. Or think of Rwanda in the last decade of the past century, where 800,000 people were hacked to death in one hundred days! How did God react to the carnage? By doting on the perpetrators in a grandfatherly fashion? By refusing to condemn the bloodbath but instead affirming th perpetrators' basic goodness? Wasn't God fiercely angry with them? Though I used to complain about the indecency of the idea of God's wrath, I cam to thin that I would have to rebel against a God who wasn't wrathful at the sight of the world' evil. God isn't wrathful in spite of being love. God is wrathful because God is love (Miroslav Volf as quoted in Is God a Moral Monster? by Paul Copan, 192).





    7 If at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom, that I will pluck up and break down and destroy it, 8 and if that nation, concerning which I have spoken, turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I intended to do to it. 9 And if at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom that I will build and plant it, 10 and if it does evil in my sight, not listening to my voice, then I will relent of the good that I had intended to do to it.
    Jeremiah 18 7-10



    "'Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked?,' says the Lord God, 'And not rather that he should turn from his way and live? For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone,' says the Lord God. 'So turn and live! Say to them, "As I live," says the Lord God, "I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways. For why will you die?"'" (Ez. 18.23,32; 33.11).


    My earlier replies about cannan still apply here to these verses in duternomy.



    The rest I could not understand very well alot of what seemed to be emotinal or angery typing please retype, you seem to still think the bible suports rape, so I will again repost, you say the bible suports rape because of


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    (Judges 21:10-24 NLT)
    So they sent twelve thousand warriors to Jabesh-gilead with orders to kill everyone there, including women and children. "This is what you are to do," they said. "Completely destroy all the males and every woman who is not a virgin." Among the residents of Jabesh-gilead they found four hundred young virgins who had never slept with a man, and they brought them to the camp at Shiloh in the land of Canaan.

    The Israelite assembly sent a peace delegation to the little remnant of Benjamin who were living at the rock of Rimmon. Then the men of Benjamin returned to their homes, and the four hundred women of Jabesh-gilead who were spared were given to them as wives. But there were not enough women for all of them. The people felt sorry for Benjamin because the LORD had left this gap in the tribes of Israel. So the Israelite leaders asked, "How can we find wives for the few who remain, since all the women of the tribe of Benjamin are dead? There must be heirs for the survivors so that an entire tribe of Israel will not be lost forever. But we cannot give them our own daughters in marriage because we have sworn with a solemn oath that anyone who does this will fall under God's curse."

    Then they thought of the annual festival of the LORD held in Shiloh, between Lebonah and Bethel, along the east side of the road that goes from Bethel to Shechem. They told the men of Benjamin who still needed wives, "Go and hide in the vineyards. When the women of Shiloh come out for their dances, rush out from the vineyards, and each of you can take one of them home to be your wife! And when their fathers and brothers come to us in protest, we will tell them, 'Please be understanding. Let them have your daughters, for we didn't find enough wives for them when we destroyed Jabesh-gilead. And you are not guilty of breaking the vow since you did not give your daughters in marriage to them.'" So the men of Benjamin did as they were told. They kidnapped the women who took part in the celebration and carried them off to the land of their own inheritance. Then they rebuilt their towns and lived in them. So the assembly of Israel departed by tribes and families, and they returned to their own homes.


    judges 21 10-24 with verse 25 left out by athist website. what translation is that anyways?



    know if you go back to my responce this is why I posted v 25 with it. The last verse of chapter and book they convinetly left out, that by the way follows 24.

    10 So the assembly sent twelve thousand fighting men with instructions to go to Jabesh Gilead and put to the sword those living there, including the women and children. 11 “This is what you are to do,” they said. “Kill every male and every woman who is not a virgin.” 12 They found among the people living in Jabesh Gilead four hundred young women who had never slept with a man, and they took them to the camp at Shiloh in Canaan.
    13 Then the whole assembly sent an offer of peace to the Benjamites at the rock of Rimmon. 14 So the Benjamites returned at that time and were given the women of Jabesh Gilead who had been spared. But there were not enough for all of them.
    15 The people grieved for Benjamin, because the LORD had made a gap in the tribes of Israel. 16 And the elders of the assembly said, “With the women of Benjamin destroyed, how shall we provide wives for the men who are left? 17 The Benjamite survivors must have heirs,” they said, “so that a tribe of Israel will not be wiped out. 18 We can’t give them our daughters as wives, since we Israelites have taken this oath: ‘Cursed be anyone who gives a wife to a Benjamite.’ 19 But look, there is the annual festival of the LORD in Shiloh, which lies north of Bethel, east of the road that goes from Bethel to Shechem, and south of Lebonah.”
    20 So they instructed the Benjamites, saying, “Go and hide in the vineyards 21 and watch. When the young women of Shiloh come out to join in the dancing, rush from the vineyards and each of you seize one of them to be your wife. Then return to the land of Benjamin. 22 When their fathers or brothers complain to us, we will say to them, ‘Do us the favor of helping them, because we did not get wives for them during the war. You will not be guilty of breaking your oath because you did not give your daughters to them.’”
    23 So that is what the Benjamites did. While the young women were dancing, each man caught one and carried her off to be his wife. Then they returned to their inheritance and rebuilt the towns and settled in them.
    24 At that time the Israelites left that place and went home to their tribes and clans, each to his own inheritance. 25 In those days Israel had no king; everyone did as they saw fit.

    OK know hopefully you see this is just telling of what happned not what god wanted, the entire book is about what happens with no goverment anarchy what people will do, the whole book is full of isreals sin that god does not want. You than claim it supports rape show you have never even read the bible.


    also in a debate one side does not defend and one atack i should be able to atack your views,are you athist? I will use that instead of RE next post.

    I am a Maltheist. There is a god and his (claimed) acts are behind the mask of every religion, the slaughter nad pain to appease a laughing god? All him, the same god orders the annhilation of the canaanites as orders the ritual sacrifices in Aztec temples (tho most of it is his propaganda, shown to his credulous victims). HE can never be forgiven for those acts. He is the worst monster in the history of the universe. Oh and since the Holocaust was (Ostensibly) in the name of god (seriously one of the 'reasons' was the jews killed christ, another was that gays went against god and that communists where godless)

    Also there are other passages about rape (the 40 shekel fine and the victim being forced to marry her attacker, as she was nothing but her families property,) also the slavery (holding the family hostage to make the male agree to perpetual servitude), also that theologians defence relies on the Canaanites actually doing what the people who wanted to steal their land claimed they did...erm so no chance really.

    Also an infinite punishment for finite 'crimes' (the crime being not worshipping the monster who ordered all of this death)

    The problem remains as well, God DID order this. How can that ever be forgiven and forgotten? Mao and Stalin rightly never should be. Why is Yahweh any different? That is the main issue, we are supposed to viewq a mass murdering creature as the ultimate manifestation of justice and love, when he shows no particular ability or consistency with either.
    Last edited by justicar5; March 12, 2012 at 05:35 PM.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Who should we fear A genocide from, christians or radical enviromentalist [total relism] vs [justicar]

    Quote Originally Posted by justicar5 View Post
    I am a Maltheist. There is a god and his (claimed) acts are behind the mask of every religion, the slaughter nad pain to appease a laughing god? All him, the same god orders the annhilation of the canaanites as orders the ritual sacrifices in Aztec temples (tho most of it is his propaganda, shown to his credulous victims). HE can never be forgiven for those acts. He is the worst monster in the history of the universe. Oh and since the Holocaust was (Ostensibly) in the name of god (seriously one of the 'reasons' was the jews killed christ, another was that gays went against god and that communists where godless)

    Also there are other passages about rape (the 40 shekel fine and the victim being forced to marry her attacker, as she was nothing but her families property,) also the slavery (holding the family hostage to make the male agree to perpetual servitude), also that theologians defence relies on the Canaanites actually doing what the people who wanted to steal their land claimed they did...erm so no chance really.

    Also an infinite punishment for finite 'crimes' (the crime being not worshipping the monster who ordered all of this death)

    The problem remains as well, God DID order this. How can that ever be forgiven and forgotten? Mao and Stalin rightly never should be. Why is Yahweh any different? That is the main issue, we are supposed to viewq a mass murdering creature as the ultimate manifestation of justice and love, when he shows no particular ability or consistency with either.
    wow I have never herd of a Maltheist very intersting, so god is real but evil orders killings rape child sacrafice etc. for this to be true you have to at least admit the bible is wrong as we have seen the god of the bible sees these acts as detestable.
    Were do you get your history, not sure if you meant to type it but you just claimed the holocaust was because of christinaity. That is a amzing and false claim right there.

    quotes from Adolf Hitler
    Night of 11th-12th July, 1941:

    National Socialism and religion cannot exist together.... The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity.... Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things. (p 6 & 7)

    10th October, 1941, midday:

    Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure. (p 43)
    14th October, 1941, midday:

    The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death.... When understanding of the universe has become widespread... Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity.... Christianity has reached the peak of absurdity.... And that's why someday its structure will collapse.... ...the only way to get rid of Christianity is to allow it to die little by little.... Christianity the liar.... We'll see to it that the Churches cannot spread abroad teachings in conflict with the interests of the State. (p 49-52)
    19th October, 1941, night:

    The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity.
    13th December, 1941, midnight:

    Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless, nor any more indecent way of turning the idea of the Godhead into a mockery.... .... When all is said, we have no reason to wish that the Italians and Spaniards should free themselves from the drug of Christianity. Let's be the only people who are immunised against the disease. (p 118 & 119)


    I could go on and on


    why do you not seem mad at mass murders by athist.


    you keep claiming slavery and rape orderd by god as I have shown both were punishable by death in OT and never orderd by god and faught aginst by god, I know of the 40 shekels passage as well and please bring it up when I do my trhead on slavery and other objections to the bible. You act like if a athist website makes a claim it must be true and there is no poisblity it means something else or the circumstances could be efecting the reason for passage.

    You than make a outstanding claim the cannaites did not child sacrafice etc or do these sins the bible says they did you said no chance, well what do you base that on? no evidence,meanwhile any archolgist or biblical scholor will tell you they did. It was part of there coluture we have found there temples there gods as I said they burned alive children to there god that was a half bull half man furnace. There decendants moved to carthange well know for child sacrafice the reason the romans hated them.

    You than claim there crime was not beliving in god,were do you get that from? there crimes were many some of witch were

    36 They worshiped their idols,
    which became a snare to them.
    37 They sacrificed their sons
    and their daughters to false gods.
    38 They shed innocent blood,
    the blood of their sons and daughters,
    whom they sacrificed to the idols of Canaan,
    and the land was desecrated by their blood.
    39 They defiled themselves by what they did;
    by their deeds they prostituted themselves.
    psalm 106 36-38


    4 "Do not think in your heart, after the LORD your God has cast them out before you, saying, ‘Because of my righteousness the LORD has brought me in to possess this land’; but it is because of the wickedness of these nations that the LORD is driving them out from before you.
    Deuteronomy 9:4


    Tell me were he mass murdered? 3% of poulation prabably all soilders the cananites who would not leave make peace trety or join isreal and stayed and faught were killed, they would and did atack inocent isrealites first and would have kept doing so. Also after 400 years god says they deserved judgment. Would you say hitler should have been left alone 400 years?untill we atacked him? that would be imoral in my opnion. Please tell me how moa and stalin should be forgivem?why?

    also god is a just good judge he is also love and judges because he loves


    I used to think that wrath was unworthy of God. Isn't God love? Shouldn't divine love be beyond wrath? ?God is love,and God loves every person and every creature. That's exactly why God is wrathful against some of them. My last resistance to the idea of God's wrath was a casualty of the war in the former Yugoslavia, a region from which I come. According to some estimates, 200,000 people were killed, and over 3,000,000 were displaced. My villages and cities were destroyed, my people shelled day in and day out, some of them brutalize beyond imagination, and I could not imagine God not being angry. Or think of Rwanda in the last decade of the past century, where 800,000 people were hacked to death in one hundred days! How did God react to the carnage? By doting on the perpetrators in a grandfatherly fashion? By refusing to condemn the bloodbath but instead affirming th perpetrators' basic goodness? Wasn't God fiercely angry with them? Though I used to complain about the indecency of the idea of God's wrath, I cam to thin that I would have to rebel against a God who wasn't wrathful at the sight of the world' evil. God isn't wrathful in spite of being love. God is wrathful because God is love (Miroslav Volf as quoted in Is God a Moral Monster? by Paul Copan, 192).


    know tell me what kind of loving god could not judge his creation and allow what happens to go on? what of all those babies being burned alive, if we saw this today going on would we not be just and loving to stop it? would you call ajudge who orders a death sentance aginst a cerial killer A murdered?



    "'Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked?,' says the Lord God, 'And not rather that he should turn from his way and live? For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone,' says the Lord God. 'So turn and live! Say to them, "As I live," says the Lord God, "I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways. For why will you die?"'" (Ez. 18.23,32; 33.11).
     
     
    "The Lord is not willing that any should perish but that all should reach repentance" (2Pet. 3.9).

    "He desires all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth" (1Tim. 2.4).
    Last edited by total relism; March 13, 2012 at 04:57 AM.


    “I am in fact, a hobbit in all but size”― J.R.R. Tolkien









  11. #11

    Default Re: Who should we fear A genocide from, christians or radical enviromentalist [total relism] vs [justicar]

    Quote Originally Posted by total relism View Post
    wow I have never herd of a Maltheist very intersting, so god is real but evil orders killings rape child sacrafice etc. for this to be true you have to at least admit the bible is wrong as we have seen the god of the bible sees these acts as detestable.
    Were do you get your history, not sure if you meant to type it but you just claimed the holocaust was because of christinaity. That is a amzing and false claim right there.

    quotes from Adolf Hitler
    Night of 11th-12th July, 1941:

    National Socialism and religion cannot exist together.... The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity.... Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things. (p 6 & 7)

    10th October, 1941, midday:

    Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure. (p 43)
    14th October, 1941, midday:

    The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death.... When understanding of the universe has become widespread... Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity.... Christianity has reached the peak of absurdity.... And that's why someday its structure will collapse.... ...the only way to get rid of Christianity is to allow it to die little by little.... Christianity the liar.... We'll see to it that the Churches cannot spread abroad teachings in conflict with the interests of the State. (p 49-52)
    19th October, 1941, night:

    The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity.
    13th December, 1941, midnight:

    Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless, nor any more indecent way of turning the idea of the Godhead into a mockery.... .... When all is said, we have no reason to wish that the Italians and Spaniards should free themselves from the drug of Christianity. Let's be the only people who are immunised against the disease. (p 118 & 119)


    I could go on and on


    why do you not seem mad at mass murders by athist.


    you keep claiming slavery and rape orderd by god as I have shown both were punishable by death in OT and never orderd by god and faught aginst by god, I know of the 40 shekels passage as well and please bring it up when I do my trhead on slavery and other objections to the bible. You act like if a athist website makes a claim it must be true and there is no poisblity it means something else or the circumstances could be efecting the reason for passage.

    You than make a outstanding claim the cannaites did not child sacrafice etc or do these sins the bible says they did you said no chance, well what do you base that on? no evidence,meanwhile any archolgist or biblical scholor will tell you they did. It was part of there coluture we have found there temples there gods as I said they burned alive children to there god that was a half bull half man furnace. There decendants moved to carthange well know for child sacrafice the reason the romans hated them.

    You than claim there crime was not beliving in god,were do you get that from? there crimes were many some of witch were

    36 They worshiped their idols,
    which became a snare to them.
    37 They sacrificed their sons
    and their daughters to false gods.
    38 They shed innocent blood,
    the blood of their sons and daughters,
    whom they sacrificed to the idols of Canaan,
    and the land was desecrated by their blood.
    39 They defiled themselves by what they did;
    by their deeds they prostituted themselves.
    psalm 106 36-38


    4 "Do not think in your heart, after the LORD your God has cast them out before you, saying, ‘Because of my righteousness the LORD has brought me in to possess this land’; but it is because of the wickedness of these nations that the LORD is driving them out from before you.
    Deuteronomy 9:4


    Tell me were he mass murdered? 3% of poulation prabably all soilders the cananites who would not leave make peace trety or join isreal and stayed and faught were killed, they would and did atack inocent isrealites first and would have kept doing so. Also after 400 years god says they deserved judgment. Would you say hitler should have been left alone 400 years?untill we atacked him? that would be imoral in my opnion. Please tell me how moa and stalin should be forgivem?why?

    also god is a just good judge he is also love and judges because he loves


    I used to think that wrath was unworthy of God. Isn't God love? Shouldn't divine love be beyond wrath? ?God is love,and God loves every person and every creature. That's exactly why God is wrathful against some of them. My last resistance to the idea of God's wrath was a casualty of the war in the former Yugoslavia, a region from which I come. According to some estimates, 200,000 people were killed, and over 3,000,000 were displaced. My villages and cities were destroyed, my people shelled day in and day out, some of them brutalize beyond imagination, and I could not imagine God not being angry. Or think of Rwanda in the last decade of the past century, where 800,000 people were hacked to death in one hundred days! How did God react to the carnage? By doting on the perpetrators in a grandfatherly fashion? By refusing to condemn the bloodbath but instead affirming th perpetrators' basic goodness? Wasn't God fiercely angry with them? Though I used to complain about the indecency of the idea of God's wrath, I cam to thin that I would have to rebel against a God who wasn't wrathful at the sight of the world' evil. God isn't wrathful in spite of being love. God is wrathful because God is love (Miroslav Volf as quoted in Is God a Moral Monster? by Paul Copan, 192).


    know tell me what kind of loving god could not judge his creation and allow what happens to go on? what of all those babies being burned alive, if we saw this today going on would we not be just and loving to stop it? would you call ajudge who orders a death sentance aginst a cerial killer A murdered?



    "'Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked?,' says the Lord God, 'And not rather that he should turn from his way and live? For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone,' says the Lord God. 'So turn and live! Say to them, "As I live," says the Lord God, "I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways. For why will you die?"'" (Ez. 18.23,32; 33.11).
     
     
    "The Lord is not willing that any should perish but that all should reach repentance" (2Pet. 3.9).

    "He desires all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth" (1Tim. 2.4).

    Counter Quote from Hitler spoilering it as it is a wall of text:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    In a speech delivered April 12, 1922, published in "My New Order," and quoted in Freethought Today (April 1990), Hitler said:
    My feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter.
    In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was his fight against the Jewish poison.
    Today, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed his blood upon the Cross.
    As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice . . .
    And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly, it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people. And when I look on my people I see them work and work and toil and labor, and at the end of the week they have only for their wages wretchedness and misery.
    When I go out in the morning and see these men standing in their queues and look into their pinched faces, then I believe I would be no Christian, but a very devil, if I felt no pity for them, if I did not, as did our Lord two thousand years ago, turn against those by whom today this poor people are plundered and exploited.""


    37 They sacrificed their sons
    and their daughters to false gods.
    38 They shed innocent blood,
    the blood of their sons and daughters,
    whom they sacrificed to the idols of Canaan,
    and the land was desecrated by their blood.
    39 They defiled themselves by what they did;
    by their deeds they prostituted themselves.
    psalm 106 36-38

    4 "Do not think in your heart, after the LORD your God has cast them out before you, saying, ‘Because of my righteousness the LORD has brought me in to possess this land’; but it is because of the wickedness of these nations that the LORD is driving them out from before you.
    Deuteronomy 9:4
    We have only the word of the people who killed them for this. That's the issue, it reeks of victors justification. Oh and cannibalism? That happens in cities under siege, happened in ww2 may be happening now in Syria, especially when defeat means annihilation, as the Israelis had made clear it did.

    'Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked?,' says the Lord God, 'And not rather that he should turn from his way and live? For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone,' says the Lord God. 'So turn and live! Say to them, "As I live," says the Lord God, "I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways. For why will you die?"'" (Ez. 18.23,32; 33.11).
    Here we have: Stop being 'wicked' (meaning not grovelling, to a creature that threatens infinite torture and death, the word for that is 'Tyrant'), why given his acts and his words should we? No loyalty can be owed to a creature that murders and tortures on such a scale? Especially as the punishment is one he instigated by his own design!

    So Stalin and Mao where fine, they only tortured those who didn't bend the knee..so just like God!
    Last edited by justicar5; March 13, 2012 at 11:46 AM.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Who should we fear A genocide from, christians or radical enviromentalist [total relism] vs [justicar]

    Quote Originally Posted by justicar5 View Post
    Counter Quote from Hitler spoilering it as it is a wall of text:

    We have only the word of the people who killed them for this. That's the issue, it reeks of victors justification. Oh and cannibalism? That happens in cities under siege, happened in ww2 may be happening now in Syria, especially when defeat means annihilation, as the Israelis had made clear it did.

    Here we have: Stop being 'wicked' (meaning not grovelling, to a creature that threatens infinite torture and death, the word for that is 'Tyrant'), why given his acts and his words should we? No loyalty can be owed to a creature that murders and tortures on such a scale? Especially as the punishment is one he instigated by his own design!

    So Stalin and Mao where fine, they only tortured those who didn't bend the knee..so just like God!

    Im sorry im really losing you in this discusion, you have no topic at all, no reasons to belive as you do, you just make unsuported claims over and over. Im not sure if any of what you just said had anything to do with topic. Its hard to reply when you offer nothing to suport claims.

    hitler qoute notice its from 1920 mine from 1940's to argue that hitler killed the jews because they killed jesus is laghable, he killed them because they were not human less than human apes evolution etc ask any neo nazi today why they hate jews see how many say because they killed jesus.

    also read his qoute he is not a chritian he is a nazi this is were history can help us understand both your qoute and the many I posted Ill post a few more that would seem to contridict each other[notice mine were during and right before ww2]
    Hitler had to convice germany of his beliefs he did so throgh propaganda, the leading opnents of his beliefs was the church in germany so he changed the bible and took over the church to fit his beliefs.

    Heschel, S., The Aryan Jesus: Christian Theologians and the Bible in Nazi Germany, Princeton University press, USA, 2008






    some of the changes they made
    1. Jesus the Saviour—a life of Jesus based on excerpts from the synoptic Gospels, expunged of OT prophecy fulfillment, and reorganized to present Jesus as a warrior, not a servant or meek or the Lamb of God.
    2. Jesus the Son of God—a condensed version of the Gospel of John to show the theological significance of Jesus’ actions.
    3. Jesus the Lord—brief excerpts from various Epistles concerning hope, comfort, community of God, etc.
    4. The Emergence of the Christian Community—based on Acts, Paul’s Epistles (without his Jewish biography), his mission to the Gentiles, and his break with the Judaizers of Palestine.
    Jewish references were retained only where they were deemed negative to Judaism. Omitted were the genealogies of Jesus linking him to the OT patriarchs. The baby Jesus was brought to the temple to bring him to God, but was merely given a name, not circumcized. In the Sermon on the Mount, there was no blessing for the merciful. The Sabbath became ‘holiday’.
    The text associated Jesus with Galilee. Liberal German theologians had taught since the early 1900s that Galilee was supposedly populated by racially Aryan Gentiles in the 8th century BC following the Assyrian conquest of Israel, thereby opposing Jesus’ identity as a Jew (p. 57).
    In his own book, Jesus the Galilean, Grundmann advocated that Mary was not a Jew, and Jesus had an illegitimate father: a Roman soldier named Panther (or Panthera) (p. 155). Ironically, this is an ancient libel from Celsus and anti-Christian Jews attacking Jesus’ legitimacy (“ben Panthera/Pandera”). However, the Gospel was clearly presented in Jesus’ discussion with Nicodemus, especially in John 3:16.
    By the end of 1941, 200,000 copies of Die Botschaft Gottes had been sold or distributed to members of the German Christians movement, including soldiers (p. 111). Some pastors and scholars in the Confessing Church wrote pamphlets or spoke against it. After the War, most copies were destroyed, with only two or three still known to exist.
    A catechism for the times

    In 1941, the Institute was involved in producing Germans with God: a German Catechism.5 “It omitted traditional doctrinal positions regarding miracles, virgin birth, incarnation, resurrection, and so forth, in favor of positioning Jesus as a human being who struggled on behalf of God and died not only as a martyr, but also a ‘victor’ on the cross, despite being a victim of the Jews” (pp. 126–27).





    It (not the ‘Nazi Bible’, as has been reported) contained 12 revised Commandments in place of the OT ten:
    1. Honor God and believe in him wholeheartedly.
    2. Seek out the peace of God.
    3. Avoid all hypocrisy.
    4. Holy is your health and life.
    5. Holy is your well-being and honor.
    6. Holy is your truth and fidelity.
    7. Honor your father and mother—your children are your aid and your example.
    8. Keep the blood pure and the marriage holy.
    9. Maintain and multiply the heritage of your forefathers.
    10. Be ready to help and forgive.
    11. Honor your Führer and master.
    12. Joyously serve the people with work and sacrifice.
    The Institute’s perverse attempt to marry Christianity to Nazism was not reciprocated by the Nazis.






    Perhaps divine prohibitions of murder, theft, and covetousness were deemed inappropriate for a ‘survival-of-the-fittest’ ideology that was instrumental in the then ongoing pillage of Europe.

    14th December, 1941, midday:

    Kerrl, with noblest of intentions, wanted to attempt a synthesis between National Socialism and Christianity. I don't believe the thing's possible, and I see the obstacle in Christianity itself.... Pure Christianity-- the Christianity of the catacombs-- is concerned with translating Christian doctrine into facts. It leads quite simply to the annihilation of mankind. It is merely whole-hearted Bolshevism, under a tinsel of metaphysics. (p 119 & 120)


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    It would always be disagreeable for me to go down to posterity as a man who made concessions in this field. I realize that man, in his imperfection, can commit innumerable errors-- but to devote myself deliberately to errors, that is something I cannot do. I shall never come personally to terms with the Christian lie. Our epoch in the next 200 years will certainly see the end of the disease of Christianity.... My regret will have been that I couldn't... behold it ." (p 278)


    From "Hitler's Secret Conversations 1941-1944", published by Farrar, Straus and Young, Inc. first edition, 1953, The book was published in Britain under the title, "Hitler's Table Talk 1941-1944", which title was used for the Oxford University Press paperback edition in the United States.



    on justification
    we have more than the victories word as I just said last post we have archology history other nations vs your word 3,000 years later who thinks the halacast was because jews killed jesus. If we cant trust the bible than you cant use it as saying god is evil because we cant trust what it saysmthink it throgh your arguments first.

    I have no idea what your talking about with canabalism and anhailation agagin you give me nothing just a bunch of statements. Im not seeing a point to this disucsion I thoght we had one topic to discuss and your really just making statments.

    your last staements agagin has been anwsered last post and the one before,I get the feeling you care nothing of wanting to understand but rather make illogical connections and baseless staements, based on your own misguided understanding of god.

    from a recent article i read fits you perfectly

    When I was a child, my father beat me, left my mom, and once killed a defenseless animal with his bare hands. With that information you could be quite justified in saying that my father was an abusive pig of a man.
    But you’re missing some information. He physically corrected me when I lied or stole. He left Mom because he worked long hours to financially take care of his beloved family. When he found a helpless dying animal on the side of the road, he put the poor animal out of its misery, and it grieved him to do so. The missing information shows that my dad was a very loving man
    http://www.answersingenesis.org/arti...create-mankind
    Last edited by total relism; March 13, 2012 at 12:18 PM.


    “I am in fact, a hobbit in all but size”― J.R.R. Tolkien









  13. #13

    Default Re: Who should we fear A genocide from, christians or radical enviromentalist [total relism] vs [justicar]

    Quote Originally Posted by total relism View Post

    we have more than the victories word as I just said last post we have archology history other nations vs your word 3,000 years later who thinks the halacast was because jews killed jesus. If we cant trust the bible than you cant use it as saying god is evil because we cant trust what it saysmthink it throgh your arguments first.

    I have no idea what your talking about with canabalism and anhailation agagin you give me nothing just a bunch of statements. Im not seeing a point to this disucsion I thoght we had one topic to discuss and your really just making statments.

    your last staements agagin has been anwsered last post and the one before,I get the feeling you care nothing of wanting to understand but rather make illogical connections and baseless staements, based on your own misguided understanding of god.

    from a recent article i read fits you perfectly

    When I was a child, my father beat me, left my mom, and once killed a defenseless animal with his bare hands. With that information you could be quite justified in saying that my father was an abusive pig of a man.
    But you’re missing some information. He physically corrected me when I lied or stole. He left Mom because he worked long hours to financially take care of his beloved family. When he found a helpless dying animal on the side of the road, he put the poor animal out of its misery, and it grieved him to do so. The missing information shows that my dad was a very loving man
    http://www.answersingenesis.org/arti...create-mankind
    Answers in genesis is not a source, it is a propaganda mouth piece for the Christian Taliban. And has supported numerous acts of terrorism on US soil (blowing up hospitals, murdering doctors etc)

    Also avoids the point! AGAIN! God DID order Genocide, we DO NOT have any other source apart from the propaganda of the victors (the bible) that the targets 'deserved it' and it included forced marriage of prepubescent girls to the killers of their parents, the complete annihilation of their people, and the theft of their lands. Either God exists and ordered this genocide, a crime for which there can be no forgiveness, or he doesn't and so it was just bronze age barbarism, that's the point, that's the fork: Either god is a genocidal monster, as portrayed in the OT and endorsed in the NT or he doesn't exist, you either worship a monster or a delusion.

    You have not refuted any of my points you have instead tried to justify the crimes, by denying that they where crimes.

    I never claimed the Holocaust was entirely about that (human hate played it's part as well, along with jealousy and xenophobia) but the idea of jews as christ killers was front and centre to anti-Semitism, and indeed the Church prayed that the jews would convert and give up their 'greedy ways'.

    So in summary: The nation of Israel alleges in it's holy text that a) the Canaanites where somehow worse than everyone else in the region (doubtful in the extreme) and that there religious duty was to kill every single one of them apart from the ones they kept as rape slaves...and your fine with that.

    It is very easy to see what is true in the bible: if it causes suffering and death on a massive scale: That instruction is true, if it tries to justify that behaviour, well then you need a lot more evidence.

    Oh and the point about Mao and Stalin? The point was the should never be forgiven, they commited genocide, same as your god, an unforgivable crime (unless you use your logic in which case what they did was not a crime at all)

    Also sources that aren't from supporters of terror would be good.
    Last edited by justicar5; March 13, 2012 at 02:33 PM.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Who should we fear A genocide from, christians or radical enviromentalist [total relism] vs [justicar]

    Quote Originally Posted by justicar5 View Post
    Answers in genesis is not a source, it is a propaganda mouth piece for the Christian Taliban. And has supported numerous acts of terrorism on US soil (blowing up hospitals, murdering doctors etc)
    .
    This is just what I mean by unsuported claims, im starting to get the feelingg your just messing with me to take my time up is this true? not to mention lets pretend what you say your unsuported claim is true that does nothing to show what it says is wrong in anyway,as it is oviusly correct.



    Quote Originally Posted by justicar5 View Post
    Also avoids the point! AGAIN! God DID order Genocide, we DO NOT have any other source apart from the propaganda of the victors (the bible) that the targets 'deserved it' and it included forced marriage of prepubescent girls to the killers of their parents, the complete annihilation of their people, and the theft of their lands. Either God exists and ordered this genocide, a crime for which there can be no forgiveness, or he doesn't and so it was just bronze age barbarism, that's the point, that's the fork: Either god is a genocidal monster, as portrayed in the OT and endorsed in the NT or he doesn't exist, you either worship a monster or a delusion.
    .
    Please show were god orderd genocide I have yet to see it, we have evidence from rightings from near eastern countries from romans later from archology that they regularly child sacraficed,we have there gods they worshipped half bull half man furnaces,child remains from sacrafices well know im not sure what your going to pretend here etc. This also shows your belief strang because you say god ordered child sacrafice, yet than says it detestable and worthy of judgment, how can the cannanite god also be the god of the bible. Again your unsuported claim has been responded to and false about orderd genocide and rape and untill you respond to my responces I feel no need to reply.

    I want to show you how you argue,how old are you? just wanting to know.

    herse you

    you say- there are 20 letters in the english alphabat

    someone shows there are 26

    you ignore and say but I showed you there are 20 i showed all 20

    someone again shows there are 26

    you ignore no I made a statement there are 20 so there are 20 and I showed each individuale one

    somehow in your mind you only let in what you want to here.





    Quote Originally Posted by justicar5 View Post
    You have not refuted any of my points you have instead tried to justify the crimes, by denying that they where crimes.
    .
    what are you talking about rape? as I said it is just what happened not what god wanted.


    Quote Originally Posted by justicar5 View Post
    I never claimed the Holocaust was entirely about that (human hate played it's part as well, along with jealousy and xenophobia) but the idea of jews as christ killers was front and centre to anti-Semitism, and indeed the Church prayed that the jews would convert and give up their 'greedy ways'.
    .

    great statment, not sure what this claim has to do with our topic, but I would not entirely disagree with second part because as I said hitler took over the church and changed it. the first part will go down as yet another unsuported claim.


    Quote Originally Posted by justicar5 View Post
    So in summary: The nation of Israel alleges in it's holy text that a) the Canaanites where somehow worse than everyone else in the region (doubtful in the extreme) and that there religious duty was to kill every single one of them apart from the ones they kept as rape slaves...and your fine with that.
    .
    not at all why would I be, please suport this claim, i would be ok with god after 400 years of child sacrafice finnally stoping it, it would indeed be a evil god as you belive to make his creation and let them burn babies alive for so long.


    Quote Originally Posted by justicar5 View Post
    It is very easy to see what is true in the bible: if it causes suffering and death on a massive scale: That instruction is true, if it tries to justify that behaviour, well then you need a lot more evidence.
    .

    you base this on what?besides your preconcived biases, than there is evidence as I have told you look into archlogy in the areas of jericho and cannan at that time period I think its late bronze period, also we have documents about cannan life style from egyptan pharoahs and than later romans.
    A great mag just came out on it https://www.biblearchaeology.org/boo...ct.aspx?id=178




    Quote Originally Posted by justicar5 View Post
    Oh and the point about Mao and Stalin? The point was the should never be forgiven, they commited genocide, same as your god, an unforgivable crime (unless you use your logic in which case what they did was not a crime at all)

    Also sources that aren't from supporters of terror would be good.
    many difrences you continue to ignore so ill just repost this, also when did god commit genocide? .


    When I was a child, my father beat me, left my mom, and once killed a defenseless animal with his bare hands. With that information you could be quite justified in saying that my father was an abusive pig of a man.
    But you’re missing some information. He physically corrected me when I lied or stole. He left Mom because he worked long hours to financially take care of his beloved family. When he found a helpless dying animal on the side of the road, he put the poor animal out of its misery, and it grieved him to do so. The missing information shows that my dad was a very loving man
    http://www.answersingenesis.org/arti...create-mankind


    Ive been looking thorgh your entire post agin I cant find it you seem to think you have, could you please tell me were you think you posted something were god commited genocide.
    Last edited by total relism; March 14, 2012 at 04:26 AM.


    “I am in fact, a hobbit in all but size”― J.R.R. Tolkien









  15. #15

    Default Re: Who should we fear A genocide from, christians or radical enviromentalist [total relism] vs [justicar]

    Quote Originally Posted by total relism View Post
    This is just what I mean by unsuported claims, im starting to get the feelingg your just messing with me to take my time up is this true? not to mention lets pretend what you say your unsuported claim is true that does nothing to show what it says is wrong in anyway,as it is oviusly correct.





    Please show were god orderd genocide I have yet to see it, we have evidence from rightings from near eastern countries from romans later from archology that they regularly child sacraficed,we have there gods they worshipped half bull half man furnaces,child remains from sacrafices well know im not sure what your going to pretend here etc. This also shows your belief strang because you say god ordered child sacrafice, yet than says it detestable and worthy of judgment, how can the cannanite god also be the god of the bible. Again your unsuported claim has been responded to and false about orderd genocide and rape and untill you respond to my responces I feel no need to reply.

    I want to show you how you argue,how old are you? just wanting to know.

    herse you

    you say- there are 20 letters in the english alphabat

    someone shows there are 26

    you ignore and say but I showed you there are 20 i showed all 20

    someone again shows there are 26

    you ignore no I made a statement there are 20 so there are 20 and I showed each individuale one

    somehow in your mind you only let in what you want to here.







    what are you talking about rape? as I said it is just what happened not what god wanted.





    great statment, not sure what this claim has to do with our topic, but I would not entirely disagree with second part because as I said hitler took over the church and changed it. the first part will go down as yet another unsuported claim.




    not at all why would I be, please suport this claim, i would be ok with god after 400 years of child sacrafice finnally stoping it, it would indeed be a evil god as you belive to make his creation and let them burn babies alive for so long.





    you base this on what?besides your preconcived biases, than there is evidence as I have told you look into archlogy in the areas of jericho and cannan at that time period I think its late bronze period, also we have documents about cannan life style from egyptan pharoahs and than later romans.
    A great mag just came out on it https://www.biblearchaeology.org/boo...ct.aspx?id=178






    many difrences you continue to ignore so ill just repost this, also when did god commit genocide? .


    When I was a child, my father beat me, left my mom, and once killed a defenseless animal with his bare hands. With that information you could be quite justified in saying that my father was an abusive pig of a man.
    But you’re missing some information. He physically corrected me when I lied or stole. He left Mom because he worked long hours to financially take care of his beloved family. When he found a helpless dying animal on the side of the road, he put the poor animal out of its misery, and it grieved him to do so. The missing information shows that my dad was a very loving man
    http://www.answersingenesis.org/arti...create-mankind


    Ive been looking thorgh your entire post agin I cant find it you seem to think you have, could you please tell me were you think you posted something were god commited genocide.

    We do have god ordering genocide it's the entire point! You are stating that it was 'only a few people' but yet in Numbers (you see another book of the bible another at least mass killing and ethnic cleansing, this is the King James Bible:

    50And the LORD spake unto Moses in the plains of Moab by Jordan near Jericho, saying, 51Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye are passed over Jordan into the land of Canaan; 52Then ye shall drive out all the inhabitants of the land from before you, and destroy all their pictures, and destroy all their molten images, and quite pluck down all their high places: 53And ye shall dispossess the inhabitants of the land, and dwell therein: for I have given you the land to possess it. 54And ye shall divide the land by lot for an inheritance among your families: and to the more ye shall give the more inheritance, and to the fewer ye shall give the less inheritance: every man's inheritance shall be in the place where his lot falleth; according to the tribes of your fathers ye shall inherit. 55But if ye will not drive out the inhabitants of the land from before you; then it shall come to pass, that those which ye let remain of them shall be pricks in your eyes, and thorns in your sides, and shall vex you in the land wherein ye dwell
    ok, another example this time of God setting up events that allow mass killing by him: Exodus:
    Chapter 10

    1 And the LORD said unto Moses, Go in unto Pharaoh: for I have hardened his heart, and the heart of his servants, that I might shew these my signs before him
    Pharaoh had been willing to let the Israelites go, after the plagues already visited upon Egypt: but GOD hardened Pharaohs heart, meaning stopped Pharaoh using his free will, so that God could have a 'justification' for killing more Egyptians (including the first born of egypt).

    Why should that be forgiven?

    And here we are : God through Moses commanding rape of female war captives:
    And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? ... Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves. -- Numbers 31:15-18
    Oh and if it's any of your business I am 32.
    Last edited by justicar5; March 14, 2012 at 12:06 PM.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Who should we fear A genocide from, christians or radical enviromentalist [total relism] vs [justicar]

    Quote Originally Posted by justicar5 View Post
    We do have god ordering genocide it's the entire point! You are stating that it was 'only a few people' but yet in Numbers (you see another book of the bible another at least mass killing and ethnic cleansing, this is the King James Bible:
    ok, another example this time of God setting up events that allow mass killing by him: Exodus:
    ?
    You say another were was the first? you keep claming he ordered genocide but dont back it up how many times and chances do you need to show evidence for your claim. What does this passage have to do with genocide? This has to do with god promising isreal the land he would give them. To stay seperate from there religon child burning etc.



    Quote Originally Posted by justicar5 View Post
    Pharaoh had been willing to let the Israelites go, after the plagues already visited upon Egypt: but GOD hardened Pharaohs heart, meaning stopped Pharaoh using his free will, so that God could have a 'justification' for killing more Egyptians (including the first born of egypt).

    Why should that be forgiven?
    before i respond What does this have to do with chirtians starting A genocide today?

    So to respond, you are false on a few points, read v 33-35 of chapter 9 right before what you posted


    33 Then Moses left Pharaoh and went out of the city. He spread out his hands toward the LORD; the thunder and hail stopped, and the rain no longer poured down on the land. 34 When Pharaoh saw that the rain and hail and thunder had stopped, he sinned again: He and his officials hardened their hearts. 35 So Pharaoh’s heart was hard and he would not let the Israelites go, just as the LORD had said through Moses.


    pharoah over and over hardened his own heart, and what god did in later plagues was hardend is translated from a word meaning courage and stregthand. God allowed him to do what his heart desired. Also your claim to kill more egytians showes you have never read the book you atack as noone was killed up to this point. If what you say is true why would pharoah later allow people to go? if god hardend his heart,not to mention the plaues were to show egytians and isreal he was the one and only true god and the nile frogs cows pharoah firstborn were not gods, many egytians left with isreal and joined isreal after the plagues and any egyptian who put the blood of a lahm on doorpost never saw judgment. Than dont forget they were not without sin themselves.

    they throgh babies ino the nile because of poulation of isrealites and enslaved the isrealites for 200 years.
     So Pharaoh commanded all his people, saying, "Every son who is born[c] you shall cast into the river
    exodus 1.22a
    "When you serve as midwife to the Hebrew women and see them on the birthstool, if it is a son, you shall kill him, but if it is a daughter, she shall live
    exodus 1.16


    I was watching a video today it fits you perfectly. Beware from teriost groups who bomb hospitalsmight want to start on video 2 I know your sure to watch them.
    http://www.answersingenesis.org/medi...s/seven-habits


    my post will most likley become less common more time in between as I really dont think you care to have this discusion and I will be starting threads in main forum slavery will be one of them so your welcome to post over there.
    Last edited by total relism; March 14, 2012 at 01:24 PM.


    “I am in fact, a hobbit in all but size”― J.R.R. Tolkien









  17. #17

    Default Re: Who should we fear A genocide from, christians or radical enviromentalist [total relism] vs [justicar]

    Quote Originally Posted by total relism View Post
    You say another were was the first? you keep claming he ordered genocide but dont back it up how many times and chances do you need to show evidence for your claim. What does this passage have to do with genocide? This has to do with god promising isreal the land he would give them. To stay seperate from there religon child burning etc.





    before i respond What does this have to do with chirtians starting A genocide today?

    So to respond, you are false on a few points, read v 33-35 of chapter 9 right before what you posted


    33 Then Moses left Pharaoh and went out of the city. He spread out his hands toward the LORD; the thunder and hail stopped, and the rain no longer poured down on the land. 34 When Pharaoh saw that the rain and hail and thunder had stopped, he sinned again: He and his officials hardened their hearts. 35 So Pharaoh’s heart was hard and he would not let the Israelites go, just as the LORD had said through Moses.


    pharoah over and over hardened his own heart, and what god did in later plagues was hardend is translated from a word meaning courage and stregthand. God allowed him to do what his heart desired. Also your claim to kill more egytians showes you have never read the book you atack as noone was killed up to this point. If what you say is true why would pharoah later allow people to go? if god hardend his heart,not to mention the plaues were to show egytians and isreal he was the one and only true god and the nile frogs cows pharoah firstborn were not gods, many egytians left with isreal and joined isreal after the plagues and any egyptian who put the blood of a lahm on doorpost never saw judgment. Than dont forget they were not without sin themselves.

    they throgh babies ino the nile because of poulation of isrealites and enslaved the isrealites for 200 years.
     So Pharaoh commanded all his people, saying, "Every son who is born[c] you shall cast into the river
    exodus 1.22a
    "When you serve as midwife to the Hebrew women and see them on the birthstool, if it is a son, you shall kill him, but if it is a daughter, she shall live
    exodus 1.16


    I was watching a video today it fits you perfectly. Beware from teriost groups who bomb hospitalsmight want to start on video 2 I know your sure to watch them.
    http://www.answersingenesis.org/medi...s/seven-habits


    my post will most likley become less common more time in between as I really dont think you care to have this discusion and I will be starting threads in main forum slavery will be one of them so your welcome to post over there.

    The first was the Leviticus/Deuteronomy quotes that I linked. They are a clear case of genocide, you claimed they where not, but the word of god was clear, kill and rape them all. You disputed this so I provided more, which you then ignored. So apparently nothing can be genocide if the faithful do it, just like nothing AiG support (like the killing of doctors and the bombing of hospitals) is a crime in your eyes.

    It is disappointing to see you supporting religious terrorism. You must by the standard you are showing here be an ardent supporter of Al Quiada.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Who should we fear A genocide from, christians or radical enviromentalist [total relism] vs [justicar]

    Quote Originally Posted by justicar5 View Post
    The first was the Leviticus/Deuteronomy quotes that I linked. They are a clear case of genocide, you claimed they where not, but the word of god was clear, kill and rape them all. You disputed this so I provided more, which you then ignored. So apparently nothing can be genocide if the faithful do it, just like nothing AiG support (like the killing of doctors and the bombing of hospitals) is a crime in your eyes.

    It is disappointing to see you supporting religious terrorism. You must by the standard you are showing here be an ardent supporter of Al Quiada.
    I will refer you to all my responces that you ignored when you claimed genocide before this is why this discusion goes nowere untill you respond to my responces it cant go anywere.

    I had A question for you,what course of action would you take if a part of your town was sacraficing all first born babies and doing all kinds of sin, know it has been going on generation after generation and you have tried to talk with them and show there ways to be wrong. You have asked them to stop,to leave there ways and come live in your part of town, or to move away from you or to just make peace and not atack you or try to convert your poulation to this kind of behavior.
    Nothing has worked and they are set on spreading this kind of behavour what would you do?

    I have shown you much that you ignore on why its not genocide to witch you ignore, i feel you are not intersted in learning the bible but in making it fit into your preconcived ideas beliefs of what god must be,because you oviuslly have not read the bible given your exodus and joshua qoutes as well as you seem to still be saying god ordered rape and genocide. Acording to you every judge in america that has given death penalty is guilty of genocide or every police officer who killed a murderer every military officer england america for fighting in ww2 etc.

    also ignore agagin for me post 3,4,6,and 8
    Last edited by total relism; March 14, 2012 at 03:46 PM.


    “I am in fact, a hobbit in all but size”― J.R.R. Tolkien









  19. #19

    Default Re: Who should we fear A genocide from, christians or radical enviromentalist [total relism] vs [justicar]

    Quote Originally Posted by total relism View Post
    1)I will refer you to all my responces that you ignored when you claimed genocide before this is why this discusion goes nowere untill you respond to my responces it cant go anywere.

    2)I had A question for you,what course of action would you take if a part of your town was sacraficing all first born babies and doing all kinds of sin, know it has been going on generation after generation and you have tried to talk with them and show there ways to be wrong. You have asked them to stop,to leave there ways and come live in your part of town, or to move away from you or to just make peace and not atack you or try to convert your poulation to this kind of behavior.
    Nothing has worked and they are set on spreading this kind of behavour what would you do?

    3)I have shown you much that you ignore on why its not genocide to witch you ignore, i feel you are not intersted in learning the bible but in making it fit into your preconcived ideas beliefs of what god must be,because you oviuslly have not read the bible given your exodus and joshua qoutes as well as you seem to still be saying god ordered rape and genocide. Acording to you every judge in america that has given death penalty is guilty of genocide or every police officer who killed a murderer every military officer england america for fighting in ww2 etc.

    also ignore agagin for me post 3,4,6,and 8
    1) You show me Christian apologetics, not biblical passages, apologetics is the art of making the bible less evil.

    2)Well actually have proof, but their is none for the alleged actions of Canaan just the word of the people who profited from there deaths.

    3)No, you didn't show biblical passages with god saying 'oops I didn't mean kill em all', as IS said in Exodus as well as Leviticus and Deuteronomy, kill them all being biblical war law going by that, you showed apologetics, and yes you should be very apologetic for the bible.

    On your Pharaoh hardened his own heart: That occurs BEFORE God does so, he 'hardens his heart' then another plague occurs and he relents...but god prevents him from doing so, and unleashes more plagues.

    If you are arguing what the bible says the only source is the bible, not people trying to weasel out of what the 'good book' actually says, what it says is very clear. The peaceful laws apply to the nation of Israel and all other must either perish or be enslaved.

    On a related note: Can you please get a spell checker, it is very hard to read what you are saying. (And would be hard to read what I write without the one I have)

    Support for my case that that thou shalt not kill only applies to the faithful can be found here: http://zope.gush-shalom.org/home/en/...ery/1309538748

    This is the appropriate passage:
    The book, called Torat ha-Melekh (“the Teaching of the King”) deals with the killing of Goyim. It says that in peacetime, Goyim should generally not be killed – not because of the commandment “Thou shalt not kill” which, according to the book, applies to Jews only, but because of God’s command after the Deluge (Genesis 9:6): “Whoso sheddeth man’s blood, by man shall his blood be shed, for in the image of God made he man.” This applies to all Goyim who fulfill some basic commandments.

    However, the situation is totally different in wartime. And according to the rabbis, Israel has been at war since its foundation, and probably will be for ever more.
    In war, in every place where the presence of a Goy endangers a Jew, it is permitted to kill him, even though he be a righteous goy who bears no responsibility for the situation. It is permitted – indeed, recommended – to kill not only enemy fighters, but also those who “support” or “encourage” them. It is permitted to kill enemy civilians if this is helpful for the conduct of the war.
    SO Rabbis, whose main task is interpreting the will of God as shown by the old testament, have come to the conclusion, that yes, God does say kill them all.
    Last edited by justicar5; March 15, 2012 at 11:21 AM.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Who should we fear A genocide from, christians or radical enviromentalist [total relism] vs [justicar]

    So I have been thinking, untill you notice your own worldview and how it will only allow information that fits your preconcived ideas beliefs about god you will never be able to have a fruitful discusion with me or anyone else for that matter.
    Its A type of circular reasoning, you assume to be correct that god is evil and god is behind all religons of man, so than anything that contridicts that you discard as unreliable with no logic reason for doing so, this matains your belief of A evil god. In fact to do so you must contridict your own belief in god, he is good sometimes and bad sometimes, he is at war with himself in your view.

    I also want to ask you how you determin what is good or bad,what is evil or good, you cannot use anything from any religon in the world to base it on as they are all from a evil god and aparently some passages we can trust [the ones you that fit your beliefs] and the rest are unralible. Is it just your opnion on what is good or bad? and how can you say what hitler did was bad?

    My thoghts and I could be wrong, are you dont want to admit to there is A god who judges, because you deep down know you are A sinner and dont want to ask forgivness maybe pride. Or you deep down are evil and like things like childsacrafice and dont think god should judge those people.





    Quote Originally Posted by justicar5 View Post
    1) You show me Christian apologetics, not biblical passages, apologetics is the art of making the bible less evil.
    .
    1]If you will notice I did things like qoute the whole passage were as your website left some out at to make the bible apper evil. This also shows you did not read as they were full of bible passages


    Quote Originally Posted by justicar5 View Post
    1)
    2)Well actually have proof, but their is none for the alleged actions of Canaan just the word of the people who profited from there deaths.
    .
    I will have to refer you to my earlier replies and all archlogical evidence and historical evidence I cant make you accept truth just point you in that direction if your worldview wont allow not sure what to do. Your evidence that they did not is............. were do you get your history anyways? holocaust is because jews killed jesus cannaites and there desendants never did child sacrafice those thousands of dead babies in bottles and burial sites and pagans furnace gods they worshipped must have been planted there by the jews after to justify there actions.

    So again I ask
    I had A question for you,what course of action would you take if a part of your town was sacraficing all first born babies and doing all kinds of sin, know it has been going on generation after generation and you have tried to talk with them and show there ways to be wrong. You have asked them to stop,to leave there ways and come live in your part of town, or to move away from you or to just make peace and not atack you or try to convert your poulation to this kind of behavior.
    Nothing has worked and they are set on spreading this kind of behavour what would you do?




    Quote Originally Posted by justicar5 View Post
    1)
    3)No, you didn't show biblical passages with god saying 'oops I didn't mean kill em all', as IS said in Exodus as well as Leviticus and Deuteronomy, kill them all being biblical war law going by that, you showed apologetics, and yes you should be very apologetic for the bible.
    .
    I will have to refer you to my responces again and ask were this all is? most all left before isreal invaded or made peace trety or joined isreal it most mostley only the die hard military forts who resisted. Isreal was directly ordered to kill about 3.5% of poulation most likly all military fort personal.


    also here

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    all the cananites were not wiped out judges 2.3 1.21 27-28
    battles reported in bible do not mention any non combatents killed.
    all destroyed all killed tyipical languge of day and not literal.
    conquest of cannan uses hyperbolic language such as "all"common in bible example, jesus says of the generation he was on earth in human form that it was a evil and adulterers generation and all were bad, yet other times he calls individuals ritcous.

    sterotypical langage of ancent near east, atacks lilkly on militray forts and garisions, no archlogical evidence for people civilians in teritories such as jericho or Ai these were military forts p 175 is god a moral monster paul copan
    "without predisposing the reader to asume anything further about age or gender use of woman young old is sterotypical exspression for the destruction of all human life in the fort" p 176 is god a moral monster paul copan.
    the term [ir] cities were used as outpost whole civilian populations lived in countryside. letters between pharoah and cannanite leaders show them to be distnict from each other.p176 is god a moral monster paul copan

    Josh 13 1-6 15.63 17.12 judges 1 19-34 shows not all were killed.Many forighners lived among Israel and participated in covenant ceremony josh 8 33,35. There is no mention of any woman or children being killed, other ancient near eastern documents mention this from the time period if it happened.
    http://www.amazon.com/God-Behaving-Badly-Testament-Sexist/dp/0830838260

    In Joshua 12, the victory list is given as 31 kings (generally petty kings of city-states) this would be around 70,000 people (assuming they all stayed around--a very dubious assumption in light of the international fear of Israel at the time).
    But this 70,000 is against a base of close to 2 million people! (Israel was approximately 1.6 million at the time, and these nations are said to be 'more numerous' than Israel in a number of places--e.g. Deut 7.1,7.) This amounts to approximately 3.5% of the 'target population'. The Israelites were specifically told to execute those who remained in the cities (Deut 20.16) and those who hid in the Land--and therefore did NOT migrate out--Deut 7.20




    Quote Originally Posted by justicar5 View Post
    On your Pharaoh hardened his own heart: That occurs BEFORE God does so, he 'hardens his heart' then another plague occurs and he relents...but god prevents him from doing so, and unleashes more plagues.
    .

    As I said yes god strethen his heart courage to do what he wanted, ill agagin post my reply,

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    before i respond What does this have to do with chirtians starting A genocide today?

    So to respond, you are false on a few points, read v 33-35 of chapter 9 right before what you posted


    33 Then Moses left Pharaoh and went out of the city. He spread out his hands toward the LORD; the thunder and hail stopped, and the rain no longer poured down on the land. 34 When Pharaoh saw that the rain and hail and thunder had stopped, he sinned again: He and his officials hardened their hearts. 35 So Pharaoh’s heart was hard and he would not let the Israelites go, just as the LORD had said through Moses.


    pharoah over and over hardened his own heart, and what god did in later plagues was hardend is translated from a word meaning courage and stregthand. God allowed him to do what his heart desired. Also your claim to kill more egytians showes you have never read the book you atack as noone was killed up to this point. If what you say is true why would pharoah later allow people to go? if god hardend his heart,not to mention the plaues were to show egytians and isreal he was the one and only true god and the nile frogs cows pharoah firstborn were not gods, many egytians left with isreal and joined isreal after the plagues and any egyptian who put the blood of a lahm on doorpost never saw judgment. Than dont forget they were not without sin themselves.

    they throgh babies ino the nile because of poulation of isrealites and enslaved the isrealites for 200 years.
     So Pharaoh commanded all his people, saying, "Every son who is born[c] you shall cast into the river
    exodus 1.22a
    "When you serve as midwife to the Hebrew women and see them on the birthstool, if it is a son, you shall kill him, but if it is a daughter, she shall live
    exodus 1.16





    Quote Originally Posted by justicar5 View Post
    If you are arguing what the bible says the only source is the bible, not people trying to weasel out of what the 'good book' actually says, what it says is very clear. The peaceful laws apply to the nation of Israel and all other must either perish or be enslaved.

    On a related note: Can you please get a spell checker, it is very hard to read what you are saying. (And would be hard to read what I write without the one I have)

    Support for my case that that thou shalt not kill only applies to the faithful can be found here: http://zope.gush-shalom.org/home/en/...ery/1309538748

    This is the appropriate passage:

    SO Rabbis, whose main task is interpreting the will of God as shown by the old testament, have come to the conclusion, that yes, God does say kill them all.
    This is your intepritation you belive they are trying to weesel out of something, it seems weird the bible records just when they do that pretty often, read the joshua passage you sited with v 25. Also as I mentioned all archolgical and historical evidence agrees with the bible on the cannanites but your worldview will not allow that info in because of your bias.

    As far as your suposed evidence, you can get someone to say anything, I can find you theolgian who say the bible teaches evolution its no there, show me from the bible. Also I really dont know what hes talking about what is the book of The book, called Torat ha-Melekh (“the Teaching of the King”) deals with the killing of Goyim and who are goyim?


    trying to download a spell check


    “I am in fact, a hobbit in all but size”― J.R.R. Tolkien









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